========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1993 19:00:19 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Computer-generated graphical problem sets for students The software accompanying Paper 6 is in place and available by anonymous FTP. Those interested in this area and in getting a chance to examine the program before the Conference may pick up a copy IF your system has anonymous FTP capability. FTP: info.umd.edu Path: info/Teaching/ChemConference/Paper6 For MS DOS users, PGEN10ZP.EXE is a BINARY self-extracting ZIPPED file containing a copy of Paper6, a compiled EXE version of the program as well as the QuickBasic ascii source code. Be sure to use the BINARY command before getting the file. Without setting the BINARY file transfer capability, the copy you receive will not function. You must also set binary file transfer protocols in transferring to your pc. For non-MS DOS users, there are also ASCII versions of the source code, but since the program runs under MS DOS or QuickBasic, it will probably be of limited use. ----------------------------------------------------------- | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1993 20:31:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Schedule of Papers APPLICATIONS OF TECHNOLOGY IN TEACHING CHEMISTRY An On-Line Computer Conference June 14 TO August 20, 1993 Sponsored by the American Chemical Society Division of Chemical Education's Committee on Computers in Chemical Education TECHNICAL PROGRAM 1. The Use of Computers in a Junior-Level Analytical Chemistry - Physical Chemistry Laboratory Course Donald Rosenthal, Department of Chemistry, Clarkson University, Potsdam NY 13699 (ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET) June 14 - Short questions June 21 through June 22 - Discussion 2. For LANS Sake: Suggestions for the Use of Networked Computers in Chemical Education B. James Hood, Dept. of Chemistry & Physics, Middle Tennessee State University; bjhood@knuth.mtsu.edu (INTERNET) or PrfJimHood (America Online) June 15 - Short questions June 23 through June 24 - Discussion 3. Visualizing Chemical Reactions John P. Ranck, Elizabethtown College, Department of Chemistry, Elizabethtown, PA 17022-2298; Internet: ranck@vax.etown.edu June 16 - Short questions June 25 through June 28 - Discussion 4. Cultural Differences Reflected by an Integrated Media Chemistry Course - An American/Israeli Perspective *Nava Ben-Zvi, **William S. Harwood, *Ahuva Leopold, **Lisa L. Ragsdale, *Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Israel 91904, **University of Maryland, College Park, Maryland 20742 (201226@UMDD.UMD.EDU) June 17 - Short questions June 29 through June 30 - Discussion 5. It's How You Play the Game: Design of an Electronic Assistant for Organic Qualitative Analysis Joyce C. Brockwell, Northwestern University, Department of Chemistry 2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston IL 60208-3113 (jcb@nwu.edu) June 18 - Short questions July 1 through July 2 - Discussion 6. Individual Computer-Generated Graphical Problem Sets Frank M. Lanzafame, Monroe Community College, Chemistry Dept., 1000 East Henrietta Rd., Rochester, NY 14623Voice: Internet: FLANZAFAME@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU July 5 - Short questions July 12 through July 13 - Discussion 7. Integrating Computers into the High School Chemistry Classroom William J.Sondgerath, Chemistry Teacher at Harrison High School West Lafayette, Indiana, (BSONDGER@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU) July 6 - Short questions July 14 through July 15 - Discussion 8. Using the Airwaves: A Satellite M. S. for Industrial Chemists Keith J.Schray, N.D. Heindel, J. E. Brown, and M. A. Kercsmar, Department of chemistry and office of distance education Lehigh University., Bethlehem, Pa, 18015 (kjs0@Lehigh.EDU) July 7 - Short questions July 16 through July 19 - Discussion 9. Staff Development is the Biggest Cost in Computing David W. Brooks, Center for Curriculum and Instruction, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, Lincoln, Nebraska 68588-0355. (dbrooks@unlinfo.unl.edu) July 8 - Short questions July 20 through July 21 - Discussion 10. Personal Computers in Teaching Physical Chemistry A.A.Kubasov, V.S.Lyutsarev, K.V.Ermakov, Chemical Faculty of Moscow State University, Moscow, Russian Republic. (LASER@mch.chem.msu.su) July 9 - Short questions July 22 through July 23 - Discussion 11. Applications of Networked Computers and Electronic Mail in a Chemistry Course for Nonscience Students Carl H. Snyder, Chemistry Department, University of Miami, Coral Gables, FL 33124 (CSNYDER@umiami.ir.miami.edu), and James Shelley, Academic and Research Systems, Information Resources,University of Miami, Coral Gables, FL 33124 (JSHELLEY@umiami.ir.miami.edu) July 26 - Short questions Aug. 2 through Aug. 3 - Discussion 12. The Computer Co-Op: Teaching Organic Chemistry on a Conference in an Interdisciplinary Macintosh Lab Carolyn Sweeney Judd, M.A. (cjudd@tenet.edu), Faculty, Chemistry, and Robert G. Ford, Ph.D., Faculty, English, Central College, Houston Community College System, 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 July 27 - Short questions Aug. 4 through Aug. 5 - Discussion 13. Finite Difference Solution of the Diffusion Equation in a Spreadsheet Douglas A. Coe, Montana College of Mineral Science and Technology, Butte, MT 59701 (DACOE@MTVMS2.MTECH.EDU) July 28 - Short questions Aug. 6 through Aug. 9 - Discussion 14. CHEMULATE! A Simulator of UV/Vis Kinetics Experiments for the Macintosh Richard S. Moog, Franklin and Marshall College (R_Moog@acad.fandm.edu) July 29 - Short questions Aug. 10 through Aug. 11 - Discussion 15. Menu Driven Programming for Students and Teachers Reed Howald, Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Montana State University Bozeman, MT 59717 (uchrh%planet.dnet@terra.oscs.montana.edu) July 30 - Short questions Aug. 12 through Aug. 13 - Discussion General discussion: August 16 through 20 Evaluation: Aug. 20 Deadline for return of Evaluation Form to to2@UMAIL.UMD.EDU ----------------------------- You may obtain any or all of these papers either by e-mail or by anonymous FTP. To have papers sent to you by e-mail, send an e-mail message to listserv@umdd.umd.edu or to listserv@umdd.bitnet, in which the message body contains one or more of the following lines: GET PAPER1 TEXT GET PAPER2 TEXT GET PAPER3 TEXT and so on, for each paper you want, with each item listed on a separate line. Request only the papers you are interested in reading. Depending on the network load, the material will be mailed to you within a few minutes or hours. For Internet users, the papers can be obtained by Telnet or by anonymous FTP from: Host: info.umd.edu Path: info/Teaching/ChemConference Papers with associated figures or files are placed in separate sub- directories (e.g. Paper1). Files with a ".txt", ".hqx", or ".UUE" extension are ASCII text files that must be transferred in ASCII (text) mode. Files with a ".GIF" extension are graphics files (figures) that must be transferred in binary mode and viewed with a GIF viewer. For example, Paper1Figure1.GIF is Figure 1 of Paper 1. Files with other extensions (".ZIP", etc) are generally binary files that must be transferred in binary mode. MAKE SURE YOU SET THE MODE before you begin the transfer. (Binary files downloaded in text mode will not be usable). Refer to the author's paper for information on how to use the associated files. Papers 1-3, 5-9, and 12-15 are avaiable now. The other papers will be made available as soon as they are received from the authors. Short questions on Paper1 begines June 14. If you wish to contact the author of a paper before that time, please send the message to the author's personal e-mail address listed above, not to the CHEMCONF list address. Prof. Thomas C. O'Haver, CHEMCONF organizer Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Internet: to2@umail.umd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1993 06:29:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Customized software ON-LINE TEXT AND GIF FILE VIEWER CUSTOMIZED FOR CHEMCONF PARTICIPANTS We now have special software that will allow some CHEMCONF participants to quickly and simply log onto the conference FTP site and to brouse through the papers and GIF figures WHILE ON-LINE, thus avoiding the complex multi-step process usually required to download, convert, and view the papers and figures. The software is pre-configured to log on to the CHEMCONF subdirectory on info.umd.edu, and it is set to recognize the figures (binary ".gif" files) and to display them automatically. Currently this software is available only for networked Macintosh systems with MacTCP. See info.umd.edu info/Teaching/ChemConference/Software/Macintosh/Fetch2.1.ReadMe for more information. Tom O'Haver CHEMCONF organizer to2@umail.umd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 06:44:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Welcome to CHEMCONF '93! To: ALL CHEMCONF '93 PARTICIPANTS From: Thomas O'Haver Conference Organizer and Manager 301-405-1831 TO2@UMAIL.UMD.EDU and Donald Rosenthal Chair, ACS Division of Chemical Education's Committee on Computers in Chemical Education 315-265-9242 ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET Re: WELCOME TO CHEMCONF '93 Date: Monday, June 14, 1993 On behalf of the ACS Division of Chemical Education's Committee on Computers in Chemical Education, we welcome you to CHEMCONF '93 and declare this conference officially open. There are currently 452 participants from 31 nations signed up for this conference. We hope you will all enjoy and actively participate in this historic experiment. The topic for today (Monday, June 14) is short questions on paper 1, "The Use of Computers in a Junior-Level Analytical Chemistry - Physical Chemistry Laboratory Course" by Donald Rosenthal. The schedule for the remainder of Session 1 is as follows. Session 1 (Papers 1 to 5) June 14 - Short questions on Paper 1 (Rosenthal) June 15 - Short questions on Paper 2 (Hood) June 16 - Short questions on Paper 3 (Ranck) June 17 - Short questions on Paper 4 (Ben-Zvi) June 18 - Short questions on Paper 5 (Brockwell) June 21 through June 22 - Discussion of paper 1 (Rosenthal) June 23 through June 24 - Discussion of paper 2 (Hood) June 25 through June 28 - Discussion of paper 3 (Ranck) June 29 through June 30 - Discussion of paper 4 (Ben-Zvi) July 1 through July 2 - Discussion of paper 5 (Brockwell) For Internet users, the conference files and software are available by telnet or by anonymous FTP from: Host: info.umd.edu Path: info/Teaching/ChemConference The text materials can also be obtained by e-mail. Send an e-mail message to LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU or LISTSERV@UMDD.BITNET in which the message body contains one or more of the following lines: GET SUMR93 TITLES GET SUMR93 SCHEDULE GET SUMR93 ABSTRACT GET CHEMCONF WELCOME GET PAPER1 TEXT GET PAPER2 TEXT etc. -------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 06:53:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Please save this message To: ALL CHEMCONF '93 PARTICIPANTS From: Thomas O'Haver Conference Organizer and Manager 301-405-1831 TO2@UMAIL.UMD.EDU and Donald Rosenthal Chair, ACS Division of Chemical Education's Committee on Computers in Chemical Education 315-265-9242 ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET Re: EVALUATION OF THE COMPUTER CONFERENCE Date: June 14, 1993 A conference evaluation form is appended. Please read it before the meeting. We view the Conference evaluation process to be as important as the Conference itself. We would appreciate knowing the extent to which you participated, what you liked and didn't like, and what suggestions you may have for future meetings. Please fill out the form and return it AFTER the conference. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ EVALUATION FORM FOR CHEMCONF '93 1. NAME ________________________________ DATE _________________________ 2. ADDRESS AT WORK _____________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________ 3. TITLE AT WORK ______________________ (e.g. Professor, Teacher, etc.) 4. ELECTRONIC MAIL ADDRESS ________________ 5. DO YOU HAVE ACCESS TO INTERNET? _________ 6. COURSES YOU TEACH ___________________________________________________ 7. COMPUTER EXPERTISE ______ (1 to 5) 1 Beginner, 3 Average, 5 Expert 8. FACILITY USING ELECTRONIC MAIL ______ (On scale from 1 to 5) 9. Hardware used for e-mail ____________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STATISTICS SESSION 1 ----------- PAPER NUMBER ----------- - 1 - - 2 - - 3 - - 4 - - 5 - 10. READ All,Most or None _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 11. TIME SPENT READING PAPER (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 12. Number of times you accessed discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 13. Number of times you asked questions or participated in discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 14. Amount of time you devoted to the discussion (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 15. Total Time Devoted (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SESSION 2 ----------- PAPER NUMBER ----------- - 6 - - 7 - - 8 - - 9 - - 10- 10. READ All,Most or None _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 11. TIME SPENT READING PAPER (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 12. Number of times you accessed discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 13. Number of times you asked questions or participated in discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 14. Amount of time you devoted to the discussion (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 15. Total Time Devoted (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SESSION 3 ----------- PAPER NUMBER ----------- - 11- - 12- - 13- - 14- - 15- 10. READ All,Most or None _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 11. TIME SPENT READING PAPER (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 12. Number of times you accessed discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 13. Number of times you asked questions or participated in discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 14. Amount of time you devoted to the discussion (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 15. Total Time Devoted (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EVALUATION Evaluation - Scale 1 to 5 - 1 is Poor, 3 is Average and 5 is excellent 16. Overall evaluation of papers ____ 17. Overall evaluation of discussion _____ 18. Overall evaluation of trial meeting ____ 19. I consider Paper #____ best. Evaluation (1 to 5) ____ 20. I considered the discussion of Paper #____ best. Evaluation (1 to 5) ____ 21. Explain your answers to Questions 19 and 20 ________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 22. What did you like most about the computer conference? ______________ ________________________________________________________________________ 23. What did you like least about the computer conference? _____________ ________________________________________________________________________ 24. What changes could be made to improve the computer conference? (Papers, Short Question Sessions, Discussion Sessions, etc.) ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 25. Compare this Conference with the usual conference. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 26. Other suggestions and recommendations ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ (Continue if you need more space) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please return this form to Thomas O'Haver (TO2@UMAIL.UMD.EDU) between August 16 and August 20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- We hope this will be the first of many conferences. Topics for future computer conferences are not restricted to chemical education. A Conference on Chemometrics is planned for October 1994. Please contact Tom O'Haver after August 20 if you are interested in organizing a conference. CHEMCONF and LISTSERV will be available for future use. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 09:18:00 EDT From: ROSEN1 Subject: SHORT QUESTION PERIOD COMPUTER CONFERENCE ON APPLICATIONS OF TECHNOLOGY IN TEACHING CHEMISTRY JUNE 14 TO AUGUST 20, 1993 It is Monday, June 14 - This day is to be devoted to the sending of SHORT QUESTIONS ONLY regarding PAPER 1 (The Use of Computers in a Junior-level Analytical Chemistry - Physical Chemistry Laboratory Course by Donald Rosenthal). SHORT QUESTIONS may be directed to the author and/or participants via CHEMCONF. Another message will be sent to you at the end of the SHORT QUESTION period for this paper (Tuesday 8 AM Eastern Daylight Saving Time). There is to be no DISCUSSION of PAPER 1 at this time. DISCUSSION of PAPER 1 will begin on Monday, June 21. Additional information about the SHORT QUESTIONS period and the DISCUSSION period can be found in the INSTRUCTIONS FOR PARTICIPANTS. Excerpts are appended below. -------------------------------------------------------------------- INSTRUCTIONS FOR PARTICIPANTS (Updated 5/13/93) 1. SHORT QUESTIONS The first week of each session is reserved for the reading of the papers in that session and for sending SHORT QUESTIONS to the authors or other participants. A specific day is designated for SHORT QUESTIONS on each paper. For example, it is expected that Paper 1 will be read on or before June 14. In reading the paper you may have a short question for the author asking for more information or clarification of points raised in the paper. A SHORT QUESTION may be sent to the author of Paper 1 on June 14 via CHEMCONF. This will alert other participants as well as the author to the question. SHORT QUESTIONS may be sent to the other participants on the designated day. DISCUSSION of the paper WILL NOT START until at least a week after the designated time for SHORT QUESTIONS. This gives authors (and participants) at least a week to prepare answers to SHORT QUESTIONS To send comments or questions privately to the author of the paper only, send your message to the author's email address given in the paper. Reports of typographical errors, spelling and grammatical errors should be sent directly to the author, not to CHEMCONF. Only the authors can see these messages. You can send these messages at any time. 2. DISCUSSION A specific two days during the second and third weeks of each session is devoted to the discussion of each paper. Answers to SHORT QUESTIONS are to be sent at the beginning of the session. To send comments or questions about a particular conference paper to the entire conference, WAIT UNTIL THE DAYS DESIGNATED FOR DISCUSSION OF THAT PAPER, then mail your message to CHEMCONFmdd.umd.edu or CHEMCONFmdd.bitnet Please put the PAPER NUMBER IN THE SUBJECT LINE of the message (e.g. "Paper 1"), so that participants can more easily sort out conference discussions from other e-mail. Please remember that messages sent to CHEMCONF will be distributed to all CHEMCONF participants, adding to their e-mail burden. As a courtesy to other participants, please keep your messages concise, limit your discussion to the topic of the paper in question, and avoid irrelevant, redundant, and personal comments that are not of general interest. Comments about conference procedure should be directed to Tom O'Haver (to2@umail.umd.edu) or Don Rosenthal (rosen@CLVM.BITNET). APPENDIX 5: HELPFUL HINTS AND SUGGESTIONS a. One of the problems of an e-mail based conference is sorting out all the overlapping threads of conversation. When you are responding to or asking about a specific passage in a paper or message, a very helpful technique is to quote a small passage from that paper or message in your response and to place a ">" character at the beginning of each quoted line, e.g.: > We used the....so-and-so...in order to.... We tried that too, but we found that.... The ">" character in this example is an e-mail convention indicating that that line is quoted from another message. There is no need to re-type the quoted passage if you have saved it on the file system of your computer; just Copy and Paste the desired passage into your message, then type ">" characters in front of each line. Another helpful technique to refer to a previous message is to specify the time and date, e.g. 2-11-93 8:53 EST. Depending on the way that participants store messages, this may make it easier to find a particular message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 09:14:22 -0700 From: Stephen Lower Subject: P1Ques: standardized computers The requirement that all students have a computer whose type is mandated by the University raises a few questions: 1) Do you feel that this policy (which undoubtedly played an important role in establishing Clarkson as a pioneer in getting microcomputers into the hands of students) still makes a significant difference in terms of how you make use of computers in your Chemistry courses? 2) I presume that the 1-Mb PS/2 is a minimum standard, intended to keep costs as low as possible. How do you deal with the eventual need to incorporate software into your curriculum that requires a more powerful system (with Windows capability, for example)? Do a significant number of students buy computers that extend beyond this minimum requirement? ---------- Steve Lower - Vancouver, Canada Dept of Chemistry - Simon Fraser University - Burnaby BC V5A 1S6 lower@sfu.ca 604-291-3353 FAX: 604-291-3765 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 13:04:00 EDT From: "Peter Gold, Penn State U. (814) 865-7694" Subject: Paper 1: Questions 1. Are all of the course experiments given in the paper or are those just the ones that make use of computers? 2. Does the course do anything with digital (or analog) methods for signal enhancement? 3. Does the course do anything with vacuum techniques? ( I know that doesn't have much to do with computers; I'm just curious.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 14:59:30 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: P1Ques: standardized computers The problem with trying to standardize on any one computer/operating system is that until the software world provides truly "open" software, standardization limits one to the lowest common denominator. It the real world of the 90's, any system that doesn't support a GUI (graphical user interface) is counter productive. That leaves us with Windows, Mac OS, UNIX with some variant of X-windows, or X running on a Mac or PC. For chemical or any other technical computing, having students buy a text based DOS machine distorts the potentials for the real world use of computers. Non-standard/ non-interchangable graphics superimposed on DOS simply complicates the situation. I am trying to network a mixture of DOS/Windows PCs, Macs and Unix boxes so that the spectroscopic information obtained in our major instrumentation labs is available on faculty desc-tops, and in the student computer labs. This is non-trivial and we've really just started it. The only hope for the pure DOS-ites is to take text files into a spreadsheet or plotting program, but without WYSIWYG, the resulting reports look a mess. Those comfortable in a Mac, Windows or UNIX environment do so much better. Does low cost with everyone on a minimalist computer achieve better goals that having fewer computers shared, but able to do what is expected in the real world. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 14:06:00 CDT From: Ray Sommers Subject: Paper 1 re: V A 1 Fig. 8; Which set of data was used for the figure - or is it just a representative figure ? re: V A 1 Fig. 8: Was the raw data reentered by keyboard for the plot or was it manipulated from that originally collected? re V B; In the first line specifying p-cyanoacetophenone I am not familiar with the 2 E-3 M designation or the 1443-80-7. Could you explain? Thanks, |==================================================================| | | | Ray Sommers, Chem Dept. +----+----+ | | | | U of Wis @ Stevens Point | | | | | / \ Stevens Point WI 54481 /^\ | /^\ | | / UWSP \ rsommers@spu1.uwsp.edu (___) | (___) | | (__________) rsommers@uwspmail.uwsp.edu /^\ | |==================================================================| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 16:45:00 EST From: "Arthur M. Halpern" Subject: paper 1 RE: Paper 1 Concerning the use of computers in the physical chemistry laboratory, do any of the experiments described involve the use of on-line data acquisition by the computer from an instrument? Also, do you deal with ADC methods/techniques in that part of the lab course? Arthur M. Halpern Department of Chemistry Indiana State University Terre Haute, Indiana ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 16:47:44 -0600 From: "Douglas A. Coe" Subject: Short Questions for Paper #1 1. Do you have a short course for "classical" quantitative analysis. If not, why not? How much "classical" quantitative analysis do students get in the first year? 2. In what courses, other than those you mentioned, do you teach the statistical treatment of data? 3. How does Clarkson manage to insure that each entering student is able to purchase a microcomputer? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 21:45:17 -0600 From: Gerald Morine Subject: Re: Paper 1 I have a few short questions related to Paper 1, which I incidentally thought was an excellent piece of work. 1. The author wrote that previously students were given instruction in BASIC and FORTRAN, and wrote data analysis programs, for example, on the kinetics experiment. Do you still require or even encourage students to learn these languages? Why or why not? 2. Other "Short Questioners" have asked about electronic signal enhancement and A/D conversion. I would like to broach the same subject in different terms. Specifically, are all the computer-data acquisition experiments hard-wired or commercial connections, or do students do any practical electronics in the course of running these experiments? 3. What are the safety precautions that are followed to make taking viscosities of concentrated sulfuric acid solutions, in the Nylon experiment, safe? Jerry Morine, Department of Chemistry, Bemidji State University, Bemidji, MN ghmo@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 08:46:28 -0400 From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster 1. Why recomend Thinnet rather than 10baseT based on future speed -- your suggestion of FDDI (100 MHz) on Thinnet coax when the IEEE is closer to accepting a twisted pair (10baseT) 100 MHz Ethernet standard than they are to FDDI on copper. ( I myself am responsible for a couple of thinnet and a couple of 10base10 ethernet LANs and a half dozen Appletalk LANs and we are phasing out the thinnet -- much less reliable than 10baseT and much harder to troubleshoot. In a star configuration, thinnet exceeds the conduit capacity of most already constructed buildings, whereas the twisted pairs for 10baseT already exist inmost offices and labs as part of the telephone cabling.) 2. 2. Why do you not mention Appletalk (Localtalk) via ethernet i.e. Ethertalk. You don't distinguish the Mac networks with peer to peer (System 7) networking from cohabitation with client server using The Apple server software, or as we do MacJanet ( 6 or 7 MacJanet nets on campus and more going in). Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 08:59:24 -0400 From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster 1. Why recomend Thinnet rather than 10baseT based on future speed -- your suggestion of FDDI (100 MHz) on Thinnet coax when the IEEE is closer to accepting a twisted pair (10baseT) 100 MHz Ethernet standard than they are to FDDI on copper. ( I myself am responsible for a couple of thinnet and a couple of 10base10 ethernet LANs and a half dozen Appletalk LANs and we are phasing out the thinnet -- much less reliable than 10baseT and much harder to troubleshoot. In a star configuration, thinnet exceeds the conduit capacity of most already constructed buildings, whereas the twisted pairs for 10baseT already exist inmost offices and labs as part of the telephone cabling.) 2. 2. Why do you not mention Appletalk (Localtalk) via ethernet i.e. Ethertalk. You don't distinguish the Mac networks with peer to peer (System 7) networking from cohabitation with client server using The Apple server software, or as we do MacJanet ( 6 or 7 MacJanet nets on campus and more going in). I hope this hasn't gone out twice -- 1st attempt returned by postmaster, but it may have been to everyone since there was an error in originator address apparently. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 13:55:00 EDT Subject: Paper 2 - Short Questions To: B. James Hood Middle Tennessee State University bjhood@knuth.mtsu.edu PAPER 2 Short Questions 1. What sort of local area network are you using in chemistry at Middle Tennessee State Unbiversity? How many and what kind of microcomputers do you have on the network? 2. What do you and what do the students use the network for? What software is available on the network? Donald Rosenthal Box 5810 Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 16:24:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 2 Can you explain why it was that separate proprietary LAN protocols needed to be developed in the first place, rather than basing everything on non-proprietary TCP/IP? After all, you need TCP/IP anyway to deal with the Internet, so why not use that for LAN services as well? That way you wouldn't have to mix protocols on one network (e.g. Novell + TCP/IP, or AppleTalk + TCP/IP). Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 06:50:14 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: PAPER 3 Yes! Better visualization will surely lead to increased understanding. Can you give an estimate of the time needed to produce your movies? Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston, TX 77004 1-512-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 11:00:00 EDT Subject: PAPER 3 - SHORT QUESTION 1. How do you use the animation files - do you use them as demonstrations in lectures or do students have access to them outside of class? 2. How do students react to these animations? What sort of student evaluations have these materials received? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 12:35:31 -0400 From: Gary Hammer Subject: paper 3 How do you get the animated player to work. After some unzip problems, solved by Tom Haver, who suggested unz50p1.exe as the unzipper, I was able to unzip the .zip files. Now aniplay.exe---shown in paper 3 as aaplayhi.exe---gave me an error messasge which indicated it didn't like my video display and then dumped me to a blank screen which I assume is the player screen, eventually. The second time through I did not get the error message, but instead went to same blank screen. The function keys 1-9 served to change a number on the bottom of the screen from 0 - 48. There was never any chance to change any parameters or the configuration. Any suggestions. Gary Hammer ghammer@powhatan.cc.cnu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 01:38:30 EDT From: CHARLIE ABRAMS Subject: Paper 3 Short Questions 1. Do you have a graph of the potential energy vs. frame number? Even better would be an energy surface with O-C and C-Br distances as the X and Y axis respectively. 2. Can you provide more information on exactly what parameters were used for the calculation? (ie. what level of sophistication, etc.) 3. How much faith do you have in these calculations? Is it safe to assume that the *qualitative* behavior is independent of the level of sophistication? 4. Can you generate shaded *surfaces* with HyperChem? Was this avoided because of computational expense, or memory expense, or both? (By surface I mean CPK type image). 5. I've had trouble getting the display to behave properly on one monitor. The program did not give me the 640x480 driver option when I used a DEC "PC7XV" monitor (with a DEC 433dxLP computer), and would only display 'oversized bits'. Are other drivers available? Thanks! Charles B. Abrams McGill University (514) 398-6224 cx7q@musica.mcgill.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 06:53:49 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: help I am confused! Yesterday I received confirmation that my question had been received by you, but I never re-received the question as I would have expected. Was the question sent out to all conference members except the member who wrote the question? Thank you, Carolyn S. Judd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 06:56:24 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Paper 4 I love The World of Chemistry videos! My students love them also. Could you give more detail about the student projects involving their own video productions. Was there an exact assignment? How long were the videos. Did the institution furnish the equipment? How did the class presentation go? Were there more student questions following a student presentation than the presentations from The World of Chemistry? Thank you. Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston, TX 77004 1-713-665-7463 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 08:29:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 4 - Short Question PAPER 4 - Short Question 1. Six references are listed at the end of your paper. The videotapes are cited. What about the other references? Were any of these used in the courses you discussed? Was the laboratory manual used? What sort of experiments are in the laboratory manual? Donald Rosenthal Box 5810 Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 10:25:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 4 - Short Question In-Reply-To: <9306171235.AA15636@umd5.umd.edu> 1. Specifically what societal, economic, and political differences between Israeli and American chemistry students have a bearing on the video-based course experiment? 2. Do you find important differences between the television viewing habits of Israeli and American students? 3. Are there differences between the extent to which Israeli and American students are exposed to video production technology at the secondary level? Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 10:20:19 -0400 From: Mary Swift Subject: Paper05 Brockwell Questions: 1. What mechanism will be employed to prevent the students from using the computer program to guide their analysis of the unknowns? That is access the program for the questions to be answered and then go and do the appro- priate experiments to obtain these answers? 2. For the pre-med students (75% of the class), what is the major objective - development to critical thinking skills or development of manual dexterity? If it is critical thinking, how many wet labs are absolutely necessary to permit the students to get an aceptable level of manual dexterity? 3. How many of the pre-med students obtain admission to medical school? 4. While one must acknowledge the goals of the student would it not be better to emphasize that there are many careers, including medicine, that require the use of problem solving skills? Mary L. Swift ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 09:30:01 -0600 From: "Douglas A. Coe" Subject: Short questions for Paper 5 Short questions for Paper 5: 1. How many institutions require a qualitative organic course in one or more of their majors? (a question to all particpants) 2. How many participants have written homegrown programs to ease the grading of homework or laboratories in large classes? I did this in a physical chemistry course where enrollment has varied from 50 to 150 students and where, typically, 200 problems are assigned. The program has been tremendously useful in this course, but required a year of intensive effort to write. I'm not sure I would do it again. (again a question to all participants) Doug Coe Montana College of Mineral Science and Technology ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 13:26:56 EDT From: Alan Stolzenberg Subject: Questions on paper 5 Questions on "It's How You Play the Game: Design of an Electronic . . ." 1. Some schools that do qual organic analysis use mixtures of compounds. Do you have any thoughts about how the program could be changed to make pro- vision for this? 2. I wonder whether the interactive approach with the computer program will encourage students to perform tests that their current results and their logic should tell them are unnecessary? In other words, will the pro- gram encourage them to not to think about their approach and instead conform to a strategy that is implicitly spelled out by the series of questions that they confront? 3. What type of computer system do you envision running the program on? How will you prevent a student from hacking and taking over the system? The danger is not only of students finding out the answers but also changing other students' scores. Whether or not this is easy, if students think that it is possible you might start getting complaints that the session and results went differently than your records show. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 15:13:44 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Short questions for Paper 5 >Short questions for Paper 5: > >1. How many institutions require a qualitative organic course in one or > more of their majors? (a question to all particpants) Not as separate courses, but integral to our integrated year II labs, (org, inorg, phys, analyt integrated in a pair of one semester courses) > >2. How many participants have written homegrown programs to ease the > grading of homework or laboratories in large classes? I did this > in a physical chemistry course where enrollment has varied from 50 > to 150 students and where, typically, 200 problems are assigned. The > program has been tremendously useful in this course, but required a > year of intensive effort to write. I'm not sure I would do it again. > (again a question to all participants) > > Doug Coe > Montana College of Mineral Science and Technology Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 07:56:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 1 - Answers to Short Questions PAPER 1 - ANSWERS TO SHORT QUESTIONS Lines with > contain questions Answers are on lines containing * From: Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET Date: June 21, 1993 ===================================================================== > Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 09:14:22 -0700 > From: Stephen Lower > Subject: P1Ques: standardized computers > The requirement that all students have a computer whose type > is mandated by the University raises a few questions: --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION A > 1) Do you feel that this policy (which undoubtedly played an important > role in establishing Clarkson as a pioneer in getting microcomputers > into the hands of students) still makes a significant difference in > terms of how you make use of computers in your Chemistry courses? * Each student at Clarkson has an IBM PS/2 in his (or her) room and is * supplied with MS DOS, Word Perfect and a spreadsheet (Lotus-1,2,3 * or Quattro Pro). As a freshman the student has taken an introductory * computer course which familiarizes him (or her) with the software. * Word processing has been used in a one year freshman english course * (Great Ideas) and throughout the curriculum. Under these * circumstances I had no missgivings about requiring every student to * use word processing or a spreadsheet to prepare experimental * reports. I did not have to worry about students having to stand in * line or sign up for a time slot in a terminal room somewhere on * campus. Students have access to personal computers (PS/2 or Zenith * 248) in the chemistry laboratories, the Science Center terminal rooms, * near the library and elsewhere on campus. In the junior level * Instrumental Laboratory course which I described I opted to make all * additional software students needed in preparing laboratory reports * available. All this software could be used on the student's personal * computer. (However, see Question B.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION B > 2) I presume that the 1-Mb PS/2 is a minimum standard, intended to > keep costs as low as possible. How do you deal with the eventual > need to incorporate software into your curriculum that requires > a more powerful system (with Windows capability, for example)? > Do a significant number of students buy computers that extend > beyond this minimum requirement? * The PS/2 is adequate for word processing, spreadsheet and many other * applications. Each year (or every few years) the University * reassesses its computer needs and the personal computer has been * updated. Next year the PS/2 will have a 25 megaherz SX 386 * microprocessor, 2 megs of memory and an 80 meg hard disk. MS DOS 5 * will be the operating system. The monitor is monochromatic. * Some students have added additional memory or a modem to the * PS/2. With a modem and terminal emulation software students can dial * up and access the University-wide network. Very very few students * buy additional computers. * Each student receives an instructional access code which provides * access to electronic mail, file transfer and printing services as well * as access to an IBM RS/6000 POWERServer 550 with 256 Megabytes * of memory and a total of more than 65 Gigabytes of disk storage. * In the Science Center where the Department of Chemistry is located * there are two terminal rooms containing a total of thirty IBM RS/6000 * color workstations. There are two Science Center terminal rooms * containing a total of forty-eight IBM and compatible PCs which are * network-connected. In addition, there are about a half dozen * network-connected PCs in each of the dormitories, and RS/6000 and PCs * in half a dozen terminal rooms elsewhere on campus. * The Network contains a software distribution system which contains * software developed by faculty for courses, by the Educational * Resources Center staff, software obtained free and software for which * Clarkson has a site license. This software can be down loaded to * disk and used on the student PCs. This software is classified into * the following categories - Communications Software, Computation * Software, Data Base and Data Base Tools, Editors and Editing Tools, * Graphics/Plotting Programs and Tools, Miscellaneous Utilities, PC TeX, * Programming Languages, Software for Courses, and Freshman Software * Distribution. The programs mentioned in Section IV-A-5 of my paper * were available in the Software for Courses category. * The student PS/2s take much of the burden off the Network and * mainframe computers. Access to the network and mainframes presents * no problems for the 2600 undergraduate, 270 graduate students and 200 * faculty members at Clarkson. Professor Lower mentions that the * Clarkson PS/2s are not adequate to accommodate all software. If * software is needed which will not run on the student PS/2, it may be * available via the Network and/or may be run on an IBM RS/6000. * I decided for my laboratory course that I would not REQUIRE the use * of any software that would not run on the student stand-alone PS/2 * computer. The organic chemistry course at Clarkson * uses software which will not run on the Clarkson PS/2. There is * molecular modelling software developed at Clarkson under the * supervision of Dr. Richard Partch which will run on the PS/2. Dr. * Yuzhuo Li has used PC Model and HyperChem for Windows with his * students. PC Model was used on the IBM RS/6000. He is planning to * have undergraduate organic students use SPARTAN on the RS/6000 next * year. * There is a considerable amount of software to which students have * access on the Network. This includes languages like FORTRAN, * Pascal, C, C++, ADA, MODULA-2, COBOL, PL/I, LISP and PROLOG. Also, * many applications packages are available, e.g. Archie, Framemaker, * Gaussian 90, Gnuplot, Gopher, GraPHIGS/GKS, Grolier's Encyclopedia, * IMSL, InfoExplorer, ITPACK, LAPACK, Maple, MATLAB, MOTECC, NCAR graphics, * Nexpert, Nomad2, ORACLE, SAS, SLATEC, Tekplot. ==================================================================== > Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 13:04:00 EDT > From: "Peter Gold, Penn State U. (814) 865-7694" --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION C > 1. Are all of the course experiments given in the paper or are those > just the ones that make use of computers? * These are all the experiments each student performed in 1991. * From year to year experiments may change. Many of these experiments * have been used for a number of years. --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION D > 2. Does the course do anything with digital (or analog) methods for > signal enhancement? * No --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION E > 3. Does the course do anything with vacuum techniques? ( I know that > doesn't have much to do with computers; I'm just curious.) * The Vapor Pressure of Water experiment (Section VI-A-12, See Section * VII Reference 7, p. 223 to 226) uses a vacuum pump and manometer. * Vacuum distillations are performed in the organic chemistry * laboratory course. * Do any of you have an experiment or experiments using vacuum * techniques? If so, what sort of experiments do you perform? ===================================================================== > Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 14:59:30 -0400 > From: Jack Martin Miller > Subject: Re: P1Ques: standardized computers --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION F > Does low cost with everyone on a minimalist computer achieve better > goals than having fewer computers shared, but able to do what is > expected in the real world? * I believe that every student having his own computer AND access to * a network which provides more sophisticated hardware and software, * local electronic mail plus access to BITNET and INTERNET provides * access to the real world. I believe this is a good solution to * the problem of maximizing the return obtained with limited financial * resources. I realize * there are people at Clarkson and elsewhere who do not agree with me. * Most schools have not required that each student acquire a computer. * (See my answers to Questions A and B) ====================================================================== > Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 14:06:00 CDT > From: Ray Sommers --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION G > re: V A 1 Fig. 8; Which set of data was used for the figure - or is > it just a representative figure ? * All data and figures were not taken from the same report. * Figures 1 to 5 were taken from a student's 1989 report. * The data in Figure 6 were taken from an earlier laboratory report. * At one time chromatograms were obtained on the Aerograph as well * as the Sigma 2000. * The isothermal data for Figure 8 and Figure 8 were taken from a 1991 * report. The retention times (in seconds) were 55.8 for heptane, * 80.4 for octane, 124.2 for nonane, 202.2 for decane and 342.6 for * undecane, 61.2 for 4-methyl-2-pentanone and 73.2 for cyclopentanone. * The plot (and least squares fit) was made in part to test the * linearity of a ln(retention time) vs number of carbons plot. * The Kovats indices obtained from the plot will be somewhat different * from what is calculated using data for heptane and octane as is * usually done. --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION H > re: V A 1 Fig. 8: Was the raw data reentered by keyboard for the plot > or was it manipulated from that originally collected? * The data was obtained from the Sigma 2000 (in a form like Figure 4). * This student elected to convert minutes to seconds. * The data was manually entered into the least squares program and * then used in the plot program. * Incidentally, someone has indicated that the legends for Figures * 1 to 4 presented in Section IX of my paper do not correspond to * the legends in the Figures. Originally, I had planned to present * the data before the curves. Then I decided it would be better to * present the elution curves first. I never made this change in * Section IX. I'm sorry about that. --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION I > re V B; In the first line specifying p-cyanoacetophenone I am not > familiar with the 2 E-3 M designation or the 1443-80-7. > Could you explain? * 2 E-3 M is 0.002 Molar * 1443-80-7 is the Chemical Abstracts Registry Number for this compound ===================================================================== > From: "Arthur M. Halpern" --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION J > Concerning the use of computers in the physical chemistry laboratory, > do any of the experiments described involve the use of on-line data > acquisition by the computer from an instrument? * The Gas Chromatography Experiment (IV-B-1) and Infrared Gas Spectrum * Experiment (VI-A-7), and ultraviolet and infrared spectra obtained * in the Controlled Potential Electrolysis Experiment (IV-B-5) involve * the use of instruments controlled by computers (Data Stations). * The liquid scintillation counter and gamma ray spectrometer contain * programmable microprocessors. * Most of our spectroscopy equipment is computer controlled. --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION K > Also, do you deal with ADC methods/techniques in that part of > the lab course? * No ===================================================================== > Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 16:47:44 -0600 > From: "Douglas A. Coe" --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION L > 1. Do you have a short course for "classical" quantitative > analysis? If not, why not? How much "classical" quantitative > analysis do students get in the first year? * Clarkson does not offer a separate course in "classical" * quantitative analysis. Volumetric and gravimetric techniques * are taught in the freshmen laboratory course and at the beginning * of the sophomore spectroscopy course. Acid-base titrations using * an indicator and pH meter are performed. Oxidation-reduction * titrations are performed. A gravimetric chloride determination * is usually performed. I believe that many schools in recent * years have opted to include gravimetric and volumetric analysis * in freshman laboratory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION M > 2. In what courses, other than those you mentioned, do you teach > the statistical treatment of data? * Some statistics and numerical methods are taught in the freshman * general chemistry laboratory course and in the computer course. * These methods are used in the sophomore spectroscopy course. * Just how much is taught depends upon the instructor. * We have sometimes taught an elective senior level - graduate * course entitled "The Analysis Of Experimental Data". Some * students elect to take statistical methods and numerical methods * courses in the math department. --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION N > 3. How does Clarkson manage to insure that each entering student > is able to purchase a microcomputer? * All students pay a $ 300 deposit when they first receive the * computer. The remainder of the money for the computer comes * from tuition. Once they graduate the computer is theirs to keep. * If the student elects not to keep the computer $ 200 is returned. ===================================================================== > Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 21:45:17 -0600 > From: Gerald Morine QUESTION O > 1. The author wrote that previously students were given instruction in > BASIC and FORTRAN, and wrote data analysis programs, for example, on the > kinetics experiment. Do you still require or even encourage students to > learn these languages? Why or why not? * I taught BASIC and FORTRAN to students at a time when the Department * of Chemistry had a PDP8 and there was not a lot of applications * software readily available. FORTRAN was taught using an IBM mainframe. * When students had personal computers they took an introductory course * in the Department of Mathematics and Computer Science in which they * learned PASCAL. A few years later the course consisted largely of * applications software and some FORTRAN. During the 1992-1993 our * students were taught Word Perfect and Lotus-1,2,3. * Also, students familiarized themselves with the features of the * Clarkson Computing Network. Opinion within the Department is divided * regarding the content of the introductory computing course. Our * theoretical chemists would like students to learn FORTRAN, other * members of the Department would like them to become familiar with * specific applications software. Next year for the first time * students will have the option of taking one of three introductory * computer courses - a course taught by the Department of Mathematics * and Computer Science, the School of Engineering or the School of * Management. These three courses are quite different in their content. * I believe every chemistry major should be able to program in a * general purpose high level programming language like PASCAL, FORTRAN * or BASIC. (The high school AP course features PASCAL.) Students * should be able to routinely use word processing and a spreadsheet. * I believe these are essential tools for practicing chemists. * Students need to write programs and/or use spreadsheets to perform * calculations. * WHAT DOES EVERY UNDERGRADUATE CHEMISTRY MAJOR NEED TO KNOW ABOUT * COMPUTERS AND COMPUTING? The ACS Division of Computers in Chemistry * and the ACS Division of Chemical Education's Committee on Computers * in Chemical Education are co-sponsoring symposium sessions at the * 1994 fall ACS meeting in Washington to address this and related * questions. Dr. Angelo Rossi (IBM T J Watson Research Center, P.O. * Box 218, Yorktown Heights NY 10598, Phone: 213-456-4401, e-mail: * ROSSI@WATSON.IBM.COM) and Dr. Kenneth W. Loach (Department of * Chemistry, SUNY College, Plattsburgh NY 12901, Phone: 518-564-4116, * e-mail: LOACHKW@SNYPLAVA.BITNET) are organizing the sessions. * WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION? ***************** * Should every undergraduate chemistry major know how to program in * a higher level language? - What about C? - What about molecular * modelling? - word processing - spreadsheets - numerical methods - * statistical methods - other applications software, INTERNET, * computer architecture, interfacing and computer electronics, * the use of computer interfaced equipment and associated software? * WHAT SHOULD EVERY GRADUATE STUDENT KNOW? ************************** --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION P > 2. Other "Short Questioners" have asked about electronic signal > enhancement and A/D conversion. I would like to broach the same > subject in different terms. Specifically, are all the computer-data > acquisition experiments hard-wired or commercial connections, or do > students do any practical electronics in the course of running these > experiments? * All computer data acquisition experiments currently being performed * involve the use of commercially interfaced instruments. * The Second Order Kinetics experiment (Section VI-A-10) uses * a Wheatstone bridge, conductance cell, decade capacitance * box, electronic oscillator and oscilloscope. Students have to * connect the components, use the equipment and draw a circuit diagram * for the final report. For the Controlled Potential Electrolysis * experiment (Section V-B) the apparatus has to be assembled - the * potentiostat has to be connected to the electrolysis cell, and the * standard resistor and digital millivolt meter and knive switch must * be connected to the circuit. * This is a required course for all chemistry majors. All topics * can not be included. I have chosen not to emphasize electronics * or interfacing in the laboratory course. These topics are not * emphasized in the required first semester junior yeat lecture * course. We have sometimes offered elective courses covering these * topics. There are courses in electrical engineering and physics * covering these topics which some of our students elect. * DO MANY OF YOU INCLUDE MUCH ELECTRONICS OR INTERFACING IN REQUIRED * UNDERGRADUATE COURSES? ******************************************** --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION Q > 3. What are the safety precautions that are followed to make taking > viscosities of concentrated sulfuric acid solutions, in the Nylon > experiment, safe? * Each student is required to wear safety glasses and a laboratory * apron and is not permitted to pipet by mouth. We emphasize safety. * There are Safety Regulations which students are required to read * and then to sign a statement indicating they have read the regulations * and agree to abide by them. * We have a Departmental Safety Committee. A monthly Inspection * Committee is appointed and makes two unannounced inspections each * month of research and instructional laboratories and the chemistry * storerrom. This Inspection Committee consists of an undergraduate, * a graduate student and a faculty member. They turn in an inspection * report. The Safety Committee reviews these reports and takes * appropriate action. ===================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 10:05:42 CDT From: "Harmon B. Abrahamson" Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Paper 1, Re: Answer to short Question E In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 21 Jun 1993 07:56:00 EDT from , In his reply to short questions on paper 1, Donald Rosenthal writes: > QUESTION E ... > * Do any of you have an experiment or experiments using vacuum > * techniques? If so, what sort of experiments do you perform? To my knowledge, we at Univ. of North Dakota do not use vacuum techniques in our Junior-level P. Chem. lab. We DO, however, use them in our Senior-level Advanced Synthesis Lab, where we do vapor pressure and molecular mass measurements, along with synthetic chemistry in the vacuum line. This course is taken by chem. majors wanting an ACS-approved degree (typically about one-quarter of our majors). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Harmon B. Abrahamson | BITNET: UD108726@NDSUVM1 Department of Chemistry | INTERNET: UD108726@VM1.NoDak.EDU University of North Dakota | PHONE: (701) 777-2641 PO BOX 9024 | FAX: (701) 777-2331 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9024 |************************************ | What's nu? E/h of course! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 13:56:12 -0400 From: "Mr. Science" Subject: Re: Paper 1, Re: Answer to short Question E "Number One, engage text-extractor beam... NOW!!" "Aye, Captain!!" BBBZZZFFFTTT!!! "Captain, previous message locked into extractor beam. Begin reply?" "Mr. Riker... Make it so!" > > * Do any of you have an experiment or experiments using vacuum > * techniques? If so, what sort of experiments do you perform? > Here at georgetown, our senior year labs involve several experiments that utilize one form or another of vacuum technique. The senior year is when we schedule our Physical Chemistry & Advanced Chemistry Lab courses. The experiments we do with some form of vacuum techniques are as follows: Simple use of vacuum pumps: 1. Velocity of sound in a gas via FFT analysis in a Kundt's tube. 2. Critical Point apparatus for gases. Vacuum-line: 1. Synthesis of Hydrogen and deuterium Halides for spectroscopic analysis. 2. Synthesis of Various Inorganic compounds. Students are, of course, supervised during an initial run, and then given some latitude to run the equipment on their own, but with supervisory personnel (graduate student T.A.'s or faculty) present in the room, keeping a watchful (yet somewhat-distance) eye on what is going on - this gives the students a chance to develop style, skill and confidence without feeling like they need babysitters nor getting used to coddling - something the Department feels very strongly about. We use some very elementary vaccum lines - nothing fancy or complicated. Additional information is available (via email or hardcopy) upon request. regards, Tony ;> Date this awe-inspiring message was sent: 21-JUN-1993 13:47:55 *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* | Anthony V. Rosati | | | Department of Chemistry, | "A nation that cannot think, | | Georgetown University | cannot survive." | | Washington, D.C. 20057-2222 | | | ROSATI@GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU | - Norman Mailer, 1992 | | A_ROSATI@GUVAX.GEORGETOWN.EDU | National Press Club | # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # | Information Exchange Coordinator and Member, Board of Directors | | National Association of Graduate-Professional Students (NAGPS) | | 1993 - 1994 | *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 13:55:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Some Questions QUESTIONS - QUESTIONS ----------------------------------------------------------------- VIII. SOME QUESTIONS I would be interested in learning what other participants are doing at their colleges and universities. Perhaps some of you would respond to one or more of the following: 1. How are instrumental analysis and physical chemistry laboratory taught at your school? 2. Briefly describe one or more experiments which you consider to be particularly effective. 3. Describe how computers and computer software are used in these courses. Is the use of specific software optional or required? 4. What do you consider to be the strengths and weaknesses of your courses? --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION E * Do any of you have an experiment or experiments using vacuum * techniques? If so, what sort of experiments do you perform? --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION O * WHAT DOES EVERY UNDERGRADUATE CHEMISTRY MAJOR NEED TO KNOW ABOUT * COMPUTERS AND COMPUTING? The ACS Division of Computers in Chemistry * and the ACS Division of Chemical Education's Committee on Computers * in Chemical Education are co-sponsoring symposium sessions at the * 1994 fall ACS meeting in Washington to address this and related * questions. Dr. Angelo Rossi (IBM T J Watson Research Center, P.O. * Box 218, Yorktown Heights NY 10598, Phone: 213-456-4401, e-mail: * ROSSI@WATSON.IBM.COM) and Dr. Kenneth W. Loach (Department of * Chemistry, SUNY College, Plattsburgh NY 12901, Phone: 518-564-4116, * e-mail: LOACHKW@SNYPLAVA.BITNET) are organizing the sessions. * WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION? ***************** * Should every undergraduate chemistry major know how to program in * a higher level language? - What about C? - What about molecular * modelling? - word processing - spreadsheets - numerical methods - * statistical methods - other applications software, INTERNET, * computer architecture, interfacing and computer electronics, * the use of computer interfaced equipment and associated software? * WHAT SHOULD EVERY GRADUATE STUDENT KNOW? ************************** --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTION P * DO MANY OF YOU INCLUDE MUCH ELECTRONICS OR INTERFACING IN REQUIRED * UNDERGRADUATE COURSES? ******************************************** --------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 14:50:00 EDT From: "Peter Gold, Penn State U. (814) 865-7694" Subject: Paper 1 My earlier questions about vacuum experiments and sigital/analog signal processing had to do with questions we are asking here about the goals of the physical chemistry laboratory course. Certainly the course should serve to illustrate principles taught in the lecture and should introduce students to the acquisition and treatment of quantitative data and our course (which seems very similar to the Clarkson course except we don't use computers nearly as much) certainly does these things. Our advanced synthetic course (organic/inorganic) has as a major goal to teach students a number of important basic lab techniques that are commonly used by many synthetic chemists. Physical chemistry lab courses don't do as much of that. Among the important and widely-used techniques used by physical chemists I would certainly include high vacuum (i.e. the production and measurement of vacuums down to the microtorr range) and some of the basic digital and analog techniques of signal processing/enhancement (e.g. lock-in amplifiers, digital filtering). Our course includes a mass spectrometer experiment (magnetic sector) which uses an ion pump to get to pressures of about 10 microtorr; we don't say much about the vacuum techniques used, however. We do nothing right now with signal processing. Judging from what we find in our graduate students we are not alone in neglecting this aspect of p. chem lab. I would be interested to learn what other schools do and think about this and what other techniques should be included in a basic list. this conference you might want to address replies to me (lpg@psuvm.psu.edu). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 14:17:00 EST From: "Arthur M. Halpern" Subject: Re: Paper 1 In reply to the question that Don Rosenthal posed about other applications of computer-assisted physical chemistry experiments, I would like to offer the following information: At Indiana State University, we use, in addition to the spectroscopy experiments (e.g. using the FTIR spectrometer in the classic HCl (DCl) experiment) several others that are on-line, and which use considerable post-acquisition computer-based analysis. In the physical chemistry laboratory, we use the scientific and statistical program, RS1 (BBN Software, Cambridge, Mass.) for all phases of data analysis and presentation. RS1 is an extremely powerful package that has the particular advantage of being able to fit experimental data, whether entered into a table manually or through a file from a disk, to any arbitrary one-dimensional function (the FITFUNCTION routine). Thus the data needn't be in simple polynomial or exponential form. Also, in RS1, students can write procedures (language similar to FORTRAN), compile them, and run them to operate on, fit, display, etc. their data. Exploratory calculations can also be simply done using RS1 procedures. Thus RS1 combines the basic organizational and graphical assets of a spreadsheet such as EXCEL, and the graphing, exploring capability of MATHCAD into one very flexible system. The down side of RS1 is that, being an 'industrial strength' package, its expensive (about $400 after edu. discount); also it is much more esoteric than the consumer-oriented LOTUS, EXCEL, QUATTRO, MATHCAD, etc. Yet I find that the students pick up the RS1 command language fairly easily. We bought four licenses, and have then installed on four systems of our small departmental cluster (of 7 486's). Also, RS1 generates high quality (publication quality) plots on the HP 7440 (or whatever HP). A few experiments that we use for data acquisition are: 1. thermal analysis - constructing the phase diagram of the naphthalene-biphenyl system. We use an inexpensive conditioning transducer (Temperature to Analog Converter) from Omega to send the T(t) data into a bottom-of-the-line Metrabyte ADC, which is in an old Zenith 8088. The data files are then read into RS1, where a derivative procedure converts them into the first derivative, which is plotted vs. T. In this way the positions of the depressed melting points and eutectic transitions are much more easily identified. Students get very good data for this system. Cooling and heating curves are usually used in tandem. 2. collision diameters from gas viscosities - here, the output from an inexpensive pressure transducer (Omega), which monitors the pressure of an gas-handling manifold and 1-liter ballast as the gas is evacuated through a capillary, is fed into the Metrabyte ADC. The files are read into RS1 and then analyzed in terms of 1/P = 1/Po + kt, where k is determined from the known viscosity of air. The above equation follows from the integration of the Poiseuille equation assuming perfect gas behavior. Very good data are obtained IF the pressure of the gas does not exceed a point above which nonlaminar flow results (this can be estimated from the Reynolds number - I have the students do a simple calculation to estimate this point - for Ar, it is about 100 torr) and IF the pressure doesn't get too low where bulk flow gives over to molecular flow - this point the students can estimate from a comparison of the mean free path vis-a-vis the diameter of the capillary tube. 3. chemical kinetics - the product formed in a mixed second order is followed spectrometrically - again using an old 8088 baby sitting for an ADC. The data are fed into RS1, and a derivative procedure allows the students to analyze the kinetics using the differential rate law. In this form, d[P](t)/dt = k{[A]o - [P](t)}^a {[B]o - [P](t)}^b , the students FIRST confirm that a = b = 1 by using the FITFUNCTION routene in RS1, and then using a = b = 1 find k. Of course, they know [A]o and [B]o, as well as the extinction coefficient for the product from a separate experiment. Measuring k(T), and thereby Ea, is an extension that some students can follow. Using RS1 allows the study of the complex kinetics of an enzyme-catalyzed reaction to be followed in real time and analyzed using nonlinear methods. The 'burst' of product, formed in the classic hydrolysis of an ester by alpha-chymotrypsin, is readily seen in real time acquisition and analyzed according to P(t) = At + B{1 - exp(-bt)}. Some of these experiments are completely described in a p chem textbook that I write several years ago (Experimental Physical Chemistry: A Laboratory Textbook Scott,Foresman/Little,Brown, 1988). If you'd like further information, please contact me. BITNET: CHAMH@INDSVAX1 VOICE: (812) 237-2182 FAX: (812) 237-2232 Arthur M. Halpern Department of Chemistry Indiana State University Terre Haute, IN 47809 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 15:26:50 EDT From: "C. H. Lochmuller" Subject: Re: Some Questions In-Reply-To: <9306211908.AA20356@umd5.umd.edu>; from "Donald Rosenthal" at Jun 21, 93 1:55 pm Duke University P. Chem is distinct from Analytical and we do not teach an Instrumental Analysis Course per se. Our analytical course is post-P. Chem. The experiments are illustrative of modern thought in analytical chemistry and not a redindant series of external/internal calibrations. One can run into the problem that experiments are viewed as either step change response or the first derivative }peaks} if "instrumental analysis" is the emphasis {we believe}. Our students use modern instruments to obtain data for analysis. All our instruments are capapble of transferring the experimental data structures to a course dedicated VAX. The students then use MATLAB in a UNIX-like environment to work up their data, get results, do graphical and numerical analysis and prepare a report. All via ethernet campus-wide. Actually the course VAX is an end-node on Internet and we do have students logging in from thousands of miles remote over holidays finishing their latest lab report. All dorm rooms here have two independent fiber drops and two workstations. All Internet as well as DukeLAN connected. Depending on the experiment, our Analytical students do: Rank Annihilation, Single Value Decomposition Factor Analysis, Target Factor Prediction, ANOVA, Non-Linear LSQ Modeling and Pattern Recognition. The experiments include use of: AA, DAD UV, FLuorescence, STM, Fully-automated HPLC, Voltammetry, Neutron Activation, GCMS. There are no interfacing experiments in our course sequences. All our experiemnts are "interfaced" and all data is in digital format. C. H. Lochmueller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 15:52:14 +22306404 From: "Dr. John A. Pojman" Subject: Pchem at USM At the University of Southern Mississippi, the pchem lab has had little computer interfacing. Apple IIe computers with HRM software and hardware were used. We are purchasing Macintosh IIvx with Strawberry Tree A/D boards to study the BZ oscillating reaction. (Data can be downloaded to a Mac or DOS disk. Students will do phase plane analysis -- something that can't be done with a strip chart recorder). Our Instrumental ANalysis course does not explicity address interfacing. -- John A. Pojman, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry (601) 266-5035 FAX: (601) 266-5829 INTERNET: pojman@whale.st.usm.edu or: pojman@wave.st.usm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 22:01:29 -0400 From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster Does anyone else do as Clarkson does and builds the cost oc a computer into fees? The cost is written off over four years of fees or in the first year? My earlier questions and comments re "Real World Use" Questions B and F are based on our findings that the graphical aspects of data analysis, chemical models, molecular modeling software etc. are among the most important aspects of Chemical Computing. In a DOS only environment without a GUI, it doesn't mater how sophisticated the network programs are, you are still in a comand line interface mode and not a true WYSIWYG environment so essential to not just modern chemisry, but to computing in general. If not why is Windows a runnaway best seller on top of DOS today and why are DOS applications declining in sales wrt their Windows analogues. Those of us on the Mac side of the fencehave been saying why for 10 years. Compelling studnets into a DOS only environment seems to me to have the same relevence to modern Chemputing as would BASIC programming courses! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 22:09:10 -0400 From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster In my opinion all the listed topics are important but somethinghas to give, and iff so the higher level programing language couldwell be dropped. So much is done in packages and their macros, een ab initio theoreticalcalculation use Gaussian or related programs. Only theoreticians or someone designing new computer controlled hardware really have the programming need. I can program but havn't had to except for a bit of code clean up in 10 years. That doesn't prevent me from being hired as a consultant on major instrumentation projects. Compputer "architecture" per se is not needed, but interfacing and associated software is a very useful topic -- again on a package basis -- I've helped design electronic interfaces, and teach it on a qualitative basis in my advanced instrumentation course in year 4 (a course in applied sales resistance -- I turn my students loose on the instrument vendors). Detaisl of architectorue neednot me taught -- a bit of cpu on chip architecture can be inclded for the hardware gurus, but it needn't be dwelled on. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 22:12:29 -0400 From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster We have vacuum system experiments in P. Chem. (spectroscopy labs) the HCL isotope expt combined with FTIR, in inorganic synthesis labs, in instrumetal analysis as part of mass spec, and as part of my advanced instrumentation course, and in some detail in grad. mass spec. courses. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 01:14:00 CDT From: Ray Sommers Subject: Paper 1 UW Stevens Point has 15 faculty in Chem and about 10 majors/year. PC's are available in 4 student labs as well as about 15 in in the chemistry labs etc. Our analytical and pchem courses are separate. I am not familiar with the pchem course. Our instrumental analysis course does not do any interfacing. I teach an analytical course for chemistry minors. This is the second analytical course they take. In a kinetic experiment we interface to a Novaspec 2 spectrophotometer via the RS-232 port. A short program in BASIC allows us to collect absorbance vs. time. We follow the fading of crystal violet in NaOH. It is pseudo first order because the NaOH concentration is relatively high. Three runs are made with known NaOH concs. and then with an unknown conc NaOH. The data is stored in a file and then analyzed either with a locally developed plot program or a spreadsheet. Last year I gave each person a copy of the shareware spreadsheet ASEASYAS and we used that for the analysis in this experiment as well in other experiments. This experiment was formerly done with a TRS-80 and an A/D converter. |==================================================================| | | | Ray Sommers, Chem Dept. +----+----+ | | | | U of Wis @ Stevens Point | | | | | / \ Stevens Point WI 54481 /^\ | /^\ | | / UWSP \ rsommers@spu1.uwsp.edu (___) | (___) | | (__________) rsommers@uwspmail.uwsp.edu /^\ | |==================================================================| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 06:43:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 1 discussion My feeling is that it is not practical to make courses on electronics, interfacing, and computer programming a REQUIREMENT for ALL chemistry majors, many of whom want to be physicians or dentists, not scientists. Even most scientists treat these aspects as "black box". Here at U. of Maryland I have taught for many years separate upper-level undergraduate ELECTIVE courses on those subjects. These turn out to be quite popular with graduate students, who appreciate more than the typical undergraduate the utility of such ancillary topics for their research. The experiments emphasize group projects in which student teams design, construct, program, and test simple computer-automated measurement systems from basic parts (ADCs, op. amps, stepper motors, monochromators, etc.), apply digital signal enhancement algorithms, explore aspects of computer graphics, networking, and data exchange between platforms. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 08:45:11 -0400 From: Tom Richardson Subject: paper1 The Citadel is (again) exploring the possibility and feasability of "having a PC/MAC in every bunk" Among the problems that the committee has identified are the power load (on older "dormatory" facilities). As far as financing goes, by making it a part of the fee structure, this part of college expense will be eligible for the student loan process (as well as it works!) Tom Richardson Assoc Prof Chemistry Department DICKSONT@CITADEL.BITNET Charleston SC 29409 .edu also works ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 09:18:27 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Gooey Computing > In a DOS only environment without a GUI, it doesn't mater how > sophisticated the network programs are, you are still in a command > line interface mode and not a true WYSIWYG environment so essential > to not just modern chemistry, but to computing in general. I run ChiWriter as a true WYSIWYG word processor. It has an excellent handling of multi level expressions with growing WYSIWYG structures that expand as you build equations and formulae. It runs under DOS. > If not why is Windows a runnaway best seller on top of DOS today and > why are DOS applications declining in sales wrt their Windows > analogues. There is no accounting for taste or naivete (mine). I have purchased Procomm for Windows, Quattro Pro for Windows, and Mathcad for Windows. I prefer and still use the DOS versions of these programs; particularly Procomm. Starting from a command line does not mean that the program necessarily runs from a command line. If the Lord had intended that we use mice, she would not have given us fingers with which to type. > Compelling studnets into a DOS only environment seems to me to have > the same relevence to modern Chemputing as would BASIC programming > courses! Gee, I feel like one of the scenic attractions in Jurassic Park. I think that some of the "modern", structured, compiled versions of BASIC such as QuickBasic are not terribly different from "in" languages such as C. Perhaps I should teach my BASIC problem solving course in the History Department. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------- | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 08:40:55 +22306404 From: "Dr. John A. Pojman" Subject: What Undergraduates need to Know Regarding what every undergraduate chemistry major should know about computers and programming: What must not forget that we are educating chemists -- not programmers. Students should be familiar with programming in a higher language such as FORTRAN or C. I prefer FORTRAN because of the vast libraries of routines available. Maybe C is "better" but I can't say myself. Even if Esperonto is more logical than English, not teaching English would be a mistake for anyone who wants to communicate in the scientific world. We want our students to use computers for what they are good at: Manipulation of large amout of data. Therefore, knowledge of data analysis and fitting programs like Kaleidagraph are emphasized along with word processing. Students have choice of DOS based packages or Mac ones. THey want in line for the Mac ones. I encourage them to learn as many packages as possible, to familiar with DOS even if it is a pain to use, in order to be flexible in later employment/grad school situations later. Regarding numerical analysis: Knowing a great deal about methods is not chemistry. However, anyone using numerical techniques should be aware of the limitations of computers, even if they could not write the program themselves. THat's what professional programmers are paid to do. -- John A. Pojman, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry (601) 266-5035 FAX: (601) 266-5829 INTERNET: pojman@whale.st.usm.edu or: pojman@wave.st.usm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 09:44:44 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 1 discussion >My feeling is that it is not practical to make courses on >electronics, interfacing, and computer programming a REQUIREMENT >for ALL chemistry majors, many of whom want to be physicians or >dentists, not scientists. Even most scientists treat these aspects >as "black box". Here at U. of Maryland I have taught >for many years separate upper-level undergraduate ELECTIVE courses >on those subjects. These turn out to be quite popular with >graduate students, who appreciate more than the typical undergraduate >the utility of such ancillary topics for their research. The >experiments emphasize group projects in which student teams design, >construct, program, and test simple computer-automated measurement >systems from basic parts (ADCs, op. amps, stepper motors, >monochromators, etc.), apply digital signal enhancement algorithms, >explore aspects of computer graphics, networking, and data exchange >between platforms. > I agree. We strongly recommend a Physics taught electronics course and a computer science course in either packages or a higher level language, C or Fortran. I also teach the instrumentation course I described last night in fourth year and an interpretive spectroscopy (IR, NMR, MS, UV etc) in third year. Listserv at UMDD doesn't like me -- I'm the undetermined origin three messages that went out this morning. Sometimes it takes them and sometimes it rejects them from the same e-mail package -- the only Listserv I have trouble with. Prof. Jack M. Miller, Dept. of Chemistry, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ont. L2S 3A1, Canada jmiller@spartan.ac.brocku.ca Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 10:10:45 EDT From: "C. H. Lochmuller" Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know In-Reply-To: <9306221359.AA05918@umd5.umd.edu>; from "Dr. John A. Pojman" at Jun 22, 93 8:40 am > What must not forget that we are educating chemists -- not programmers. > Students should be familiar with programming in a higher language such > as FORTRAN or C. I prefer FORTRAN because of the vast libraries of routines > line for the Mac ones. I encourage them to learn as many packages as > possible, to familiar with DOS even if it is a pain to use, in order to > be flexible in later employment/grad school situations later. > John A. Pojman, Ph.D. said: I find no inconvenience in using Windows environment for any of the tasks mentioned. As for Fortran, there are few chemical applications written in recent times and commercially available that are FORTRAN-based. The fact is that our Freshman do Allinger-type calculations as stereochem homework including simulated 3D presentaion but need not write a line of code. If students are standing in line for MAC use and MAC application, it is because the DOS environment they are confronted with is on a par with Fortran IIc. There are few wordprocessing advantages in a MAC environment that are not matched or bettered in a Windows application. And the cost per student is less { i486 engines are under $1K now}. Numerical analysis can be presented much the way IR, NMR, and MS are by the organic faculty - a tool whose physics is important but not a problem in routine application. Even helping student understanding is only a question of leading them through an eigenanalysis using computer projection and eigen movies in class. CHL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 10:22:55 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know >Regarding what every undergraduate chemistry major should know about >computers and programming: > >What must not forget that we are educating chemists -- not programmers. >Students should be familiar with programming in a higher language such >as FORTRAN or C. I prefer FORTRAN because of the vast libraries of routines >available. Maybe C is "better" but I can't say myself. Even if >Esperonto is more logical than English, not teaching English would be >a mistake for anyone who wants to communicate in the scientific world. > If by "familiar" you mean a reading knowledge, to get some idea what the program does, fine, but to get familiar you can either take the same course the programers do or have a couple of lectures to give you theprinciples, and take a self instruction book. Whith two one hour lectures in Fortran I've written large programs, been a consultant to instrument vendors etc. -- i.e. self taught. Its a question of what you do with it afterward. In most cases the vendors do not give you access to source code so knowing the language won't help you debug their programs. As you say below --datsa manipulation and using packages are the key. >We want our students to use computers for what they are good at: Manipulation >of large amout of data. Therefore, knowledge of data analysis and fitting >programs like Kaleidagraph are emphasized along with word processing. >Students have choice of DOS based packages or Mac ones. THey want in >line for the Mac ones. I encourage them to learn as many packages as >possible, to familiar with DOS even if it is a pain to use, in order to >be flexible in later employment/grad school situations later. > >Regarding numerical analysis: Knowing a great deal about methods is not >chemistry. However, anyone using numerical techniques should be aware >of the limitations of computers, even if they could not write the program >themselves. THat's what professional programmers are paid to do. > > >-- > >John A. Pojman, Ph.D. >Assistant Professor >Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry >(601) 266-5035 >FAX: (601) 266-5829 >INTERNET: pojman@whale.st.usm.edu >or: pojman@wave.st.usm.edu Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 08:22:04 EST From: Caesar Senoff Subject: Re: Paper 1 In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Jun 1993 01:14:00 CDT from Could you provide some more information about the "shareware spreadsheet ASEASYAS"? Caesar Senoff Department of Chemistry & Biochemistry University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario, CANADA, N1G 2W1 Chmsenof@vm.UoGuelph.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 17:17:35 RSA From: Leslie Glasser <009LGZS@WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: Paper 1 In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Jun 1993 08:22:04 EST from ASEASYAS is an excellent spreadsheet for general use. The graphics, particular ly, is easily accessible from within the sheet; the program is fast; it is reas onably economical of memory (but only of standard memory); it is largely compat ible with 1-2-3. It does lack some sophisticated functions, but it is excellen t value for money, at $50. Available from Trius, Inc., PO Box 249, N. Andover , MA 01845-1639. Tel: 508-794-9377 FAX: 508-688-6312. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (Prof.) Leslie Glasser Dept. of Chemistry E_MAIL: 009LGZS@WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA University of the Witwatersrand Tel: (011)-716-2070 WITS 2050 FAX: (011)-339-7967 South Africa ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 17:25:26 RSA From: Leslie Glasser <009LGZS@WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Jun 1993 10:10:45 EDT from With regard to wordprocessing for students (or anyone!), it is hard to beat LaT ex together with the windowing environment, TEXSHELL.Both are available free, i n an excellent DOS implementation (emTeX) and it is does the best imaginable jo b of layout, especially of mathematics. It is a bit of a pain to set up, but there is no more training required than fo r, say, WordPerfect. It is not WYSIWIG, but almost transparently obvious in it s layout. LG ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (Prof.) Leslie Glasser Dept. of Chemistry E_MAIL: 009LGZS@WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA University of the Witwatersrand Tel: (011)-716-2070 WITS 2050 FAX: (011)-339-7967 South Africa ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 22:50:33 -0600 From: "Douglas A. Coe" Subject: Paper #1 - Computer Course for Chem Majors We are beginning a discussion centered on offering a computer course (really a series of two credit sequenced lecture/laboratory courses at the sophomore, junior, and senior levels) for chemistry majors. While computer courses are available through the computer science department, their emphasis and examples are not really what we would like our majors to be exposed to. WHAT OTHER INSTITUTIONS OFFER COMPUTER COURSES FOR THEIR MAJORS? WHAT DO YOU DO IN THESE COURSES? HOW ARE THEY STRUCTURED? The topics we are considering include DOS, WINDOWS, wordprocessing, spreadsheets, databases, drawing programs, curve fitting programs, statistical software, on-line searching, numerical methods, advanced math programs (e.g. MAPLE), programming languages, e-mail, the Internet, molecular modeling, and chemcial speciation programs. ANY COMMENTS CONCERNING THE APPROPRIATENESS (OR LACK THEREOF) OF THESE TOPICS WOULD BE APPRECIATED. Doug Coe Montana College of Mineral Science and Technology dacoe%mtvms2.mtech.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 12:40:49 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: Gooey Computing In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Jun 1993 09:18:27 EDT from The Windows version of Mathcad is far superior to the DOS version--mice notwithstanding. Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 12:42:05 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Jun 1993 08:40:55 +22306404 from We are rapidly approaching a time when knowledge of FORTRAN will be unnecessary. With all of the user-friendly tools available to perform a wide variety of tasks including those that are included in the libraries that you mention, it's difficult to justify the time spent on teaching FORTRAN. On Tue, 22 Jun 1993 08:40:55 +22306404 Dr. John A. Pojman said: >Regarding what every undergraduate chemistry major should know about >computers and programming: > >What must not forget that we are educating chemists -- not programmers. >Students should be familiar with programming in a higher language such >as FORTRAN or C. I prefer FORTRAN because of the vast libraries of routines >available. Maybe C is "better" but I can't say myself. Even if >Esperonto is more logical than English, not teaching English would be >a mistake for anyone who wants to communicate in the scientific world. > >We want our students to use computers for what they are good at: Manipulation >of large amout of data. Therefore, knowledge of data analysis and fitting >programs like Kaleidagraph are emphasized along with word processing. >Students have choice of DOS based packages or Mac ones. THey want in >line for the Mac ones. I encourage them to learn as many packages as >possible, to familiar with DOS even if it is a pain to use, in order to >be flexible in later employment/grad school situations later. > >Regarding numerical analysis: Knowing a great deal about methods is not >chemistry. However, anyone using numerical techniques should be aware >of the limitations of computers, even if they could not write the program >themselves. THat's what professional programmers are paid to do. > > >-- > >John A. Pojman, Ph.D. >Assistant Professor >Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry >(601) 266-5035 >FAX: (601) 266-5829 >INTERNET: pojman@whale.st.usm.edu >or: pojman@wave.st.usm.edu Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 18:17:00 +0000 From: Karl Oberholser Subject: Re: Nature of Courses The computer course tha our majors take has an emphasis on learning how to use different software packages with an introduction to programing. These packages are then used throughout the chemistry curriculum. In the instrumental lab the focus is on learning how an instrument works but in the context of solving a real world problem, at least a much as possible. Many of our instruments have commercial interfaces with computers. To give the students some insight as to what is happening in that interface we have interfaced a DB spectrometer with a computer using Labtech Notebook as the software. This software permits the manipulation of the data in a number of different ways so that the students can study the different ways of software enhancement of the S/N. Doing this experiment opens the students' eyes as to what is taking place in the commercial instruments. The use of word processors and spreadsheets are required in the preparation of the lab reports. Students in the biochemistry lab analyze their kinetic data using a program developed using the RS1 software package. This program calculates the constants using two different linear methods and the fitfunction rountine, which is available in RS1, to analyze the hyperbolic curve. The program does an error analysis of the three methods. The students are asked to compare and discuss the results of the three methods. There are a large number of non- majors in the course, and that is why the focus is on the comparison of the results and not on the details of the data analysis. ....................................................................... Item Subject: Signature Karl M. Oberholser Internet: oberhols@mcis.messiah.edu Natural Science Dept. Voice: 717-766-2511 Messiah College Fax: 717-691-6002 Grantham, PA 17027 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 13:40:15 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know Prof Glasser wrote: >With regard to wordprocessing for students (or anyone!), it is hard to beat LaT >ex together with the windowing environment, TEXSHELL.Both are available free, i >n an excellent DOS implementation (emTeX) and it is does the best imaginable jo >b of layout, especially of mathematics. >It is a bit of a pain to set up, but there is no more training required than fo >r, say, WordPerfect. It is not WYSIWIG, but almost transparently obvious in it >s layout. >LG And a horse and bugy will still get you from a to b. TEX and its variants was a great mainframe tex setting system for complex equations for those familiar with FORTRAN, but to use it in this day and age is to frighten students from the true potential of word processors that include their graphics, equations, tables etc. If a student is writing on the word processor, whh they should be doing, the ability to see what you wrote is all important. Try visualizing your page from the formulaic TEX jargon. Don't use it just because it is free or cheap. It may not be worth it and it may train students in the wrong direction. WYSIWYG is available, it is not expensive whether Word for WIndows or Wordperfect with academic discounts. We should be teaching for the next generation, not the past. We should be using, not what we were comfortable with as students, (FORTRAN II -- that dates me, and TITAN autocode), not what has been around for years, but we should be preparing students for the 21st century. CHEMCONF is supposed, I thought, to be about thenew technologies in teaching chemistry, but I hear a lot of defense of outmoded hardware and software. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 13:54:32 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper #1 - Computer Course for Chem Majors > We are beginning a discussion centered on offering a computer course >(really a series of two credit sequenced lecture/laboratory courses at the >sophomore, junior, and senior levels) for chemistry majors. While computer >courses are available through the computer science department, their >emphasis and examples are not really what we would like our majors to be >exposed to. As a chemist returning to full time in chemistry after three years as chair of our computer science department I could suggest that youmight get your computer scientists to put on a course directed at chemists or scientists other that computer scientists. Half our COSC enrolement is in such survice courses for the University. COSC does a FORTRAn course for Physics and Chemisstry students. There are also service courses that introduce packages, word processing, spreadsheets, databases, stats packages and networking. We have three one semester courses as a sequence. Well prepared students from high school can enter the middle one, those with no background the lower, and take one, two or three courses. WHAT OTHER INSTITUTIONS OFFER COMPUTER COURSES FOR THEIR >MAJORS? WHAT DO YOU DO IN THESE COURSES? HOW ARE THEY STRUCTURED? > > The topics we are considering include DOS, WINDOWS, >wordprocessing, spreadsheets, databases, drawing programs, curve fitting >programs, statistical software, on-line searching, All this is offered by our COSC service courses numerical methods, >advanced math programs (e.g. MAPLE), these are in our Math courses -- all calculus courses use MAPLE >programming languages, e-mail, the >Internet, In cosc courses, thouugh various lab modules may involve internet usage as well as library tools for essays >molecular modeling, a chemistry course in forth year and part of others and chemcial speciation programs. ANY >COMMENTS CONCERNING THE APPROPRIATENESS (OR LACK THEREOF) OF THESE TOPICS >WOULD BE APPRECIATED. > Don't reinvent the wheel unless you can't get anyone else to do it on your campus. Chemists should teach chemical computing, leaving the mechanical basics toothers -- what may be a legit COSC credit looks funny on a transcript labelled "Chemistry". They are tools that every chemist needs, but shouldn't be chemistry courses on the most part. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 13:37:02 +22306404 From: "Dr. John A. Pojman" Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know In-Reply-To: <9306221711.AA20395@umd5.umd.edu> from "Jim Holler" at Jun 22, 93 12:42:05 pm I would have to agree with Jim Holler when he says: > > We are rapidly approaching a time when knowledge of FORTRAN will be > unnecessary. With all of the user-friendly tools available to perform > a wide variety of tasks including those that are included in the libraries > that you mention, it's difficult to justify the time spent on teaching > FORTRAN. I would like students to have a better understanding of the problems of computations, such as roundoff error. We were using a subroutine from Numerical Recipes to calculate the slope of a line and the standard deviation of the slope. The answers we obtained for the standard deviation were dependent on what platform we used, i.e., a Mactran compiled FORTRAN code gave a different answer then the same code compiled on a IBM RISC/6000 workstation. A Hypercard implementation agreed with the RISC results so we concluded that Mactran compiler was not carrying the calculations with enough precision. I don't think you need to be an ace programmer to appreciate the limitations of any software, but wonder if the average programming course addresses this issue enough? -- John A. Pojman, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry (601) 266-5035 FAX: (601) 266-5829 INTERNET: pojman@whale.st.usm.edu or: pojman@wave.st.usm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 15:19:18 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Gooey Computing >The Windows version of Mathcad is far superior to the DOS version--mice >notwithstanding. > Hear, hear!! For the rodentphobes, any decent program has keyboard alternatives to manipulation of rodents, so rodophobia is no excuse not to make use of a GUI with WYSISYG capabilities. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 15:26:04 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know Jim Holler siad >We are rapidly approaching a time when knowledge of FORTRAN will be >unnecessary. With all of the user-friendly tools available to perform >a wide variety of tasks including those that are included in the libraries >that you mention, it's difficult to justify the time spent on teaching >FORTRAN. I agree 100%. How many of theparticipants have access to the Fortran code of the packages they use (most are likely in C anyway). I know what I have to go through in signing non-disclosure agreements etc. to get access to source code of my mass spec and nmr programs on my large instruments. In one case I won a copy of the source code by betting on what bad programming practice had been used in it which I detected from the performance without ever having seen a line of the code. If you plan to become a theoretician writng new algorithms then you need to become a good programmer. Almost all the types of programming refered to in these discussions caould just as well be done, or perhaps better done with Excel macros in a spreadsheet. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 14:21:00 CDT From: Ray Sommers Subject: Paper 1 - ASEASYAS ASEASYAS is also available as shareware from just about any shareware source. Last year I used version 4.0 since it fit on one 360 K floppy. The latest version is 5.5 with lots of new features. Generally the files are compatable with Lotus 123 and Quatro (&Quatro Pro). Quatro Pro is available to our students on our network but since many have their own computers at home they appreciate their own copy of ASEASYAS. ASEASYAS is also available to them via our library's CDROM with the PCSIG collection of shareware (over 2000 disks of stuff). |==================================================================| | | | Ray Sommers, Chem Dept. +----+----+ | | | | U of Wis @ Stevens Point | | | | | / \ Stevens Point WI 54481 /^\ | /^\ | | / UWSP \ rsommers@spu1.uwsp.edu (___) | (___) | | (__________) rsommers@uwspmail.uwsp.edu /^\ | |==================================================================| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 14:37:19 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Student Computer requirements I have prepared the following memo to the faculty in my department based on the discuss on paper #1 and other thoughts. We are an applied science department, food science, which uses many aspects of chemistry, biochemistry, physics, chemical engineering etc. I myself have been using computers since my undergraduate days at MIT in 1958 and have gone through many conversions. Is the world around us moving faster than we can keep up and with the financial crises occuring at most institutions will this electronic revolution grind to a halt or should it be the way to go to educate if the cost can be shown to be minimal. You may share the comments with your own faculty and I would appreciate any additions, corrections, other useful software or other examples. At both the graduate and undergraduate level we want our students to be knowledgeable and able to handle work in a computer environment. They will certainly be exposed to required to do that when they leave here. I have been tracking the first computerchem conference on a listserve on email. It certainly illustrates why math/calculus is the key to scientific language? What I have come to as a conclusion is that students by the time they graduate should: 1. Know how to handle at least three environments eg DOS, AMAC, OS2, Widows, UNIX etc 2. Know the rudiments of programmining, this teaches logic and illustrate how computer interfaces work on instruments; for example on a densitometer, HPLC or GC the insturument measures signal over noise as a function of time (or distance), stores the data in an array and then derivatizes the signal-time function and measures when ds/dt = 0 to get the start, maxima (ie retention time or retention distance) and end point. It also intergrates the signal-time (distance curve) to give area and multiplies by a constant (supplied by the user) to get the total concentration. Do students understand this, do theyt know how to write a program to do this? I think that they should be able to do it. Mac users should also be exposed to the rudiments of the scripting language in Hypercard. There are many programs available that use this and they can increase their productivity by making such stacks for their own analysis of data. This is what has been done for all the problem sets in FScN 5555 and 8312. 3. Given 2 above, the same thing can be learned in a spread sheet. Spreadsheets are higher order languages using math and english notation to do the same thing. Once they learn to do spreadsheets they have a much better way to handle their own data. They should learn at least Excell or Lotus. 4. Many of they blindly use both linear and non-linear regression packages without understanding them. Again simple techniques need to be understood in programming so they see why it works? For example why do most non-linear packages use the derivative method, ie the proposed equation is differentiated for each constant and then the method finds when a change in one constants causes a minimum change in all other consatants for all values of Y as a function of X. As noted by J. Pojman on the computerchem conference in regards to numericall analysis" Knowing a great deal about the methods is not chemistry. However anyone using numerical analysis should be aware of the limitations of computers, even if they could not write the programs themselves. That's what professional progranmmers are paid to do". How many of us complain about the number of significant figures handed in on problem sets, thats at least one complaint we did not have back in the days of the slide rule. There are many good packages for non-linear regression today including Sigmaplot (both Mac and IBM) and Excell as well as the new Mac and IBM versions of JMP which is a PC based SAS. They should be able to use this. This would then get them exposed to using the PC for statistical data analysis. I presume that they do this in stats classes, ie use the PC although some places it is still done on the mainframe in a dinosaur like fashion unless they use a network to transfer in the data. 5. They also should learn one or two graphics packages and feel comfortable in making pie charts, bar graphs with error bars, and scatterplots with confidence limits. They should also be able to understand the meaning of the constants when the graphics package runs a polynomial or exponentila regrassion of the data for plotting. This can be learned in many packages such as Sigmaplot and the Spreadsheets but also in Deltagraph, Kaleaida graph, Cricket Graph, Plot It etc. 6. They should learn some drawing program. Many are available such a Canvas, McDraw etc. This insures that they can handle illustrations and download Clipart into their drawings for exporting to a printer or to a word processing document. 7. They should have competency in using a visual aids graphics program in color, ie a slide and overhead making program. This will be essential to insure they have excellent communications skills. One of the best is PowerPoint but even newer ones are coming on the market that will incorporate run time movies and sound. 8. They must learn how to use e-mail and use a network system by logging onto the internet and use the resources like Archie, Veronica and Jughead to find and retrieve information. The minimum should be experience with something like Fetch, Gopher or Telenet. They should learn how to access peripherals on a network and transfer data. 9. They should know how to use a word processor inconjuction with an equation editor and possibly a chemical drawing program. Of the latter, there are many different ones available such as Mathcad, Chemwindows, Mathtype, Chemintosh etc. For the word processing I prefer Word for both the IBM and Mac environments since they can easily transfer formatted documents between them. The major questions any department must need to adress to implement this is whether: 1. we should be teaching this ourselves or should the "XXX" department do it? If us, do we create a regular course. Who will teach it? If service (education) is our goal, shouldn't we be implementing this now? Can we hire someone outside to do this? Why not have a yearly seminar course (ie freshman, sophomore etc) that is used to teach these skills? 2. We should be using this stuff ourselves (perhaps not all of us doing programming) and certainly incorporate and require the use of the skills where appropriate in all courses. 3. We should insist that students hand in homework by email to save time and paper. Word 5.1a allows the marking of annotated notes in the original document on disk so that you can correct in this way. email allows the transfer of attached documents with graphics. 4. We should be using spreadsheet analysis in any of our courses where data analysis is required. We can learn this easily and set up our test scores on a speardsheet. That is a quick way to learn about some of the imbedded macros. 5. All faculty should have as a minimum working knowledge of word processing, graphing, spreadsheets using some type of data analysis and visual aid programs. Perhaps we need to teach us first. Who will do this? If we don't then our students will be at a disadvantage in other courses which require such skills and certainly when they eave for a job.Even US highschool students are learning these skills. We cannot tolerate the situation where we will be using the equivalant of a sliderule when the students are using the Thinkpad or Powerbook. We should discuss this at the next faculty meeting and certainly in the program committee meetings. The Computer committee should survey the courses in the department to findout what is being done and used. Dr Ted Labuza tplabuza@EPX.CIS.UMN.EDU or tplabuza@staff.tc.umn.edu Department of Food Science & Nutrition 136 AMLMS U of Minnesota St Paul, MN 55108 Home Fax 612-633-0627 Voice 612-624-9701 UM Fax 612-625-5272 "SURFING THE WAVES OF CYBERSPACE" ___ || | \| |__| | ---|---- / \ |___/__/\_____/ \ /\ /\ /\/\/\/\ / \ /\ / \/ \ /\/ \ / \/ \/ \/ \/ Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once". Except in my office which exists in a time warp!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 15:42:27 +0000 From: Ray Johnson Subject: Re: Comp. Course for Chem. Majors In answer to the question about "Computer Courses courses for Chem. Majors" ( Doug Coe), I would say what he has planned is similar to what I currently do in a course called Computer Applications in Chemistry (2 hours). Since my course started in 1974, and is offered every other year, it has never been the same course twice. It started as a programming course using mainframes (" Fortran and Basic to solve chemical problems"), later it was more of a data analysis and numerical analysis course using these languages along with a few quantum mechanical calculations thrown in, was later modified to be carried out on IBM-PC's and also used these and Apple-II's for data acquisition and analysis. However the last two times I have offered the course it has emphasized applications packages, and now has very little traditional programming in it. The college spent a great deal of money buying Macintosh Computers so now most of the applications packages are on Mac II's with instruments interfaced to IBM clones. The last time I offered the course ( Spring 1992) I covered wordprocessing (Microsoft Word), spreadsheets (Excel), drawing (Chem Draw and ChemIntosh for chemical drawing and Canvas and a CAD program to draw instruments, circuit diagrams, etc.), statistics (simple stuff with Cricket Graph and more complex with Stat View), advanced mathematics using Mathematica (I spent 3 weeks using the book by Ellis and Lodi, which is a good intro. to Mathematica in a tutorial format, students did equation solving, sets, 2D and 3D graphing, numerical and symbolic differentiation and integration, curve fitting, matrix operations, statistical functions), literature searching using STN, an overview of DOS commands and Windows, how to use a scanner and OCR (Wordscan by Calera), and a limited amount of programming (Quickbasic) since I still can't face up to teaching a computer course with absolutely no programming. Students were also required to set up an experiment and run it on an HPLC (Waters-Maxima) and an FTIR (Bio-Rad- Galactic Software) and to examine effects of resolution, S/N, smoothing, deconvolution, apodization functions, zerofill, etc. on an infrared spectrum. Students take this course at the same time as they take Physical Chemistry lab and they are required to incorporate the techniques that they have learned into their lab reports for P. Chem. I have also used several specific application programs over the years (SpectraCalc, NMR and IR simulators, Huckel MO Programs come to mind but there have been many others). These programs usually depend on what is new at the time. Since the last time I taught the course we now have e-mail and Internet so I plan to include these next Spring. We have also purchased HyperChem (by Autodesk) and I can't wait to include many good things from it into the course next spring. I have also taught students how to add memory, change boards and hard drives etc. (usually not a planned part of the course, simply fixing whatever broke). To anyone who wants to offer this type of course I would say: 1. Plan to revise the course every time you offer it because the hardware and software changes every year. 2. I have taught the course for 18 years and it is more fun to teach than any other course (and much more fun now, with applications programs, than it ever was in the days of Fortran and Basic). Ray Johnson Hillsdale College Hillsdale, MI 49242 ray.johnson@ac.hillsdale.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 14:57:47 +22306404 From: "Dr. John A. Pojman" Subject: Re: Gooey Computing In-Reply-To: <9306221950.AA01805@umd5.umd.edu> from "Jack Martin Miller" at Jun 22, 93 03:19:18 pm Jack Martin wrote: > For the rodentphobes, any decent program has keyboard alternatives to > manipulation of rodents, so rodophobia is no excuse not to make use of a > GUI with WYSISYG capabilities. > His comment about fear for mice prompts a question: Do faculty not like the Mac/Windows mouse and menus approach simply because they did not grow up playing video games? When teaching a workshop, I found that most faculty had a heck of a time manipulating the mouse, a problem I have never seen the average student have. If my hypothesis is correct, than faculty who scoff at GUI and mice, are holding their students back from interacting with computers at the level that they are most comfortable. I would hate that some in our time would complain about the video revolution the way some elder Greeks no doubt complained about writing. "Kids today don't know how to memorize 20,000 lines of the Iliad, all they do is read all day!" -- John A. Pojman, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry (601) 266-5035 FAX: (601) 266-5829 INTERNET: pojman@whale.st.usm.edu or: pojman@wave.st.usm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 15:54:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: COMPUTERS AND WHAT STUDENTS NEED TO KNOW PAPER 1 - COMPUTERS AND WHAT STUDENTS NEED TO KNOW From: Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET Date: June 22, 1993 ===================================================================== In response to a comments on Monday, June 21 at 22:01 and 22:09 from Professor Jack Martin Miller re: Question B and F and my answers Many years ago I did a considerable amount of computing (mostly statistical and numerical methods) on an IBM mainframe. This was at a time when punched cards and batch processing was the state of the art. The turn-around time was typically an hour or more. I programmed mostly in FORTRAN. One of the frustrations (other than turn-around time) was JCL (job control language). Very often jobs wouldn't run because I forget (or didn't know enough) to insert a card with /* or some such thing. Fortunately, I don't have to contend with that sort of thing anymore. I'm afraid I can not get very excited about an MS DOS versus WINDOWS or IBM versus Mac debate. I've used WINDOWS and the Mac a little. Personally, I think that a mouse and icons are very useful for children and perhaps those who are just learning to use computers. I don't see any particular advantage in these things for ME. I know that other people feel differently about this. I DON"T REALLY WANT TO DEBATE THESE TOPICS. Personally, I'm waiting for the day when voice recognition and more intelligence is built into computers (and instruments) and I will be able to tell them what it is I want to do and the computers (and instruments) will do what I tell them without my having to do much work. That's when I'll get really excited. I don't really care whether my software runs under MS DOS, WINDOWS or something else as long as I can do what I want and the software is reasonably user friendly. Professor Martin predicts that Windows will replace MS DOS. He is probably correct. Windows will continue to be up-graded and DOS will become extinct. None of the software I used for my course required Windows. The RS/6000 does run X-Windows. Some of the modelling software used in the organic chemistry course does use Windows or X-Windows. ====================================================================== In response to my questions (see Question O): * WHAT DOES EVERY UNDERGRADUATE CHEMISTRY MAJOR NEED TO KNOW ABOUT * COMPUTERS AND COMPUTING? ***************************************** * WHAT SHOULD EVERY GRADUATE STUDENT KNOW? ************************** Tom O'Haver responded (June 22 06:43 EDT): > My feeling is that it is not practical to make courses on > electronics, interfacing, and computer programming a REQUIREMENT > for ALL chemistry majors, many of whom want to be physicians or > dentists, not scientists. I don't necessarily disagree with Tom's statement. However, I was considering students working for an ACS certified degree. What should an undergraduate student who is planning to pursue a career in chemistry need to know? (At many schools students (pre-meds, etc.) can major in chemistry without obtaining an ACS certified degree.) I do believe that it is not necessary for ALL chemistry majors to learn very much about electronics and interfacing in chemistry courses. However, I believe they should have some familiarity with interfaced instruments, word processing, numerical and statistical methods, spreadsheets and be able to program in a general purpose high level language. Of course, I am at a university where every student has a computer and ALL students are required to take at least one computing course. (Regarding pre-meds - hospitals, doctors and dentist's offices are very much computerized these days.) Should statistical mechanics and quantum mechanics be taught in undergraduate physical chemistry courses? Should the transuranium elements be taught in an undergraduate inorganic course? - After all these courses are taken by pre-meds. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 15:02:38 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Example Kinetics Program A lot of my work revolves around the shelf life testing of foods and drugs which essentially is te simple application of kinetics to time based data. With one of my graduate students I developed a very user friendly (many beta tests with students) Hypercard Stack which takes the data and does the proper transformations to determine the best order. It calciulates the r2 and SE values, plots the data, draws the regression line and confidence limits. It will calculate future values or values insuide the limits. The program is a good tool for research as well. The Mac mathchip gives very good results as compared to SAS. Several years ago when I used calculators it was interesting to see how different the values were between various brands of the. The HP always gave the best result as compared to a double percision program on the main frame written in Fortran. The second part of the program will then take the rate data from several temperatures and do an Arrhenius regression and calculate Ea and Q10 values. It is a good way to incorporate statistics with chemistry (eg in the literature some papersincorecctly use the SE as the tool to choose the best order) In another program I have developed we do the same thing and then also allow for input of time temperature data (or regular functions like sinewaves) and the students can do what ifs. These are available free to educational institutions by email. Leave me your address and I will send it, I will also think abouit putting it on the gopher network so it could be accessed by ftp. I have several others including Clausius Clapeyron, moisture diffusion kinetics by the Crank equation and am in the process of trying to do a similar kinetics program in Excell for microbial growth kinetics which can also be used for chenmical data. Dr Ted Labuza tplabuza@EPX.CIS.UMN.EDU or tplabuza@staff.tc.umn.edu Department of Food Science & Nutrition 136 AMLMS U of Minnesota St Paul, MN 55108 Home Fax 612-633-0627 Voice 612-624-9701 UM Fax 612-625-5272 "SURFING THE WAVES OF CYBERSPACE" ___ || | \| |__| | ---|---- / \ |___/__/\_____/ \ /\ /\ /\/\/\/\ / \ /\ / \/ \ /\/ \ / \/ \/ \/ \/ Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once". Except in my office which exists in a time warp!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 16:04:00 -0400 From: RICHARD GRAHAM Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know I wholeheartedly agree on the comments of Jack Miller about the use of TeX or any of its variants. i used similar systems on the old DEC PDP11/23 and on the Prime 850. Both were cumbersome to use. Each had the .command structure and you never could _KNOW_ what the product would look like until it was printed and printed and printed and printed, ..... The equation editor in Word Perfect for Windows (or WP5.1) works very well. The beauty is that you see on the monitor what the equation will look like _BEFORE_ it is printed. It is somewhat cumbersome since you must "leave" the document to enter the equation editing screen, but it's a lot less cumbersome and _EASIER_ to visualize than TeX documents. I wish that WordPerfect had used the algorithm that another equation editor addin I used under WP 5.0 and Word 4.0 (Can't remember the name) and that is .. as you typed in the commands, the image grew before your eyes without having to press the REDISPLAY button. Dick Graham Towson State University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 15:17:03 +22306404 From: "Dr. John A. Pojman" Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know In-Reply-To: <9306222007.AA02933@umd5.umd.edu> from "Jack Martin Miller" at Jun 22, 93 03:26:04 pm > > Jim Holler siad > >We are rapidly approaching a time when knowledge of FORTRAN will be > >unnecessary. With all of the user-friendly tools available to perform > >a wide variety of tasks including those that are included in the libraries > >that you mention, it's difficult to justify the time spent on teaching > >FORTRAN. > > I agree 100%. How many of theparticipants have access to the Fortran code > of the packages they use (most are likely in C anyway). I know what I have > to go through in signing non-disclosure agreements etc. to get access to > source code of my mass spec and nmr programs on my large instruments. In > one case I won a copy of the source code by betting on what bad programming > practice had been used in it which I detected from the performance without > ever having seen a line of the code. > If you plan to become a theoretician writng new algorithms then you need > to become a good programmer. Almost all the types of programming refered to > in these discussions caould just as well be done, or perhaps better done > with Excel macros in a spreadsheet. > > I am interested in knowing how common MAPLE or Mathematica are in the class/lab? I think we are on the verge of a major change in learning when these programs become cheap as calculators. Perhaps teaching programming is like teaching about slide rules? -- John A. Pojman, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry (601) 266-5035 FAX: (601) 266-5829 INTERNET: pojman@whale.st.usm.edu or: pojman@wave.st.usm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 16:24:42 -0400 From: "Mr. Science" Subject: Computers, and their Use in Chemistry Education A great deal has been said about the application of personal or mainframe computers in the education of future chemists. I would like to add my two cents worth at this point. Whether we teach using computers or not, our students (current and future) WILL be facing them in their work. How we advise them to use computers is probably the most important educational decision, IMHO, we can pass on to them with regard to instrumentation. The goal of using computers in chemistry, from my point of view, is as a tool to get to the answer for a problem I am working on. To use a computer to solve a problem, I must have some sense of what needs to be done and how the computer would assist in the solution. One must then weigh the pluses and minuses of using certain hardware and/or software. For example, our department wanted to incorporate some form of automation of data analysis so that our advanced labs would lose that component of anxiety that accompanied each writeup. Instead of teaching programming, we settled on doing least-squares analysis on a spreadsheet. This afforded us another advantage that could not be easily arrived at if we chose programming; graphical visualization of different chemical models. We have used spread- sheets to model Vib-Rot IR spectra, kinetic systems, among just a few. The impact on the students' appreciation of the information they were learning was impressive, to say the least. We even, this past year, incorporated the new program HyperChem in our Advanced chem Lab to allow students some exposure to Computational Chemistry; and the students loved it! With regard to instrumentation, computer interfacing has to explained, even if it means just rudimentary discussions. For example, in our PChem and Advanced Chem Labs, we do kinetics experiments using an HP Diode Array spectrometer with the kinetic software module. The data gets recorded on ASCII text files and we have the students incorporate them into a spread- sheet program to do data analysis. This keeps the students' attention on the experiment (automating the data collection), but does not isolate them from the experiment or allow them to become dependent on some software to do the actual analysis. We have even icorporated exercises that show the error of just blindly accepting the answers a piece of software spits out at you, without checking and verification. we have automated quite a few of our experiments, but it is a rudimentary form of automation, to allow the students to retain interest in the experiment (which previously may have had an unacceptable amount of tedium inherent in it), but at the same time keep them focused on the "thinking" aspect of chemical problem solving. In addition, we have developed a style of teaching in our PChem and Advanced Chem Labs that reminds the students that the data collected is reality, and the models they use are attempts to explain the reality they have observed. This, I feel, is the essential gist of using computers is to learn when to use them and when to step back. There may be times that necessitate special coding and software development, but these, in my experience, occur "in the field", so to speak - that is, in research. Students need to use the tools available to them. I feel the following are more than appropos to a chemistry major track: 1. Spreadsheets - data analysis, graphical visualization of models and results. 2. Word Processing - Simple text creation and editing. 3. Desktop Molecular Modelling software or Desktop Chemical Computational software. As for how a department incorporates them, I feel that is better left to each one to find out how to deal with that aspect. The department here at Georgetown prefers to incorporation relevant instruction within each course that requires it, usually at as minimal level as necessary. Regards, Tony ;> Date this awe-inspiring message was sent: 22-JUN-1993 15:42:15 *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* | Anthony V. Rosati | | | Department of Chemistry, | "A nation that cannot think, | | Georgetown University | cannot survive." | | Washington, D.C. 20057-2222 | | | ROSATI@GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU | - Norman Mailer, 1992 | | A_ROSATI@GUVAX.GEORGETOWN.EDU | National Press Club | # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # | Information Exchange Coordinator and Member, Board of Directors | | National Association of Graduate-Professional Students (NAGPS) | | 1993 - 1994 | *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 15:58:44 EDT From: Allan Smith In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 21 Jun 1993 22:01:29 -0400 from At Drexel we have had in place since 1984 a prgram in which each entering undergraduate is required to have access to a personal computer. In the begining of this program we chose the Apple Macintosh, and as the years have progressed we have remained with our initial choice, even though the actual machine or machines we recommend for purchase to the students have changed each year. The pwoer of the machines being offered to students this year awes me, especially since I chaired the unversity committee which initiated this program in 1984 and chose the 128 kB Macintosh with one 512 kB floppy drive as the standard. This year we offer students a choice of one of the following: "minimum machine": Mac Classic Color, 6 mB RAM, 80 MB hard drive next one up: Centris 610, 8 MB RAM, 230 MB hard drive top model: Centris 650, 8MB RAM, 230 MB hard drive Don't quote me, but in 1984 I think our mainframe had about these capabilities. I can't give prices, but they are a good deal better than street prices because we buy about 1100 computers for students. Our campus is literally awash in Macintoshes. Another significant part of our approach is to offer a bundle of Mac software (for $350): the present bundle includes MacWrite, Excel 4.0, Filemaker, MacDraw, Brushstrokes (a paint program), and of course Hypercard and System 7.1; there is a coupon given students to obtain one more package, which may be ClarisCad, PageMaker, TK Solver Plus, Think C or Think Pascal, plus a few others. How do students afford to buy this stuff? We of course get the best price we can, but we then point out that the overall price is a small fraction of the total tuition they will pay while at Drexel ( we do this in a much more polished way than I have described, of course). Computer cost can be covered by financial aid in the same way as regular tuition and fees. I guess we don't get applications from students who think that $2000 is too much to pay for a computer to have while they are undergraduates. More later about what we actually do with all of these cycles. Allan Smith, Drexel University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 16:25:59 -0500 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 1 discussion I have implemented computer interfaced labs for equillibrium and kinetics experiments. Both use LDC 600's interfaced via the RS 232 program. Students then analyze the data using easyplot, and write the report using the accesories available in windows. This generally works well, however I have some difficulty because of the difference in computing abilities of the students. Some are quite comfortable with windows while others barely know how to turn the computer on. I believe an introductory course on the use of PC's is a good idea. Our students are required to take Fortran, but this does not help them with the PC's. I am hoping to convince my colleagues to change the requirement. Physics courses do teach some electronics and interfacing, but it seems only a few of the students actually learn anything fro m this. I think these topics should be reinforced as much as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 16:30:04 EDT From: Allan Smith Subject: Re: Paper #1 - Computer Course for Chem Majors In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 21 Jun 1993 22:50:33 -0600 from I am teaching a graduate course in chemical information retrieval this summer as a pilot for a similar offering to undergraduates next year. WE do a lot more than just on-line searching, email, and Internet capabilities ( Gopher, WAIS, telnet, etc), but these topics are included. I'll be giving a paper on this course at the Chicago ACS meeting. Allan Smith, Drexel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 16:53:00 EST From: Bill Subject: Computer courses for chemists I teach a _Computers for Chemists_ course at a two year college. The course is given in the second semester of the freshman year. I use WordPerfect for wordprocessing, QuattroPro for spreadsheet work, and IBM BASICA for programming. We switched from a FORTRAN only course, to a FORTRAN and BASIC on pc course to the present arrangement. I'm thinking of doing more with spreadsheets and less programming in BASIC in the future. Has anyone looked at the new book out by D.M. Etter, _Quattro Pro A Software Tool for Engineers and Scientists_, published by Benjamin Cummings? Since DOS 5 and 6 include QBASIC, can anyone recommend an introductory text on QBASIC? We use Quattro for its regression and graphics capabilities and BASIC to create disk files of titration curves including first and second derivatives. These disk files are then imported into Quattro for viewing. The students e-mail their programs to me via the VAX. Bill Metzar Bitnet: metzar_w@snybccva Broome Community College Internet: metzar_w@sunybroome.edu Binghamton, NY 13902 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 17:04:00 CDT From: Ray Sommers Subject: Paper 1 ASEASYAS via FTP Just remembered that the ASEASYAS spreadsheet is also available via anonymous FTP. One site I found is: WUARCHIVE.WUSTL.EDU and it is in /mirrors/msdos/spreadsheet with filenames ASA55C-1.ZIP and ASA55C-2.ZIP |==================================================================| | | | Ray Sommers, Chem Dept. +----+----+ | | | | U of Wis @ Stevens Point | | | | | / \ Stevens Point WI 54481 /^\ | /^\ | | / UWSP \ rsommers@spu1.uwsp.edu (___) | (___) | | (__________) rsommers@uwspmail.uwsp.edu /^\ | |==================================================================| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 16:30:51 PST From: "Edward H. Piepmeier" Subject: Re[2]: Paper #1 Why Mac's and Windows? Jack Martin wrote: >For the rodentphobes, any decent program has keyboard alternatives >to manipulation of rodents, so rodophobia is no excuse not to make >use of a GUI with WYSISYG capabilities. >John A. Pojman replied: >His comment about fear for mice prompts a question: Do faculty not >like the Mac/Windows mouse and menus approach simply because they >did not grow up playing video games? When teaching a workshop, I >found that most faculty had a heck of a time manipulating the mouse, >a problem I have never seen the average student have. Why do students like Mac's? The most efficient use of a student's time when interacting with a computer program will be made when the commands are obvious to the student. Menu driven programs with short explanations of each menu item when it is selected (and more extensive context sensitive help when needed) are the best in this regard. Mac programs seem to require common menu items to be placed in the same menu structure (e.g. Print occurs under the File main menu in all programs I have used). Windows programs have tended to follow a similar pattern, as have some DOS programs. This consistency across platforms and programs helps the student to learn to use new programs more quickly and may be one reason why students like Mac and Window platforms. Just as important is the ability of a good menu to quickly remind the student about what commands are available, and to allow the student to do some quick trial and error lookups to find a new command. It is worthwhile to distinguish between a mouse and a good menu, although both are often present. Pointing with a mouse to select a menu item is not a fast as using the keyboard to select the item for an experienced "power user", but such pointing seems easier for new users and offers a break for someone who wishes to avoid the keyboard. On the other hand, many editing operations are faster to do with a mouse in a well written program (regardless of platform). >John A. Pojman also writes: >I am interested in knowing how common MAPLE or Mathematica are in the class/lab? I have personally used MAPLE and Mathcad in research, but not in courses. MAPLE has only a relatively short menu and has a long way to go to be useful without a manual, and even Mathcad for Windows could be improved in this regard. These both are high level languages with many useful procedures, but I would like to know how others have found them useful in courses to do things that cannot be done with spreadsheets that are much easier for students to use. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 23:46:12 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper1 I have some questions that I could not ask because I was out of town. Do your students remain in lab for the full three hours? Do the students have 6 hours of lab per week? I was not sure from the text. Why do You use nylon as the polymer? Wouldn't the standard polystyrene in toluene or methanol/toluene mixtures or BSA in aqueous urea mixtures be as good for the purpose. This might free up some lab time for a laser experiment or a molecular modeling exercise. I have some concern over the type of pchem experiments. My concern is similar to that of Moore and Schwenz. Pchem is not seen as being very exciting to many students because so many of the experiments seem out of date and do not reflect the current literature. I don't want to belabor the points raised by Ted Labuza about what every undergraduate should know. I came up with a very similar list. I would include introducing students to how the software gets into the computer. So many of my students are very neive about computers. I would also want my students to be able to do some simple trouble shooting when the printer or plotter doesn't work for them befor they holar uncle. Another item on my wish list is that students learn something about molecular modeling and molecular computation as used in a wide variety of research areas. Nothing fancy but surely the concepts of a z matrix and potential energy function. I would also hope for some molecular mechanics and quantum mechanics, at least at a very good semi-empirical level and beyond the black box level of most of these types of applications. What we teach in pchem lab should reflect to some degree what is appearing in the literature today and not what appeared in the literature 40 years ago. Some ideas about the operation and theory of lasers is very important. At Niagara University I insist that all lab reports be typed using a word processing program and that all tables be typed and all data analyzed using a spreadsheet. I use SC5 because it is very easy for first timers to learn and the graphics interface is simple. All plots are prepared using a 6 color plotter of a printer. I also introduced a MathCad exercise this year using it to study kinetics curves for reversible and series first order reactions. The students taught the program to themselves and did the required lab study in two afternoons (8 hours). Having them teach themselves builds their computer self confidence, important for so many of my students some of whom have not touched a computer in a scientific setting before. It is nice to read about all the facilities that some of you have for your students. I try to make up for a lack of facilities by a bit more novelty and creativity for teaching some of the same things that you guys at the bigger schools can do more easily. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 09:12:53 +0100 From: Hugh Cartwright Subject: Re: Computers, and their Use in Chemistry Education Obviously the question of how computers should be used in the laboratory, and how students should be taught to use them, is one about which many of us have strong views. It is not surprising then that the discussion on chemconf has thrown up arguments in favour of teaching everything from word processing and spreadsheets to Basic and FORTRAN programming. Probably almost every participant in chemconf is computer-literate, and feels that computers have an important place in the education of scientists. I certainly do. However, I am concerned about the possibility that we might overemphasize th e importance of computing. When we graduate chemists from our universities, their expertise must first and foremost be in chemistry. I am therefore a little concerned at comments like the following from Ted Labuza He suggests that students should... > Know how to handle at least three environments > eg DOS, AMAC, OS2, Widows, UNIX etc > Know the rudiments of programmining... > ...should also be exposed to the rudiments of the scripting language > in Hypercard. > They should learn at least Excell or Lotus. > They should be able to use [Sigmaplot (both > Mac and IBM) and Excell as well as the new Mac and IBM versions of JMP which i s > a PC based SAS] > They also should learn one or two graphics packages and feel comfortable in > making pie charts, bar graphs with error bars, and scatterplots with confidenc e > limits. They should also be able to understand the meaning of the constants wh en > the graphics package runs a polynomial or exponentila regrassion of the data f or > plotting. > They should learn some drawing program. > They should have competency in using a visual aids graphics program in color, > ie a slide and overhead making program. > They must learn how to use e-mail and use a network system by logging onto > the internet and use the resources like Archie, Veronica and Jughead to find a nd > retrieve information. > They should know how to use a word processor inconjuction with an equation > editor and possibly a chemical drawing program. This is quite a shopping list. As a computational chemist, I would be delighted if my students knew this much, but NOT if that knowledge were gained at the expense of a proper understanding of chemistry. There is only a limited amount of time available in the university year, and we need a balance between computing (which, surely, is a tool, not an end in itself) and science, which computers can help us to learn and understand. I am in sympathy with Donald Rosenthal, who writes: > I believe they should > have some familiarity with interfaced instruments, word processing, > numerical and statistical methods, spreadsheets and be able to > program in a general purpose high level language. Some might argue that chemistry now consists of four branches: organic, inorganic, physical and computational, and that the increasing emphasis on computers in chemistry merely reflects the changing nature of chemistry. We must be careful that, in our desire to make full use of computers, we do not lose the balance in our courses, diluting the chemistry content to a level at which we may produce students who are computer-literate, but scientifically second-rate. Hugh Cartwright Physical Chemistry, Oxford University, UK. @ @ Obviously t ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 05:48:08 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Re: Computers, and their Use in Chemistry Education In message Hugh Cartwright writes: > Obviously the question of how computers should be used in the laboratory, > and how students should be taught to use them, is one about which many of > us > have strong views. > > It is not surprising then that the discussion on chemconf has thrown up > arguments in favour of teaching everything from word processing and > spreadsheets to Basic and FORTRAN programming. Probably almost > every participant in chemconf is computer-literate, and feels that > computers have an important place in the education of scientists. > I certainly do. > > However, I am concerned about the possibility that we might overemphasize > th > e > importance of computing. When we graduate chemists from our universities, > their expertise must first and foremost be in chemistry. I am therefore > a little concerned at comments like the following > from Ted Labuza > > > He suggests that students should... > > > Know how to handle at least three environments > > eg DOS, AMAC, OS2, Widows, UNIX etc > > > Know the rudiments of programmining... > > > ...should also be exposed to the rudiments of the scripting language > > in Hypercard. > > > They should learn at least Excell or Lotus. > > > They should be able to use [Sigmaplot (both > > Mac and IBM) and Excell as well as the new Mac and IBM versions of JMP > > which i > s > > a PC based SAS] > > > They also should learn one or two graphics packages and feel comfortable in > > making pie charts, bar graphs with error bars, and scatterplots with > > confidenc > e > > limits. They should also be able to understand the meaning of the constants > > wh > en > > the graphics package runs a polynomial or exponentila regrassion of the > > data f > or > > plotting. > > > They should learn some drawing program. > > > They should have competency in using a visual aids graphics program in > > color, > > ie a slide and overhead making program. > > > They must learn how to use e-mail and use a network system by logging onto > > the internet and use the resources like Archie, Veronica and Jughead to > > find a > nd > > retrieve information. > > > They should know how to use a word processor inconjuction with an equation > > editor and possibly a chemical drawing program. > > > This is quite a shopping list. As a computational chemist, I would > be delighted if my students knew this much, but NOT if that knowledge > were > gained at the expense of a proper understanding of chemistry. > There is only a limited amount of time available in the university > year, and we need a balance between computing (which, surely, is a tool, > not an end in itself) and science, which computers can help us to learn > and understand. etc The reason for my long shopping list is not that we should be teaching all this in a chemistry class. rather this should be a total university/college goal and the skills should be practiced and used in all courses where applicable. When a student leaves for a job, more than likely they will be required to have some form of computer expertise, I doubt many will just end up running one type of instrument with one type of interface, so why not prepare them. The minimum would be word processing, graphics and spreadsheet analysis. They could use the word processing to do overheads for presentations which most of them will have to make. Several participants have suggested that we use only shareware, but my experience as a consultant with major companies (3M, P&G, Pillsbury for example) is that you need to use commercial $oftware since that's what the staff has and your work needs to be compatible. That brings up the dilema since such $oftware is costly to students and you want their work to be compatible with yours. I don't have a solution to that. Dr Ted Labuza Department of Food Science and Nutrition 136 ABLMS University of Minnesota St. Paul MN 55108 Voice 612-624-9701 or Home 612-633-8928 Fax 612-625-5272 or Home Fax 612-633-0627 There is no such thing as a poverty of time, rather there is a poverty of being able to say "NO". ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 05:54:50 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: paper1 Is it possible to obtain a copy of this MathCad exercise? It sounds like a good idea. Barbara Gaddis, UCCS, ColoradoSprings, CO 80933 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 08:57:24 EDT From: Felix Akojie Subject: Re: Paper 1 ASEASYAS via FTP In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Jun 93 21:33:56 EDT from Larry, thanks. I shall be back to Waller hall at about 11.10. I hope you will b e around to give me the updated version of the ASEASYAS. See you later. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 09:28:29 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Jun 1993 13:40:15 -0400 from Agree wholeheartedly on TeX. Try Ami Pro. It's got TeX built in to do math, and it is WYSIWYG. It also has a shallow learning curve. On Tue, 22 Jun 1993 13:40:15 -0400 Jack Martin Miller said: >Prof Glasser wrote: > >>With regard to wordprocessing for students (or anyone!), it is hard to beat >LaT >>ex together with the windowing environment, TEXSHELL.Both are available free, >i >>n an excellent DOS implementation (emTeX) and it is does the best imaginable >jo >>b of layout, especially of mathematics. >>It is a bit of a pain to set up, but there is no more training required than >fo >>r, say, WordPerfect. It is not WYSIWIG, but almost transparently obvious in >it >>s layout. >>LG > > >And a horse and bugy will still get you from a to b. TEX and its variants >was a great mainframe tex setting system for complex equations for those >familiar with FORTRAN, but to use it in this day and age is to frighten >students from the true potential of word processors that include their >graphics, equations, tables etc. If a student is writing on the word >processor, whh they should be doing, the ability to see what you wrote is >all important. Try visualizing your page from the formulaic TEX jargon. > >Don't use it just because it is free or cheap. It may not be worth it and >it may train students in the wrong direction. WYSIWYG is available, it is >not expensive whether Word for WIndows or Wordperfect with academic >discounts. We should be teaching for the next generation, not the past. We >should be using, not what we were comfortable with as students, (FORTRAN II >-- that dates me, and TITAN autocode), not what has been around for years, >but we should be preparing students for the 21st century. > >CHEMCONF is supposed, I thought, to be about thenew technologies in >teaching chemistry, but I hear a lot of defense of outmoded hardware and >software. >Jack Martin Miller >Professor of Chemistry >Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, >Brock University, >St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. > >Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 >FAX (416) 682 9020 >e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 09:33:10 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Jun 1993 15:26:04 -0400 from Another good example of this is HyperChem. It has about 100 person-years of Ph.D. expert programming in molecular mechanics and ab-initio MO built in, and it is amazingly easy to get up and running. Our students MUST learn to use these kinds of tools. In the unified WYSISYG environment of Windows and the Mac, once students learn how to operate the environment, they become productive very quickly. This is not true of programming languages. All of this serves to free them to think about chemistry rather than DO loops and arcane syntax. On Tue, 22 Jun 1993 15:26:04 -0400 Jack Martin Miller said: >Jim Holler siad >>We are rapidly approaching a time when knowledge of FORTRAN will be >>unnecessary. With all of the user-friendly tools available to perform >>a wide variety of tasks including those that are included in the libraries >>that you mention, it's difficult to justify the time spent on teaching >>FORTRAN. > >I agree 100%. How many of theparticipants have access to the Fortran code >of the packages they use (most are likely in C anyway). I know what I have >to go through in signing non-disclosure agreements etc. to get access to >source code of my mass spec and nmr programs on my large instruments. In >one case I won a copy of the source code by betting on what bad programming >practice had been used in it which I detected from the performance without >ever having seen a line of the code. > If you plan to become a theoretician writng new algorithms then you need >to become a good programmer. Almost all the types of programming refered to >in these discussions caould just as well be done, or perhaps better done >with Excel macros in a spreadsheet. > > >Jack Martin Miller >Professor of Chemistry >Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, >Brock University, >St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. > >Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 >FAX (416) 682 9020 >e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 09:39:25 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: Paper 1 - ASEASYAS In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Jun 1993 14:21:00 CDT from But Quattro Pro is very inexpensive for students and much more powerful. On Tue, 22 Jun 1993 14:21:00 CDT Ray Sommers said: >ASEASYAS is also available as shareware from just about any shareware >source. Last year I used version 4.0 since it fit on one 360 K floppy. >The latest version is 5.5 with lots of new features. Generally the files >are compatable with Lotus 123 and Quatro (&Quatro Pro). > >Quatro Pro is available to our students on our network but since many >have their own computers at home they appreciate their own copy of >ASEASYAS. ASEASYAS is also available to them via our library's >CDROM with the PCSIG collection of shareware (over 2000 disks of >stuff). > > |==================================================================| > | | | Ray Sommers, Chem Dept. +----+----+ | > | | | U of Wis @ Stevens Point | | | | > | / \ Stevens Point WI 54481 /^\ | /^\ | > | / UWSP \ rsommers@spu1.uwsp.edu (___) | (___) | > | (__________) rsommers@uwspmail.uwsp.edu /^\ | > |==================================================================| Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 09:41:36 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Gooey Computing > Jack Martin wrote: >> For the rodentphobes, any decent program has keyboard alternatives to >> manipulation of rodents, so rodophobia is no excuse not to make use of a >> GUI with WYSISYG capabilities. >> >His comment about fear for mice prompts a question: Do faculty not like >the Mac/Windows mouse and menus approach simply because they did not >grow up playing video games? When teaching a workshop, I found that >most faculty had a heck of a time manipulating the mouse, a problem >I have never seen the average student have. > >If my hypothesis is correct, than faculty who scoff at GUI and mice, are >holding their students back from interacting with computers at the >level that they are most comfortable. I would hate that some in our >time would complain about the video revolution the way some elder Greeks >no doubt complained about writing. "Kids today don't know how to memorize >20,000 lines of the Iliad, all they do is read all day!" > In response to John Pojman with whom I'm in full agreement, I have a possible cure for rodentophilia. My wife a professor of fine arts, found the Mac impossible with a mouse, but as soon as she saw a trackball on a Mac portable she was convinced, so her own Mac now has a trackball instead of a mouse. Her difficulty was the orietation of themouse when holding it, not a problem with a trackball. Jack M. Miller, jmiller@spartan.ac.brocku.ca Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 10:24:29 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Computers, and their Use in Chemistry Education Hugh Cartwright writes:. > > However, I am concerned about the possibility that we might overemphasize >th > e > importance of computing. When we graduate chemists from our universities, > their expertise must first and foremost be in chemistry. I am therefore > a little concerned at comments like the following > from Ted Labuza > The list that follows lists just about everything that I do so it really hit the nail on the head, BUT, it may be too much to expect that level of computer literacy from an undergraduate, but NOT from a PhD graduate. Having just hired a new faculty member this year in organic chemistry, he is doing these things BUT many of my faculty colleagues are not and do not see the need. In that I detect some of the resistance in the discussion -- from traditionally minded chemists. We can't teach all chemistry. Almost everything I teach wasn't invented when I was a student, and certainly in my research I was taught nothing aof what I am doing in mass spectrometry and nmr of organometallics. > > > This is quite a shopping list. As a computational chemist, I would > be delighted if my students knew this much, but NOT if that knowledge were > gained at the expense of a proper understanding of chemistry. > There is only a limited amount of time available in the university > year, and we need a balance between computing (which, surely, is a tool, > not an end in itself) and science, which computers can help us to learn > and understand. > And perhaps these courses should replace some of the traditional math or physics courses. My classical elec and mag. has done me no good as a chemist, but my electronics course was a wonderful preparation. Three courses in calculus were a waste of time. If I have to integrate something I do it digitally or analytically via Maple or Mathematica. > Some might argue that chemistry now consists of four branches: > organic, inorganic, physical and computational, and that the > increasing emphasis on computers in chemistry merely reflects > the changing nature of chemistry. We must be careful that, in our > desire to make full use of computers, we do not lose the balance > in our courses, diluting the chemistry content to a level at which > we may produce students who are computer-literate, but scientifically > second-rate. > On should not forget the bailing wire, black wax and string origins of experimental chemistry. The computer today is an integral part of the experiment and if you are to do original research you must be as adept at modifiying the computer, its interface and or its software as in the old days of drilling holes in vacuum systems etc. No research equipment is truely being used to its full potential if you've not modified it to improve things, and that includes the computer end of it. Its not just the "computations" chemist that needs to know about computers, perhaps they need the least -- just give them a computer language or Gaussian and access to a porwerful remote machine and they're off. Its more complicated if I want my emperimental data delivered from spectrometers run by Sun and SGI UNIX boxes, proprietary computers such as Brucker's Aspect 3000, PCs and old CPM machines, molecular modeling results, all to my office Mac to put into the papers I'm writing. I can do it all now, but it isn't clean and easy. That's what I'm trying to do for the whole department so both Mac and PC users can get all their data in one place to use it, process it, feed it into major computational or database packages etc. That's not computational chemistry. That is good old fashioned experimental chemistry with life made a lot easier. Jack Martin Miller jmiller@spartan.ac.brocku.ca Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 08:33:52 PDT From: David Green Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know In-Reply-To: ; from "Jim Holler" at Jun 23, 93 9:33 am I am not a strict proponent of learning a programming language by every chemistry major. However, there is value in learning *a* programming language that IMHO goes beyond just the mechanics of programming. Indeed, there are many software packages that will do many of the things students want(need) to do to solve a problem. But what about a problems that need one-time solutions that don't really lend themselves to MathCad, spread- sheets, etc? There are some like that. One (arguably useful) aspect of programming for chemists is learning to work in a highly structured environment that is somewhat unforgiving. We and our students work in the laboratory where structure is lowered for more abstract thinking... i.e. When I mix A and B I get ???? then I can either filter or .... Certainly programs are coded for IF-THEN choices but it is difficult to achieve that "fuzzy" logic in the software. In learning to write even rudimentary code, students have to think about occurrances which may make the program NOT work - divide by zero, endless or useless loops,etc. I have found that those who can program, and not even good at that, often think differently in the laboratory. I have also found the opposite as well. Anyway, the value of programming as a way of thinking (chemistry aside) I don't think should be underestimated. David Green Natural Science Division Pepperdine University Malibu CA dgreen@pepvax.bitnet dgreen@pepvax.pepperdine.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 08:35:18 PDT From: David Green Subject: Re: Paper 1 - ASEASYAS In-Reply-To: ; from "Jim Holler" at Jun 23, 93 9:39 am With academic discount and promotionals I got my first copy for QPro 4 Windows for $70 and my second copy for, I think, $89. > > But Quattro Pro is very inexpensive for students and much more powerful. > > On Tue, 22 Jun 1993 14:21:00 CDT Ray Sommers said: > >ASEASYAS is also available as shareware from just about any shareware > >source. Last year I used version 4.0 since it fit on one 360 K floppy. > >The latest version is 5.5 with lots of new features. Generally the files > >are compatable with Lotus 123 and Quatro (&Quatro Pro). > > > >Quatro Pro is available to our students on our network but since many > >have their own computers at home they appreciate their own copy of > >ASEASYAS. ASEASYAS is also available to them via our library's > >CDROM with the PCSIG collection of shareware (over 2000 disks of > >stuff). > > > > |==================================================================| > > | | | Ray Sommers, Chem Dept. +----+----+ | > > | | | U of Wis @ Stevens Point | | | | > > | / \ Stevens Point WI 54481 /^\ | /^\ | > > | / UWSP \ rsommers@spu1.uwsp.edu (___) | (___) | > > | (__________) rsommers@uwspmail.uwsp.edu /^\ | > > |==================================================================| > > Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 > Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 > University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU > Lexington, KY 40506 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 14:13:23 -0400 From: Mary Swift Subject: Programming I agree that being able to program causes one to begin to think in a different way ...that one now begins to try to consider many alternative results and plan for each possibility. In addition the top down approach gives a better idea how to frame questions and go about answering them. I think the ability to write efficient macros in spreadsheets should be enhanced if one has some programming experience. At least you have some idea why things might not (or did not) work out as planned!!! I recently purchased "QBASIC Primer Plus" by D.R. Mackenroth, a Waite Group book. While I have not had much time to spend with it yet it looks good for a beginning student. I have used another Waite Group book "C by example" to learn C myself and I found it to be quite good. Mary L. Swift ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 14:04:00 EDT From: Don Rosenthal Subject: CHEMCONF Schedule Two days have been allocated to the discussion of each paper at this Conference. At 7:09 AM this morning Tom O'Haver announced the END of the discussion period for Paper 1 andthe BEGINNING of the discussion period for PAPER 2. It was expected that the author and participants would begin by responding to SHORT QUESTIONS and regular discussion would begin. ANY ADDITIONAL DISCUSSION OF PAPER 1 SHOULD BE RESERVED FOR THE GENERAL DISCUSSION PERIOD. (SEE THE SCHEDULE) DOES ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT PAPER 2 - AUTHOR AND PARTICIPANTS WHERE ARE YOU? Donald Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 13:54:55 +22306404 From: "Dr. John A. Pojman" Subject: Paper 2 We have used AppleTalk and ETherTalk with our Macs, both in my lab and in our department cluster. The only advantage most students find with the Appletalk configuation (4 Mac LC) is that they can all print on the same laser printer in the background. In our lab, with about 6 undergraduates and 5 graduate students, the conversion to Ethernet was amazingly simple. The students find it easy to transfer large image files from video digitization, which would not fit on a floppy disk. I am interested in know what other use can we make of a network? The author describes networking, but doesn't show the clear advantage? Legal question: Can many students work off one copy of a program on a server? -- John A. Pojman, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry (601) 266-5035 FAX: (601) 266-5829 INTERNET: pojman@whale.st.usm.edu or: pojman@wave.st.usm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 14:48:40 CDT From: "Harmon B. Abrahamson" Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Paper 2 - Networks In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 23 Jun 1993 14:04:00 EDT from I think that Prof. Jim Hood presents some useful information and reaches reasonable conclusions for those installing a network where none has previously existed. Our experience at the Univ. of North Dakota Chemistry Dept. has been somewhat different, in that the network has grown incrementally, and now consists of a hybridization of physical media and protocols. We began about 8 years ago with a twisted-pair AppleTalk (LocalTalk) net linking a handful (3-4) Macs (512 and Mac+) and a LaserWriter. As we switched departmental word processing from a stand-alone IBM DisplayWriter, more faculty got Macs on their desks (personal or grants) and were linked into the net. Then we got a grant for a MicroVAX II and linked it with our 300MHz NMR by ethernet. We shortly linked the two nets with a FastPath bridge/router which allowed us to put a central AppleShare server on the MicroVAX, and also allows us to use Macs running a terminal emulator as terminals for the MicroVAX. Wait! There's more! Last fall we opened our new building addition, which has 10-Base-T jacks in every office and lab, which means that people in the new wing are linked by EtherTalk. In addition, two newer MicroVAXes (for crystallography and computational chem) are also on EtherNEt. Now, in addition to the old central file server and print spooler, Macs using System 7 can do Peer-to-peer file sharing. My job this summer includes adding a new computer lab to the net, along with implementaing security and use procedures for the new student Macs (Centris - better than most of us faculty have!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Harmon B. Abrahamson | BITNET: UD108726@NDSUVM1 Department of Chemistry | INTERNET: UD108726@VM1.NoDak.EDU University of North Dakota | PHONE: (701) 777-2641 PO BOX 9024 | FAX: (701) 777-2331 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9024 |************************************ | What's nu? E/h of course! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 22:09:55 -0400 From: Jack Miller Subject: Re: Programming >I agree that being able to program causes one to begin to think in a different >way ...that one now begins to try to consider many alternative results and >plan for each possibility. In addition the top down approach gives a better >idea how to frame questions and go about answering them. > >I think the ability to write efficient macros in spreadsheets should be >enhanced if one has some programming experience. At least you have some >idea why things might not (or did not) work out as planned!!! > >I recently purchased "QBASIC Primer Plus" by D.R. Mackenroth, a Waite Group >book. While I have not had much time to spend with it yet it looks good for >a beginning student. I have used another Waite Group book "C by example" >to learn C myself and I found it to be quite good. > >Mary L. Swift If you do teach computer language programing use real world languages. "C" as horrible as it is for the 21st century, or Fortran for number cruching scientific work. Forget BASIC -- it is dead in real applications. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 22:11:51 -0400 From: Jack Miller Subject: Re: Programming P.S. on programming languages. Symetrical multiprocessing is becoming a part of even the Intel world. Except for transputers using Occam, the two languages which tendto have parallelizing compilers and extensions are C and Fortran. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 22:16:19 -0400 From: Jack Miller Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Schedule Coments re schedule: Since the delay inherent in Listservers when traffic is heavy can be as much as 6 hurs, and given office hours, early afternoon stuff doesn't necessarily get delivered to thenext morning so cut off should logically go to noon on the third dy. I have beenawaiting the author's answers to the short questions before beginning my own discussion. Jack m. Miller, jmiller@spartan.ac.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 22:25:15 -0400 From: Jack Miller Subject: Re: Paper 2 >We have used AppleTalk and ETherTalk with our Macs, both in my lab and >in our department cluster. The only advantage most students find >with the Appletalk configuation (4 Mac LC) is that they can all >print on the same laser printer in the background. In our lab, with >about 6 undergraduates and 5 graduate students, the conversion to >Ethernet was amazingly simple. The students find it easy to >transfer large image files from video digitization, which would not >fit on a floppy disk. Backgrond printing works identically under appletalk or Ethertalk. I don't see why you make the distinction - the only difference is the higher speed of ethertalk. There are multipleways to connect an old apple talk only printer to the ethernet and background spoolingworks in both cases. > >I am interested in know what other use can we make of a network? The author >describes networking, but doesn't show the clear advantage? Sharing one copy of an expensive piece of software, transfering files from laboratory instruments to office machines used in preparation of papers, manuals etc., student submission of assignments, and student receipt of individualized assingnments, moving files between coauthors, between students working togetheron a lab report, controlling use of laser printer to those with printing priveleges so that you don't print everyone'sthesis on your printer, having the need of only a single connection to the University backgbone, internet etc., etc. I could go on and on. > >Legal question: Can many students work off one copy of a program on a >server? >-- You only need mount one copy but legally you must possess "n" copies if "n" students are to work simultaneously. If you use Apple's server software or MacJanet you can set in software thenumber ofsimultaneous users permitted, and can encode the software against copying. A copy will not work offthe network. > >John A. Pojman, Ph.D. >Assistant Professor >Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry >(601) 266-5035 >FAX: (601) 266-5829 >INTERNET: pojman@whale.st.usm.edu >or: pojman@wave.st.usm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 22:29:58 -0400 From: Jack Miller Subject: Re: Paper 2 - Networks Harnom Abrahamsus is correctin talking about the evolution and 10baseT wiring. Even ifFDDI over copper wins over ethernet or fast ethernet, 10baseT will be the copper used. Prof. Hood both in his paper and to me privately argues for thinnet. This just will not work in real existing buildings or in new ones. I have old buildings and am building a new one to house 125 more computers. If FDDI over 10baseT will work for Lawrence Berkely Laboratory it will work for the rest of us despite what salesmen for thinnet technology would have you believe. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 23:09:27 -0400 From: Judith Faye Rubinson Subject: Re: Paper 2 We do not have a network in place at the moment but will probably end up setting our computers up in one soon. We have two MAC's and several PC's. (Yes there are advantages to students' exposure to both environments!) Could anyone give me some advice on the best way to find out how to set up our network? Faye Rubinson, College of Mount St. Joseph, Cincinnati, OH 45233-1670 (RUBINSON@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 23:50:46 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Programming The discussion about students thinking differently after they learn about programing is an example of the development of critical thinking skills in students as they encounter challenging courses. After all it is the student who develops the skills and usually not most effectively through only listening. The must be given greater opportunities to think and think about their own thinking. This is the most important result of a computer course - students think about thinking ie how to get something done and all of the possible alternates. So much of chemistry instruction is predigested information. How do we get students to think more critically - this goes beyond problem solving which is considered by some to be a lower level skill - one that can be done by students operating at Perry level 2. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 06:22:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 2 - Networks In-Reply-To: <9306240309.AA07301@umd5.umd.edu> I think there is some confusion of terminology here. AppleTalk is not the same as LocalTalk. AppleTalk is a LAN protocol stack; LocalTalk is the low-speed twisted pair LAN wiring system that Macs have built-in. You can run Appletalk over Localtalk or over Ethernet - the latter of course being faster. All the Mac labs on our campus use Ethernet rather than LocalTalk, and I notice that Mac Quadra models have built-in Ethernet ports. Handy. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 06:34:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 2 In-Reply-To: <9306240258.AA06468@umd5.umd.edu> Another advantage of running applications off a file server is that it is much easier to upgrade software to new versions and to change global settings. In a large installation with dozens of users running dozens of programs, upgrading would be time consuming if every machine had a separate copy on its own hard disk. > Legal question:.... We use a utility called KeyServer that provides the software checkout counting and user notification required for proper application distribution and also keeps a record of how often and when each software program is used. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 07:22:21 EDT From: Sherman Henzel Subject: Computer Languages Jack Miller writes, "Forget BASIC it is Dead." Like Mark Twain reports of BASIC's demise are gorssly exaggerated." I am currently at the U of R working on a summer research project that involves user LASER spectroscopy to study the kinetics of reactions that occur in the ps range. The program that takes in data and that controls aperatures and a moving mirror is written in QuickBasic. For the next eight weeks at least I can not forget BASIC. I hope it doesn't die while it is controling the instrument. Also several years ago I had the oppotunity to tour one of the labs at Kodak. The labs were involved in running very large distillation columns. The language used in that control was BASIC. ___________________________________________________________ | Sherman Henzel Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5124 | | Internet: shenzel@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 09:26:38 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 2 - Networks >I think there is some confusion of terminology here. >AppleTalk is not the same as LocalTalk. AppleTalk is a LAN >protocol stack; LocalTalk is the low-speed twisted pair >LAN wiring system that Macs have built-in. Sorry if I contributed to the confusion -- us old timers in the Mac world (128k !!!) go back to the time when Apple used the same Appletalk term for both. You can >run Appletalk over Localtalk or over Ethernet - the latter >of course being faster. All the Mac labs on our campus >use Ethernet rather than LocalTalk, We have gradually converted our labs, and our new Math and COSC building (125 machines) will be all ethernet except for one lab that we hav't got the funds this year to buy new machines for, and its not worth getting ethernet cards for old SE's to be abandoned within a year. The network performance in a class of 20-30 is remarkably improved, though it is surprising the throughput a Local talk net can handle including the departmental printer traffic and my perusals of the Internet world with large FTP fetches. and I notice that >Mac Quadra models have built-in Ethernet ports. Handy. All the new high end Macs are supposed to have the built in port. Unfortunately with three ethernet standards you still have to buy either a 10baseT or thinnet tranceiver. Few people opperate in a thicknet environment. Some of the UNIX boxes now come with both 10baseT and thicknet built in, a clear indication of the impending demise of thinnet. Jack M. Miller > >Tom O'Haver >U. of Maryland Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 09:30:10 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 2 >Another advantage of running applications off a file server >is that it is much easier to upgrade software to new versions >and to change global settings. In a large installation >with dozens of users running dozens of programs, upgrading >would be time consuming if every machine had a separate copy on >its own hard disk. > There are also advantages to booting from the server with boot roms on the ethernet card. That way the hackers don't muck up the system (whether DOS or Mac) and I challenge anyone to defeat the good hackers. (This may be less a problem for chemists, but also being chair of computer science we have greater problems in this area.) Yes you can defeat them, but you disable your system to the extent that not all software packages will run. There is also software available that will reload a fresh copy of the system nightly after the labs close to all machines on a net, to keep a relatively clean systme going. >> Legal question:.... > >We use a utility called KeyServer that provides the software >checkout counting and user notification required for proper >application distribution and also keeps a record of how often >and when each software program is used. > >Tom O'Haver >U. of Maryland Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 10:22:00 CST From: Greg Powell Subject: Re: Paper 2 - Networks Our network situation is similar to that described by Harmon B. Abrahamson ("the network has grown incrementally"), except on a much smaller scale and about two years behind: several Macs with an Appletalk network and access to a VAX through a terminal server. We would like to convert from LocalTalk to Ethernet (EtherTalk?) for up to 10 MacII-series computers. Our campus network gurus are trying to force everyone who converts to Ethernet to purchase PathWorks (for PC-DOS or Mac) as well as their recommended Pathworks-compatible Ethernet card. We are currently using VersaTerm-Pro to interface with the VAX (terminal emulation) and Mac System 7 to share files, etc. Does anyone else out there have experience using PathWorks? Seems I recall that this was created by a joint venture between DEC and Apple a few years ago. What does Pathworks do for you that VersaTerm and the Mac Chooser (and Sys 7 file-sharing) cannot accomplish over Ethernet? Why can't we just buy any 10baseT Ethernet cards and "plug-and-play"? The network wiring is already in place. Thanks to Harmon Abrahamson, Jim Hood, Jack Miller, Tom O'Haver, and John Pojman for the useful advice so far! --------------- Greg Powell - Dept. of Chemistry - Abilene Christian University - Abilene, TX 79699 powell@acuvax.acu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 08:35:14 PDT From: David Green Subject: Re: Computer Languages In-Reply-To: ; from "Sherman Henzel" at Jun 24, 93 7:22 am > > Jack Miller writes, "Forget BASIC it is Dead." > > Like Mark Twain reports of BASIC's demise are gorssly exaggerated." > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > I think everyone agrees that IMSAI Basic is dead. It had a limited instruction set, handled I/O rather clumsily, no graphics, etc and it was a modern language in the 60's. But QuickBasic is truly structured (if you want it to be), has good I/O capabilities to the outside world, graphics (not standard in ANSI C or ANSI Pascal), a quite elaborate instruction set in integer-single-double precision, easy to learn especially if you know another language, and other stuff. I'm not saying it's the best (and it's not particularly fast), but, as many have said, if it gets the job done, it's the right hardware/software/program/language. End of soapbox. David Green Natural Science Division Pepperdine University Malibu CA dgreen@pepvax.bitnet dgreen@pepvax.pepperdine.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 14:35:39 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 2 - Networks >Our network situation is similar to that described by Harmon B. Abrahamson >("the network has grown incrementally"), except on a much smaller scale and >about two years behind: several Macs with an Appletalk network and access to >a VAX through a terminal server. We would like to convert from LocalTalk to >Ethernet (EtherTalk?) for up to 10 MacII-series computers. Our campus network >gurus are trying to force everyone who converts to Ethernet to purchase >PathWorks (for PC-DOS or Mac) as well as their recommended Pathworks-compatible >Ethernet card. We are currently using VersaTerm-Pro to interface with the VAX >(terminal emulation) and Mac System 7 to share files, etc. Does anyone else >out there have experience using PathWorks? Seems I recall that this was >created by a joint venture between DEC and Apple a few years ago. What does >Pathworks do for you that VersaTerm and the Mac Chooser (and Sys 7 >file-sharing) >cannot accomplish over Ethernet? Why can't we just buy any 10baseT Ethernet >cards and "plug-and-play"? The network wiring is already in place. > We looked at Pathworks and it doesn't do anything for you unless you want to use your VAX as a server. Since DEC was so obnoxious with us refusing to sell us a VAX three years ago since we wouldn't go with an all Dec campus (we had to buy the VAX via third party) we use Macs as Mac servers or use areas on the disk of our SGI UNIX boxes. Pathworks was hideously expensive compared to everything else on the market. Avoid it like the plague unless you are in an intgrated DEC environment (I don't envy you if you are) >Thanks to Harmon Abrahamson, Jim Hood, Jack Miller, Tom O'Haver, and >John Pojman for the useful advice so far! > >--------------- >Greg Powell - Dept. of Chemistry - >Abilene Christian University - Abilene, TX 79699 >powell@acuvax.acu.edu Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 14:38:30 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Computer Languages >> >> Jack Miller writes, "Forget BASIC it is Dead." >> >> Like Mark Twain reports of BASIC's demise are gorssly exaggerated." >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> >I think everyone agrees that IMSAI Basic is dead. It had a limited >instruction set, handled I/O rather clumsily, no graphics, etc and it was >a modern language in the 60's. But QuickBasic is truly structured >(if you want it to be), has good I/O capabilities to the outside world, >graphics (not standard in ANSI C or ANSI Pascal), a quite elaborate >instruction set in integer-single-double precision, easy to learn >especially if you know another language, and other stuff. >I'm not saying it's the best (and it's not particularly fast), but, as >many have said, if it gets the job done, it's the right >hardware/software/program/language. > As chair of our computer science department as well as being a chemist, I can tell you that in the real world of employers looking for job skills, nobody (almost -- 1 in 3 years) asks for skills in BASIC of any flavour -- and what they did want was old classic basic). This discussion is about what to teach that will be potentially useful to our students IN THEIR FUTURE WORKING LIVES!!! >End of soapbox. > >David Green >Natural Science Division >Pepperdine University >Malibu CA > >dgreen@pepvax.bitnet >dgreen@pepvax.pepperdine.edu Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 14:39:42 -0500 From: aubrey mcintosh Subject: Re: Computer Languages Jack Martin Miller writes: > As chair of our computer science department as well as being a > chemist, I can tell you that in the real world of employers looking > for job skills, nobody (almost -- 1 in 3 years) asks for skills in > BASIC of any flavour -- and what they did want was old classic > basic). This discussion is about what to teach that will be > potentially useful to our students IN THEIR FUTURE WORKING LIVES!!! I have worked in the N. Wirth family (Algol/Pascal/Modula2/Oberon) for some time, and in my own unique situation, I am quite exuberant about it. What are your experiences with this family? Do you have enough experience to contrast Modula2 or Oberon with ANSI C or C++? I'm not so interested in Pascal, as Prof. Wirth's experience has gone too the new languages, leaving Pascal as a 20 year old snapshot of the art. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 13:12:39 EST From: Tecnologia Quimica e Informacao Subject: mod&sim Hello, I would like to have a help to identify ftp SERVERS in the area of modeling and simulation of chemical processes. Thanks Adalberto Cantalino E-MAIL: tqi@sunrnp.ufba.br ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 15:41:00 PDT From: Jaqueline E Madison Subject: Re: CHEMCONF Schedule I requested papers 1, 2, and 3 a couple of weeks ago. I recently received paper 1, but haven't seen the latter two. Perhaps there are others in the same situation. Jackie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 08:16:34 +0800 From: "\"Gary Williams" Subject: Re: Programming Reading the mail regarding which programming languages are dead or alive has lead me to the conclusion that we just have to accept the many so called standards that we presently have. In some situations BASIC is alive and well over here in Western Australia - especially in primary and lower secondary schools. In upper secondary and non-computer science departments at this University (UWA) a lot of people use ThinkC and ThinkPascal, and if they are involved in multimedia development Hypertext. Yes - the computer science department uses the far more recent languages, and there is a tendency for one group to consider every other group as behind the times or not using a 'real' language. But we need to accept that it really is a case of horses for courses and accept that all languages are ideal to achieve certain objectives. Considering this is actually a chemical education conference - we are spending a fair amount of time (including myself) thinking about a side-issue to our main subject?? Is this really chemistry research and education? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 23:07:38 -0500 From: Barry Rowe Subject: Re: Programming > In some situations BASIC is alive and well over here >in Western Australia - especially in primary and lower secondary schools. In >upper secondary and non-computer science departments at this University (UWA) >a lot of people use ThinkC and ThinkPascal, and if they are involved in >multimedia development Hypertext. BASIC is wonderful for kids and programming for fun, but as the complexity of the toolboxes available to program have increased, BASIC has been left behind. Everyone seems to be going to C, even the Pascal-based Macintosh. However, as machines increase in complexity and speed, I think we will find an increasing use of higher level languages, such as the upcoming Dylan for the Power PC. In essence, the programming languages are coming closer to database, hypertext and word processing 'languages' -- english-like script. They all seem to be object oriented also. I think the University of Illinois may have the best idea. They wrote a language and it is used in the introductory classes. It is lisp-like and oriented towards teaching programming. Shades of Pascal! I prefer Pascal for my use, and I use HyperTalk because I teach HyperCard in school. It is particularly elegant, but HyperCard itself is rather limited. HyperStudio has been released by Roger Wagner Publishing for the Macintosh (ported from the Apple IIGS), and its scripting language is Logo! That is strange, I think. >Considering this is actually a chemical education conference - we are spending >a fair amount of time (including myself) thinking about a side-issue to our >main subject?? Is this really chemistry research and education? Be careful!! I said this about the platform argument, and got soundly hooted down! barry [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] Barry E. Rowe browe@ncsa.uiuc.edu NCSA ChemViz group 240 CAB, 152 E. Springfield Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 ANY PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF PHYSICS OBVIOUSLY INVOLVES MATTER, AND IS THEREFORE CHEMISTRY. [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 00:57:45 EDT From: "John P. Ranck" Subject: Paper 3 - Answers to Short Questions PAPER 3 - ANSWERS TO SHORT QUESTIONS From: John P. Ranck Elizabethtown College Elizabethtown, PA 17022 RANCK@VAX.ETOWN.EDU Date: June 25, 1993 ======================================================================= From: Carolyn S. Judd Q: Yes! Better visualization will surely lead to increased understanding. Can you give an estimate of the time needed to produce your movies? A: As in most things, it takes longer the first time. From beginning to end, the entire production of these animations required 3 - 4 days (a long weekend). The tasks were: 1) Determine a short enough dynamics step time that molecular vibrations would be apparent and yet long enough that the entire course of the reaction would run in 100 or fewer frames. The step time was 0.6 femtoseconds and frames were captured every 2 steps. 2) Optimize the geometry of a transition state complex with O---C---Cl distances "frozen" at reasonable distances, use this as a starting point for a dynamics run and let the transition state complex "come apart" to form the "reactants". Then reverse all velocity vectors and add a slight extra component along the reaction coordinate. This is the starting point for the reaction run. With the slight extra velocity component along the reaction coordinate, the fragments (reactants) recombined and went "over the hill" to form the products. All this took some fiddling to get starting conditions just right. 3) Write a script to do this automatically, stopping every two dynamics steps to calculate, display, and capture the molecular orbitals. I wrote the script as a macro in Microsoft Word (strange use of a word processor) because the macro language is Word Basic which has control structures (loops, logical if's, etc.) which are missing in HyperChem's scripting language. (HyperChem scripts are basically sequences of menu commands.) I had never used Word before and the peculiarities of its macros took some learning -- especially to generate a systematic file name for each frame and to open and close files, etc. The data (frame) collection run, after all the preps and false starts took somewhere between 2 and 4 hours. 4) Becauuse HyperChem assigns the phase (and color) of the orbital lobes arbitrarily, the colors were not consistent from frame to frame. To maintain continuity of color in the animation, it was necessary to reverse the colors in half the frames. Time: 1 to 2 hours per animation after learning the idiosyncrasies of a color editor (HiJaak for Windows). 5) Assemble 100 frames into a .FLC file (Using Autodesk Animator Pro with which I was already somewhat familiar). Time: about 30 minutes per animation. ========================================================================== From: Donald Rosenthal Q: How do you use the animation files - do you use them as demonstrations in lectures or do students have access to them outside class? A: I constructed these animations as a feasibility test toward constructing interactive "textbooks." My desire is to have a "text" in which: 1) chemical reactions are represented by dynamic animations instead of static reactant --> product representations; 2) mathematical equations and graphs are active and allow variations in parameters and choice of variables to plot; AND the student has available immediately beside the text (with cut and paste options) 1) a Chemistry Workspace (e.g., HyperChem) in which it is possible to change the nucleophile, add side groups to provide "steric hindrance," change the plane for which the orbitals are displayed, change temperature, initial velocities, etc.; 2) a Mathematics Workspace (e.g., MathCAD) in which the mathematical relations presented may be similarly explored AND have all this wrapped in a hypertext system in which suggestions for exploration may be provided if needed. ----------------------- Q: How do students react to these animations? What sort of student evaluations have these materials received? A: I have shared these animations with only one small class of physical chemistry students. They claimed that they will never see chemical reactions the same way again. The sample is too small to be meaningful and I set them up. ========================================================================= From: Charlie Abrams Q: Do you have a graph of the potential energy vs. frame number? Even better would be an energy surface with O-C and C-Br distances as the X and Y axis respectively. A: Such a map showing the trajectory on a potential energy surface could, of course, be constructed from data generated by HyperChem. It depends on what one is trying to exhibit. My attempt here was to develop an revealing dynamic alternative to the static presentations of an elementary reaction type. HOMO and LUMO orbital energy profiles vs. reaction coordinate (correlation diagrams?) would also be useful in another context. ------------------ Q: Can you provide more information on exactly what parameters were used for the calculation? (ie. what level of sophistication, etc.) A: HyperChem uses molecular mechanics or quantum mechanics to compute a potential energy surface and then determines the motion of this potential energy surface using classical mechanics. I used the AM1 semi-empirical methods to calculate the energies and the orbitals. ------------------- Q: How much faith do you have in these calculations? Is it safe to assume that the *qualitative* behavior is independent of the level of sophistication? A: I am trying to convey qualitative information (molecules vibrate during the course of a reaction; the reactants do not combine smoothly through the activated complex and come apart directly as products; the electron orbitals are really quite spread out over reactants and products and are dynamically changing in complex ways during the reaction) with some degree of accuracy in the quantitative details. I consider these illustrative rather than highly accurate. ---------------------- Q: Can you generate shaded *surfaces* with HyperChem? Was this avoided because of computational expense, or memory expense, or both? (By surface I mean CPK type image). A: Shaded (CPK) surfaces are a HyperChem option (actually, they are quite "pretty") and orbitals can be superimposed over the atomic rendering, whatever it be. I chose the dot surfaces (1) so that the orbital contours did not get lost in a wash of color and (2) shaded surfaces give a greater sense of looking at the molecule from the outside. I wanted to emphasize the electron "distribution" so I used contour maps (necessarily in a plane) instead of orbital boundary surfaces which show only one constant contour surface without any information about gradient. The dot surfaces provide some representation of the atomic "size" (van der Waals radii) without being as obtrusive as I thought the shaded CPK surfaces would be. ------------------------ Q: I've had trouble getting the display to behave properly on one monitor. The program did not give me the 640x480 driver option when I used a DEC "PC7XV" monitor (with a DEC 433dxLP computer), and would only display 'oversized bits'. Are other drivers available? A: Autodesk *.FLC files also display quite nicely (but a bit more slowly) using Microsoft Windows Media Player (mplayer.exe). On some systems (using Media Player) the background washes with strange colors during the first playing of the animation, but behaves correctly during the second and subsequent runs. I think this is due to some slight frame errors introduced when I did the color editing. =========================================================================== From: Andy Tanton Q: I have seen a movie representation of SN2 mechanism before (prepared by Bruce Branchaud of U. Oregon) which was very similar to yours, and may have also been developed on HyperChem, although I don't remember. In addition to representing the mechanism graphically, Branchaud's movie also gave potential energy values for each frame (computed by the program). He used this not only to discuss the nature of the high-energy SN2 transition state, but also to hint that the gas-phase SN2 reaction coordinate has a very peculiar energy profile. Can you get your program to calculate and display potential energies? A: See answer to Charlie Abrams question (above). -------------------- Q: If so, is there any way for the program to estimate solvent effects on the species, so as to demonstrate the difference between solution and gas-phase SN2? A: HyperChem lets you place a molecular system in a periodic box of water molecules to simulate behavior in aqueous solution. This is useful for simulating conditions for biological systems. After creating this aqueous system, it should be possible to edit the system to substitute other solvent molecules, though I have not tried this. =========================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 10:26:57 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Programming k. > >>Considering this is actually a chemical education conference - we are spending >>a fair amount of time (including myself) thinking about a side-issue to our >>main subject?? Is this really chemistry research and education? > Of course it is Chemiscal Education. How and with what do we equip chemists to meet the rapidly changing job needs. In terms of simple pedagogy most of what I teach wasn't discovered when AI was a student. We are trying to find out how to teach and what to teach chemists in this time of exponential growth of technology. When it comes to computers, anything that is commercially available is obsolete, but its what we have to use, whether networking discussed in paper two or other questions raised in paper one. Using twenty year old technolgy may illustrate a pedagogical point in elementary school, but is it what we want chemists who will be the teachers, researchers and working chemists of the future to know? >Be careful!! I said this about the platform argument, and got soundly >hooted down! > Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 13:03:34 -0700 From: Loren Carter Subject: local talk to ethernet Does anyone out there know of software that will allow a DOS machine to access a Caman GatorBox over a local talk network? We have several Macs and a couple of DOS machines connected to a laserprinter using a local talk network. The Macs are connected to ethernet using a gaterbox that is connected to the local talk network, but the DOS machines can't seem to find the gatorbox and so far I have not been able to connect them to ethernet from the local talk network. Loren Carter Chemistry Department Boise State University Boise, Idaho ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 15:11:24 -0400 From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster Animation is great. If only we could get a standard that would be truely protable. Whether QuickTime movies now available in both PC and Mac format provide this I don't know. Certainly interplatform operability is a problem, and even between diferent machines on the same platform. Jack M. Miller Brock University: jmiller@spartan.ac.brocku.ca Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 15:13:03 EDT From: "C. H. Lochmuller" Subject: Re: local talk to ethernet In-Reply-To: <9306251905.AA13068@umd5.umd.edu>; from "Loren Carter" at Jun 25, 93 1:03 pm There were rumors of appletalk/easytalk/... cards about 8 months ago. outfits name began with D but the fact is that it was vaporware " .. we hope to get ...by ....". Dakom? I would be intersted in finding a way myself. CHL ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1993 17:16:56 +0800 From: "\"Gary Williams" Subject: Questions Paper 3 Are there any hypertext/hypermedia characteristics inherent in the package called 'HyperChem'? That is can you develop movies that the student had a degreeof control over - for example the speed of the movie, the ability to replay the movie and pause at particular frames? To what extent is HyperChem compatible with Hypercard? Can Hypercard call HyperChem movies or do the movies have to be stored in a Quicktime format. I know that some packages, e.g. Studio1, have quite an extensive library of Hypercard compatible commands. I have used these to provide 1st year uni students with a degree of control over the movie. Is this the case with HyperChem? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1993 17:22:58 +0800 From: "\"Gary Williams" Subject: Paper 3 The discussion regarding the use of wedges and dotted lines to assist in conveying 3-D characterisitcs to 2-D representations reminded of a small piece of software I looked at a few years back. It involved this character called Dr Smedley and included simulated rotation around a bond, using MacroMind director. Unfortunately I only had access to a demo-version and I remeber that it was quite a nice bit of graphics. Does anyone have any information as to whether the software featuring Dr Smedley was developed further and whether packages are available. The demo version I saw involved SN2 reactions. TNX 1 x 10^6, Gary W ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1993 14:35:45 -0500 From: James Barrett Aldridge Subject: Re: What Undergraduates need to Know In-Reply-To: <9306221812.AA24482@umd5.umd.edu> LaTex today? Surely not. A good Mac or Win PC with Word and its associated equation editor is light years ahead. Good grief. J. Aldridge ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 16:37:11 EDT From: Ying Wang Subject: signing off from the conference Please sign me off. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1993 11:43:13 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: local talk to ethernet >Does anyone out there know of software that will allow a DOS machine to access >a >Caman GatorBox over a local talk network? > We do it all the time. No software is needed unless your Gator Box is miss-set. I assume you're using a Farallon card in your PC -- it should see all other Mac zones just like a Mac -- you shouldn't know the Gator Box is there. For general network access to Non-MAC environments, if the PC has TCP/IP drivers it should tunnel through the Gator Box to the Internet world, the UNIX boxes on ethernet etc. without an trouble. D. Bockus, my administrative assistant (dbockus@spartan.ac.Brocku.ca) apparently does this all the time without problem, or so my Network Administrator informs me. >We have several Macs and a couple of DOS machines connected to a laserprinter >using a local talk network. The Macs are connected to ethernet using a >gaterbox >that is connected to the local talk network, but the DOS machines can't seem to >find the gatorbox and so far I have not been able to connect them to ethernet >from the local talk network. If you mean connect to ethernet devices, not ethertalk, then you need TCP/IP on your PC, just as you do on your Macs. > > >Loren Carter >Chemistry Department >Boise State University >Boise, Idaho Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1993 11:53:30 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: local talk to ethernet Correstion to my earlier response. Yes we routinely go through the Gator box to other Appletalk zones over the ethernet backbone, but we've not tried to get through to ethernet itself with a TCP/IP packet driver which will probably have to be modified from standard PC TCP/IP. Sorry for the confusion. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1993 11:55:41 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: local talk to ethernet Have you checked with the PC card vendor for the packet drivers or with the Gator Box people? Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry Chair, Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1993 13:14:10 EDT From: "John P. Ranck" Subject: Paper 3 Q & A From: Gary Williams Q: Are there any hypertext/hypermedia characteristics inherent in the package called 'HyperChem'? That is can you develop movies that the student had a degreeof control over - for example the speed of the movie, the ability to replay the movie and pause at particular frames? A: HyperChem has the ability to save atomic coordinates and velicities in a snapshot file during a dynamics run. The snapshot file can subsequently be played back as a movie without recalculating each frame. The user can specify the starting and stopping frame in the sequence and can interrupt the playback at any time. Because the "frames" are saved as coordinate and velocity data, the rotation and scaling options may be applied to the playback, i.e., the playback can be run with the user observing from different angles. Saying it another way, the snapshots are not screen images but are molecular data. ------------------------------ Q: To what extent is HyperChem compatible with Hypercard? Can Hypercard call HyperChem movies or do the movies have to be stored in a Quicktime format. I know that some packages, e.g. Studio1, have quite an extensive library of Hypercard compatible commands. I have used these to provide 1st year uni students with a degree of control over the movie. Is this the case with HyperChem? A: HyperChem is available for DOS/Windows and for Silicon Graphics workstation. Hypercard is a hypertexting system for the Macintosh. There is no inherent compatability. However, screen IMAGES (not snapshots of atomic coordinates) from HyperChem can be saved as bitmat (*.BMP) and/or windows graphics metafiles (*.WMF). There are numerous graphic image conversion programs which convert such images to other formats, e.g., CompuServe Graphics Image Format (*.GIF). I used these *.GIF images to assemble the Autodesk *.FLC format movie files. I believe Macintosh quicktime movies can also be assembled from *.GIF images. The movies, once created and stored can be called from a hypertext system such as Hypercard for the Macintosh or Toolbook or Guide for DOS/Windows systems. These movies, however, will not be "interactive" in the sense that the student can rotate, etc. as they are sequences of screen images and are not constructed on the fly from atomic coordinates as are the playbacks of snapshot files from within HyperChem. John P. Ranck Internet: ranck@vax.etown.edu Department of Chemistry Voice: 717-361-1315 Elizabethtown College FAX: 717-361-1207 Elizabethtown, PA 17022-2298 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 11:19:08 -0400 From: William Harwood Subject: Paper4 Following are the questions and our responses for paper #4: 1. From Carloyn S. Judd, Central College, Houston Community College System (cjudd@tenet.edu) >I love The World of Chemistry videos! My students love them also. >Could you give more detail about the student projects involving >their own video productions. Was there an exact assignment? How >long were the videos. Did the institution furnish the equipment? >How did the class presentation go? Were there more student >questions following a student presentation than the presentations >from The World of Chemistry? Response: The assignment for the class at U of Maryland was open-ended. Students were to provide a creative project linking chemistry to a topic of their own interest. I did not suggest or expect video projects, in part because no support was provided to produce these. Nevertheless, it is apparent that some American students are quite proficient in the use of video technology. The video projects typically ran for 15 minutes. As I stated, some were poorly put together. This may be do to the lack of good editing facilities available to that student. The best video project, regarding drug use and abuse, was quite proficient. This student had access to some home video editing equipment. More importantly, however, the student had an excellent directorial sense. She clearly thought about when to present certain material and in what order. The students who used World of Chemistry and other videos to augment a class discussion found the class to be somewhat responsive. The limited success of discussion in class seemed to be related to the ability of the student to encourage and lead a discussion. Some students, lacking this skill, inadvertently stifled participation by the class. 2. From Donald Rosenthal, Dept. of Chemistry Clarkson University, Postdam, NY (Rosen1@clvm.bitnet) >Six references are listed at the end of your paper. The >videotapes are cited. What about the other references? Were any >of these used in the courses you discussed? Was the laboratory >manual used? What sort of experiments are in the laboratory >manual? Response: The American program was lecture only because too few students expressed an interest in a laboratory portion for the course. It was intended that students would have labs such as making soap and making oil of wintergreen. We did have a short in-class lab to make silly putty (during our discussion on polymers). In addition, there were a lot of demonstrations. Many of these are "classic" Shakhashiri demos such as the use of purple cabbage as an acid-base indicator. Several books are used by our department as sources of demonstrations. The Israeli version used some of the "World of Chemistry Laboratory Manual" labs. 3. From Tom O'Haver, UMCP, (Thomas_C_OHAVER@umail.umd.edu) > 1. Specifically what societal, economic, and political >differences between Israeli and American chemistry students have >a bearing on the video-based course experiment? > 2. Do you find important differences between the television >viewing habits of Israeli and American students? > 3. Are there differences between the extent to which Israeli >and American students are exposed to video production technology >at the secondary level? Response: Tom, you hit the nail on the head! American students are generally more technologically wealthy than their Israeli counterparts. Many homes in America have camcorders and videotape machines, often with at least limited editing capability. American and Israeli students watch a great deal of television, though Americans have a much larger number of viewing hours than do typical Israeli students. Many of these programs, including the very popular MTV, are quite sophisticated in the mode of video expression. Also popular are the "how did they make that film" shows. These describe how video technology is used in the film industry and provide some general information for students. Young American students are, in general, fairly sophisticated critics of film production elements. The challenge, of course, is to encourage students to focus on the content. American students may be more easily engaged thatn Israeli students. This is because the World of Chemistry videos are catered to and tailored for the needs of young Americans. They also portray "American style" daily lives, housing, concerns and societal debates. To some extent, student in other contries, including Israel, have an avid interest in things American. This interest porvides some help in bridging the cultural gap inherent in the World of Chemistry video programs. Exposure to film and video in secondary schools is still widely limited to passive viewing of shows. Interactive video use in the classroom or use of multimedia (videos and computers) is just beginning in America and Israel. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 11:39:19 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper3 late reply I'm sorry that this is late but I misread my calendar. Please don't reply to the Server. Save it for later or send to me directly and I will summarize. The approach given here is one that addresses a fundamental problem in chemical education. During lectures students are given the "facts" , "just the facts" for the most part. After all they must learn them somewhere. Reactions are written on the board, some questions are asked, and some responses obtained. But, just how much do most of the students really understand? A chemical reaction has many levels of understanding associated with it as the author points out. Faculty and other professionals penetrate into various levels as needed for a discussion. Students usually do not have this multi-level multi-faceted appreciation of a reaction mechanism. Nevertheless we talk to them in class as if they did especially if a facet of interpretation has been introduced once or even twice before. Then a dilemma develops. This dilema is due to our modes of learning. Students often play into our model of them by often saying yes when we say, "do you understand?" We in turn are surprised when they do poorly on an exam that shows clearly that they do not understand. There may be several reasons why they say yes that they understand even when they don't. Not knowing enough to even ask a question might be one of them and frustration at not being able to understand may be another. There are many others that you can come up with, some showing the student in a favorable light and some showing him/her in an unfavorable light. I choose to think that since the student is in college he/she has some interest in learning and honest motives causes for success and/or failure are beyond this discussion. One way to help students learn better is with animations like the ones included in this paper. Various levels of understanding are displayed and can be redispalyed over and over and at various speeds and looked at and discussed with peers and teachers. It opens new doors of understanding. Group discussion situations can also be used effectively to accomplish this when animations are not available. In groups students can learn effectively to articulate their nascent questions and gain confidence in talking about science. Another effective strategy is for the teacher to use assessment techniques to assess learning not to assign a grade. Teaching under the old paradigm of lectures measures student understanding only at exam time when it is too late to correct misconceptions. By using brief well designed assessments to diagnose student understanding maybe many misconceptions can be nipped in the bud. But you may claim that this will take too much time away from that important goal of lecture, the rapid transfer of information. My reply is that you may be transferring information but the receiver is not turned on when comprehension and understanding on the part of the student is absent. In closing I add that we cannot give students everything that they need for their next career step. What we can give them is a set of skills with which they can get what they need on their own and when they need it. Isn't that what professional chemists do? Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 Roszieli@UBVMS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 09:08:08 -0700 From: Stephen Lower Subject: Peper 4 discussion In discussing the outcomes of these courses, the authors emphasize the students' "increase in felt knowledge", but nothing is said about the results of objective tests of what the students have learned in terms of the (unstated) goals of the course, which presumably extend beyond making students feel good about Chemistry. Perhaps if I were familiar with the "World of Chemistry" materials I would have a more clear idea of what these goals might be, but I think that some discussion of this in the paper might have been helpful. I suspect that the "cultural differences" alluded to in the paper are just as great between different groups within the two countries as between the countries themselves. Educational institutions have traditionally forced the student to conform to the learning styles (and the "culture", if you like) that developed amongst the small elite that sought education in the last century, and have not made much of an effort to adapt to the cultural diversity that exists amongst the populations that many of them are supposed to serve. Studies of this kind tend to be met with something between dismissal and apathy on the part of the academic establishment, so I am happy to see this one here. ---------- Steve Lower - Vancouver, Canada Dept of Chemistry - Simon Fraser University - Burnaby BC V5A 1S6 lower@sfu.ca 604-291-3353 FAX: 604-291-3765 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 15:36:38 -0400 From: William Harwood Subject: paper 4 response Steve Lower comments that we could have provided some detail regarding mastery of chemical knowledge by the students in the courses. Our reason for not including this information was the lack of a specific control group. However, the syllabus of this course is typical of many non-science major courses in introductory chemistry. Students were expected to perform at different cognitive levels: knowledge, comprehension, application, synthesis and analysis. They had quizzes, exams and (for many) a final exam in both countries. The achievements of the students by these measures were not significantly different from other classes of similar type that the instructors have taught previously. Still, we have been struck by the enthusiasm and improvements in attitudes toward the study of chemistry that these students have demonstrated. Moreover, a major goal of these courses, and the World of Chemistry video programs, is to demonstrate that chemistry is in us and around us. Students in America and Israel got this message easily, clearly, and enjoyably. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 16:38:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES PAPER 4 DISCUSSION ON USE OF VIDEOS TO: AUTHORS AND PARTICIPANTS In the paper the authors indicate: > " The use of video as a primary or supplementary means of presenting > information on science issues . . ." I wonder how extensively "The World of Chemistry" videos are used: 1. In high school chemistry 2. In teaching non-chemistry undergraduates 3. In teaching undergraduate chemistry majors Are they used: a. in lecture (tutorial or quiz sessions), b. as required homework assignments, c. or as optional resource materials? I imagine that the tapes have been used in all of these ways in particular courses. Do the AUTHORS have any statistics on such use? In the courses described in their paper the authors seem to be discussing 2-a and b usage. Have they used the materials in other ways? How have PARTICIPANTS used these tapes and other materials? Describe how the course is organized and how useful the videos have been. Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 22:35:13 EDT From: Dan Swartling Subject: Re: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES We have used the video series as lab material for our chemistry for liberal arts class. The tapes are very informative and very well received. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 21:31:04 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In-Reply-To: <9306292056.AA10856@umd5.umd.edu> On Tue, 29 Jun 1993, Donald Rosenthal wrote: > PAPER 4 DISCUSSION ON USE OF VIDEOS > > TO: AUTHORS AND PARTICIPANTS > > I wonder how extensively "The World of Chemistry" videos are used: > Houston Community College System offers three freshman level and organic sophomore level chemistry courses. I use the World of Chemistry vidoes in all these courses. I cannot imagine teaching without " The Mole" (one faculty member reported applause after her students viewed this video.) I use this video in all freshman level courses. " Signals from Within" is an excellent introduction to infrared for the organic chemistry students. "Water" is another of my favorites for the freshman level courses. Our three freshman courses are (1) introductory chemistry for students who never took chemistry in high school (a 3-hr lecture/lab), (2) a 4-hr (lecture/lab) course for those following a health career path, and general chemistry. I also use parts of many of the other videos; only time limits prevents my inclusion of additional videos. The World of Chemistry is a high quality program that always hold the attention of my students. Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 09:01:11 CST From: John Moore Subject: Re: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES I have used the World of Chemistry videotapes in categories 2 and 3 of Don Rosenthal's question. I think they worked very well to give the students a view of the forest of chemistry as opposed to the view of individual leaves on the trees that we usually present in lecture or textbooks. The tapes were a semi-required part of the course. I had one tape each week and picked out the half-hour tape that matched what I was doing in lecture that week. Tapes were available in a laboratory room and at the end of the week in the big lecture hall with a 3-gun video projector. Students watched them raptly until the summary review at the end, at which point they figured everything was over. I was present at most of the showings, except when I was out of town. By semi-required, I mean that the tapes were said to be required but the points to be gained by watching them were only a small fraction (1.6%) of the total for the course. Most students watched the requisite number of tapes, and I think they got a good overview of each week's content as well as a much better idea of how that content fit into real-world applications of chemistry. I was quite pleased with the way this worked. John Moore University of Wisconsin-Madison As a reminder, Don Rosenthal's categories 2 and 3 were: >2. In teaching non-chemistry undergraduates > >3. In teaching undergraduate chemistry majors > Our main freshman course includes some chemistry majors but lots of other science majors and some students who are satisfying a science distribution requirement. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 09:08:25 CST From: John Moore Subject: Re: Carolyn Judd on USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES Re the comment that more World of Chemistry tapes would be used if there were more time, it is not necessary to use and entire tape and consequently an entire half hour's time. Conference participants should be aware that Nava Ben-Zvi has edited many of the demonstrations and animations from World of Chemistry into two hours worth of video laserdiscs that have been published by Journal of Chemical Education: Software as World of Chemistry: Selected Demonstrations and Animations I and II. The laser videodisc format makes it possible for you to go to any desired demo or animation and show only the part that you want. Thus you could use this in lecture without having to show a whole tape or queue up exactly the section you want. The material is barcoded and frame numbers are given for each segment in the written documentation for each disc. Each laser videodisc costs $150. If you want more information contact J. Chem. Educ. Software at 608-262-5153. John Moore University of Wisconsin-Madison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 10:25:18 -0500 From: "James E. Van Verth" Subject: Re: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES Selected portions of the World of Chemistry tapes are available on two videodiscs, available from JCE-Software, U. Wisconsin, $150 each. The advantage of the videodisc format is, of course, rapid access of any segment, so that a number of short sequences can be easily interspersed within a lecture. James E. Van Verth Department of Chemistry VANVERTH@CANISIUS.BITNET Canisius College, Buffalo, NY 14208 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 11:34:45 EDT From: Nava Ben Zvi <201226@UMDD.BITNET> Subject: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In-Reply-To: Message received on Tue, 29 Jun 93 16:50:29 EDT regarding Donald Rosenthal's comment; the WOC tapes have been used all over the world in many different ways, not only in 1,2 and 3 but also in junior high schools and in the workplace, such as industries and also in teachers in-service and pre-service workshops. they were not aonly used as a,b, and c but also as examination materials. We do not have any statistics about the relative different uses, but we have information from various sources about the different ways the WOC tapes are used. Our studeants in the case study described in the paper , used the tapes together with text book, study guide and laboratory guide. Ifmore informationrequested, please write to NAVA BEN ZVI 201226@UMDD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 11:42:51 EDT From: Nava Ben Zvi <201226@UMDD.BITNET> Subject: Re: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In-Reply-To: Message received on Tue, 29 Jun 93 22:36:19 EDT thanks for the information about the extensive use of the WOC tapes. Nava ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 11:44:52 EDT From: Nava Ben Zvi <201226@UMDD.BITNET> Subject: Re: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In-Reply-To: Message received on Tue, 29 Jun 93 22:51:31 EDT regarding Carolyn S. Judd's comment; Thank you for sharing with us your experience with some of the WOC tapes. To the best of our knowledge the tapes are shown and used extensively around the world in different languages and for different puposes and the general feeling is that they bring a new dimension to the learning of chemistry. Ifmore information needed, write to NAVA BEN ZVI at 201226@UMDD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 11:47:10 -0400 From: "Frank W. Darrow" Subject: Re: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In my non-majors courses "Chemistry and Your Body" and "Contemporary Chemical Issues" I use two to three hours of video from "The World of Chemistry" during the semester and in the first year majors course I use about one hour. In our second year organic course we use about one hour. In all cases the video is used during class sessions and is preceded with an overhead or two, or blackboard, preparing students for what they will see and what they should look for. The video is followed by lecture and discussion about it. The faculty manual that accompanies the telecourse is useful in preparing the pre and post showing things. We bought one of the videodiscs and we will use it instead of the videotape when appropriate this next year. Like most we also use other videos, discs, and demonstrations. In my non-majors courses they account for about one-third of class time, in the major course about one-fifth (the extent of content problem). Whatever is most appropriate to get the job done as we see it. Students receive these things well, and the change of pace/style of presentation is useful in keeping students "on task". ---------- Frank W. Darrow, Chemistry Dept., Ithaca College, Ithaca, NY 14850 Darrow@Ithaca.BitNet (607) 274-3991 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 12:18:02 EDT From: Nava Ben Zvi <201226@UMDD.BITNET> Subject: Re: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In-Reply-To: Message received on Wed, 30 Jun 93 10:06:14 EDT REGARDING JOHN MOORE'S COMMENT; THANK YOU FOR SHRING YOUR OWN EXOERIENCE WITH THE WOC.DID YOU TRY TO USE A SEGMENT OF THE TAPE AS AN EXAM QUESTION? NAVA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 12:21:10 EDT From: Nava Ben Zvi <201226@UMDD.BITNET> Subject: Re: Carolyn Judd on USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In-Reply-To: Message received on Wed, 30 Jun 93 10:08:30 EDT REGARDING JOHN MOORE'S SECOND COMMECT; YES, WE DO HAVE DEMONSTARATIONS AND GRAPHICS FROM THE WOC SERIES ON VIDEODISCS. OUR NEXT STEP WILL BE THE CD-ROM. ANYBODY WANTS TO JOIN IN? NAVA AT 201226@UMDD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 15:28:51 EDT From: Nava Ben Zvi <201226@UMDD.BITNET> Subject: Re: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In-Reply-To: Message received on Wed, 30 Jun 93 11:51:23 EDT REGARDING FRANK BARROW'S MESSAGE IT IS VERY PLEASING TO READ HOW THE WOC MATERIALS ARE USED IN A VARIETY OF SHEMISTRY COURSES WITH A STRONG STS APPROACH.THANKS. NAVA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 15:23:00 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: Carolyn Judd on USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES I'd like more information about the CD ROM. Barbara Gaddis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 18:14:08 CST From: John Moore Subject: Re: USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES > >REGARDING JOHN MOORE'S COMMENT; >THANK YOU FOR SHRING YOUR OWN EXOERIENCE WITH THE WOC.DID YOU TRY TO USE A >SEGMENT OF THE TAPE AS AN EXAM QUESTION? >NAVA The answer to this is no, because I never had an exam where all of the students were in a room where I could show the tapes. However, I would like to use the videodisc this way. John Moore ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 18:16:54 CST From: John Moore Subject: Re: Carolyn Judd on USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In Message Wed, 30 Jun 93 16:57:35, chemconf@umdd.bitnet writes: > >REGARDING JOHN MOORE'S SECOND COMMECT; >YES, WE DO HAVE DEMONSTARATIONS AND GRAPHICS FROM THE WOC SERIES ON VIDEODISCS. >OUR NEXT STEP WILL BE THE CD-ROM. ANYBODY WANTS TO JOIN IN? >NAVA >AT 201226@UMDD In another six months JCE: Software will begin distributing CD ROM discs, but I do not know what will be on the first one yet. We would have to get permission to do WOC from the videodiscs, right Nava? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 20:09:32 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: John Moore on USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In-Reply-To: <9306301429.AA20228@umd5.umd.edu> John, Thank you for the ideas for using the Videodisc The World of Chemistry. Hopefully J. Chem. Ed: Software will soon receive orders from my college for both volumes. Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 22:37:06 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Use of WOC videos in Courses I have used WOC videos in non science majors courses for the past two years. I use these videos as an alternative to lecture. Before viewing the video I provide the students with a typed page of questions that they must complete after viewing the video. The assignment involves concept identification and clarification as well as application of the concepts to new situations. This year was the first year for using the question sheet. Student feed back was that they wanted more oportunities to review the video so as to get the correct ideas written down. They convinced me that it would also be good to have a discussion period after the video in which they could explore their understanding more thoroughly. I will do this in the comming academic year. Regarding 15-20 page papers. Students at Niagara like students everywhere are great procrastinators. Term papers are postponed to the last minute with stress build up at the end of the semester. I have found that more frequent shorter papers on more focused topics with 2-4 page limits at the rate of one every two weeks or so interspersed with other writing assignments keeps up a steady pace and facilitates learning. It also releaves me of the burden of grading so many long papers at the end of the semester. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Niagara University NY 14109 Roszieli@ubvms ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 23:19:46 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper 4 It is not surprising that materials produced in one country are not fully transferable to another even if that other country has a similar technological base. Even within one country the situation can be very complex when materials are used in non traditional learning situations or in bits and pieces to fit a traditional course. Further complications arise when age and cultural differences within a country are included. This makes assessment of the materials difficult. But instead of waiting for the perfect assessment tool for a diverse population of practitioners and students, assessment should proceed and the findings incorporated as they are discovered as is indicated in this paper. My interest in assessment is relatively new. I am trying to learn how to do it appropriately. I know that I don't want more numbers for my roll book. I want to assess learning during learning while I have time to affect the out come of instruction. In my opinion exam time is too late for identifying cognitive problems. What are people doing about assessing learning during instruction? My interest is to use pre and post assessment with my chem majors in pchem - first, to discover misconceptions (I am aware of Bodner's work in this area). Unfortunately all those misconceptions that I discovered in students over the past 25 years were not written down and since I have a poor memory I am now trying to get them any way that I can. Second, I would also like to assess the degree of learning due to a particular activity. In the paper it mentions that students overall chemical literacy improved as did their attitudes toward chemistry. These are two very important outcomes for the student who must now become an independent learner of science in an ever more complex and technological world. One of my goals as a teacher is to make science "user friendly" or rather to generate some friendly users of science. Toward this end I would be very interested in assessing science literacy and science attitudes in my classes for non science majors. I heard that assessing science attitudes was very difficult. What tests did you use for science literacy and science attitudes. Would you be able to share the tests or the sources? I am trying to generate assessment tools for my own students and would appreciate any help that could be extended in this area. Theresa Julia Zielinski Chemistry Department Niagara University Niagara University NY 14109 Roszieli@UBVMS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 09:19:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 5 -Discussion PAPER 5 IT'S HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME by Joyce C. Brockwell This is an interesting proposal. If well planned and implemented, such software could be very useful. In Appendix A the dialog ends with the student having selected two compounds and being told (s)he has guessed the identity of the compound. Personally, I would like to see another question asked: What could you do to determine which of the two (or more) compounds you actually have? This question could be asked on the worksheet. SQUALOR is a Simulated QUAL ORganic analysis program which is quite well done. Has the AUTHOR used this with her students? What do some of the other PARTICIPANTS think of SQUALOR? Does it play a useful role in teaching students something about Qualitative Organic Analysis? Donald Rosenthal Box 5810 Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 09:45:57 -0400 From: Mary Swift Subject: Paper 5 I would like to suggest that the program to grade to the organic qual unknowns could be made into an instructional tool that aids the student in developing his thinking/problem solving skills Once the data base is created the "front end" would be structured as a laboratory. That is the student would be presented with an unknown and given "access" to a set of tools. The student would select the analyses to be carried out and come to his conclusion about the identity of the unknown. For an example of this type of instructional package see the BioQUEST library which was received an EDUCOM award as best curriculum last year. In some ways these applications come very close to the ways in which we try to approach our own problem solving and the students are "given" access to equipment that would normally be to expensive to let them "play" with. Mary L.Swift ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 09:05:57 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: Paper 5 -Discussion We have used SQUALOR as a supplement to qualitative organic analysis in both the majors and non majors organic chemistry lab. Students liked this program very much. They felt it prepared them both for the actual laboratory exercise and for the lab exams. Many students came in on their own time to work additional problems over what had been assigned. I think it is good as a supplement, but I would hate to see it replace hands-on work in the lab. Barbara Gaddis' U.C.C.S. Science Learning Center P.O. Box 7150 Colorado Springs, CO 80933-7150 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 10:53:56 -0500 From: Joyce Brockwell Subject: Re: Paper 5 In-Reply-To: <01H00T7INZG00011VI@nuacc.acns.nwu.edu> from "Mary Swift" at Jul 1, 93 09:45:57 am Mary Swift has suggested that the qual grader become an instructor as well, through the simple expedient of allowing the students to study the system and the analysis process by taking hypothetical unknowns through the program. This, indeed, would be a powerful use of such software, allowing the sudents to achieve a level of "comfort" with, e.g. single unknown, to present them with more challenges in the real lab (mixtures!) Yes, it would have that very practical use implicit in its construction. J.C.Brockwell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 11:02:10 -0500 From: Joyce Brockwell Subject: Re: Paper 5 -Discussion In-Reply-To: <01H00SE51ASG000F9I@nuacc.acns.nwu.edu> from "Donald Rosenthal" at Jul 1, 93 09:19:00 am Don Rosenthal has inquired about the possibibility of a "back end" function on the qual program--a last inquiry to the user about distinguishing the specific unknown from the choice of two given by the final guesses. Such an extension would be possible, but , I suspect, better done in "wetware"--student-teacher interactions. Either way, its a natural. Don, as well as Barbara Gaddis, have inquired about SQUALOR, the award-winning software simulating qualitative analysis in organic chemistry. SQUALOR, and other useful instructional programs, may potentially shorten the learning curve in mastering strategy in qual. With practic3 on the simulator, students may learn to ask themselves the next question during the analysis. Use of the comuputer cannot replace the laboraty experience, but it can make it "easier" for the students, thus reducing stress and allowing the experiments to be a bit more challenging. At present, Northwestern lacks the hardware to dedicate to chemistry service courses on computers. In fact, we are in a better position to allow the laboratory experience (including instrumentation!) However, the computers will eventually find their way into our curriculum, allowing simulations to expand the students' experience and enhance their laboratory learning. Joyce Brockwell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 18:06:36 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper5 discussion - SQUALOR I heard the author of SQUALOR speak at the Fall ACS meeting in NYC in 1991. I also have seen the program in action. I recall that one of the purposes of the program was to allow students intensive practice with a variety of samples (many more than could be done practically in lab by one student in one semester). There was no intention that the program be used to substitute for real wet lab work. As I recall the program allows input of new compounds including spectra. With a secure set of unknowns in a separate file it can even be used for assessment with or without the professor at the elbow of the student. The main problem that I anticipate with SQUALOR or the program proposed here is that the success depends on the attitude of the instructor. If simulations are a valued type of educational tool then the instructor will foster use of the program. If the instructor views simulations as just so much guessing then the students will not get much out of the program and it will probably not be used often or effectively. Even a good and interesting program like SQUALOR can be made a boring chore for the student if the correct parameters are set in class or lab by the instructor. Personally I prefer the SQUALOR approach. Its goal is to foster student learning by providing painless rapid practice sessions. Probably the best of all worlds would be to have both programs, SQUALOR and the one proposed here, especially at larger departments. It is important to get the instructor out from behind the desk and out from under a pile of papers and into the lab talking to and mentoring students. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 17:16:20 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Paper 5 In-Reply-To: <9307011408.AA15070@umd5.umd.edu> On Thu, 1 Jul 1993, Mary Swift wrote: > For an example of this type > of instructional package see the BioQUEST library which was > received an EDUCOM award as best curriculum last year. I would like to hear more about this instructional package. Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 20:05:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 5 In-Reply-To: <9307012222.AA20976@umd5.umd.edu> > I would like to hear more about this instructional package. BioQUEST is a set of simulations and related material for biology instruction (genetics, biometrics, molecular biology, etc.). It's a significant, highly-rated cooperative effort of several institutions. It is being published in a very enlightened way by the U. of Maryland Academic Software Development Group. Write to asdg@umdd.umd.edu. You can also download a very nice introduction to the project from cs.beloit.edu /public/bioquest. Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 10:13:57 +1000 From: Adrian Blackman Subject: Paper 5 and TORGANAL Paper 5 - It's how you play the game, by Joyce Brockwell There have been several references to SQUALOR. I would like to draw attention to another program which simulates organic qualatative analysis. It is called TORGANAL - Tasmanian organic analysis. The program aims to simulate the process a chemist would use to identify an unknown organic compound. It includes both physical (including spectroscopic) and chemical tests. It has been designed as a pre-laboratory rehearsal so that students can approach the real task of identifying an organic unknown with more confidence and efficiency. TORGANAL has been very favorably reviewed in 'Software Reviews' volume 7, pages 20-21 (published by the CTI Centre for Chemistry, University of Liverpool, UK) and in 'Chemistry in Australia', May, 1993, page 226. There are licenced users in the USA, UK and Australia. An IBM compatible computer is required with at least EGA graphics and 640K RAM. The program is available as shareware from SIMTEL-20 in the directory EDUCATION as the file TORG311.ZIP or from Budgetware, PO Box 496, Newtown, New South Wales, Australia, 2042, as catalogue number PC8115. Dr Adrian Blackman E-Mail Adrian.Blackman@chem.utas.edu.au Chemistry Department University of Tasmania PO Box 252C,Hobart Tasmania Australia 7001 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 06:08:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 5 and TORGANAL In-Reply-To: <9307020016.AA26360@umd5.umd.edu> Here are some other FTP sources for TORGANAL: torg310.zip: Organic chemistry ID of unknowns simulator Host ftp.uu.net Location: /systems/ibmpc/msdos/simtel20/education FILE -rw-r--r-- 172682 Apr 21 1992 torg310.zip Host rigel.acs.oakland.edu Location: /pub/msdos/education FILE -rw-r--r-- 172682 Apr 21 1992 torg310.zip Host wuarchive.wustl.edu Location: /mirrors/msdos/education FILE -rw-r--r-- 172682 Apr 21 1992 torg310.zip Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 09:02:07 EDT From: Nava Ben Zvi <201226@UMDD.BITNET> Subject: Re: Carolyn Judd on USE OF WORLD OF CHEMISTRY VIDEOS IN COURSES In-Reply-To: Message received on Wed, 30 Jun 93 19:15:50 EDT regarding John Moore's comment about CD ROMs. Yes, we have to get permission to use the WOC on CD ROM and I will be delighted tohelp and get us started. Nava ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 09:36:10 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: Paper 5 and TORGANAL In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 2 Jul 1993 06:08:00 EDT from I don't find torganal as torg310.zip at any of the three sites you suggest. Any ideas? Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 09:48:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 5 and TORGANAL In-Reply-To: <9307021338.AA21080@umd5.umd.edu> I just did another Archie search and came up with: Host gatekeeper.dec.com Location: /.2/micro/msdos/simtel20/education FILE -r--r--r-- 172682 Apr 21 1992 torg310.zip Host gdr.bath.ac.uk Location: /simtel-cdrom/msdos/educatin FILE -r-xr-xr-x 172682 Apr 21 1992 torg310.zip Host nctuccca.edu.tw Location: /PC-MsDos/Garbo-pc/science FILE -r--r--r-- 172949 Apr 10 1992 torg310.zip Host plaza.aarnet.edu.au Location: /micros/pc/garbo/pc/science FILE -r--r--r-- 172949 Apr 10 1992 torg310.zip Host wuarchive.wustl.edu Location: /mirrors/msdos/education FILE -rw-r--r-- 172682 Apr 21 1992 torg310.zip Location: /mirrors4/garbo.uwasa.fi/science FILE -rw-rw-r-- 172949 Apr 10 1992 torg310.zip Things are always changing on the Internet, and I suppose that even Archie might be out of date, since it's my understanding that individual sites are polled by Archie only about once a month. Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 09:47:56 -0400 From: HANKS@FRMNVAX1.BITNET Subject: Re: paper5 discussion - SQUALOR Several people have discussed the use of programs which simulate the traditional "Organic Unknown" lab, ofter with the caveat that the programs should not replace the wet chem lab. Last year, we began using SQUALOR to do just that. Our reasoning is that while the logic process taught in the unknown lab is valuble, many of the techniques are not. Organic chemists in the "real world" rely of modern spectroscopic methods to identify compounds while rarely resorting to a Tollen's test and etc. Please note that while we no longer do a wet lab organic unknown, we have not reduced the amount of time students spend in the wet chem lab. Rather, the wet chem lab now focuses more on synthetic techniques and spectroscopic identification of products. Timothy Hanks Department of Chemistry Furman University Greenville, SC Hanks@frmnvax1.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 09:05:37 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: Re: paper 5 > Spectroscopic data including ir and 1Hnmr absorptions, possibly uv and 13Cnmr will be included as well >Hanks: >Organic chemists in the "real world" rely on modern spectroscopic methods to identify compounds while rarely resorting to a Tollen's test, etc. Ms. Brockwell's paper is a well thought out approach to the development of a computer program for grading unknowns in organic qual. I would like to develop one aspect of writing such programs which is touched on in the paper but which needs further consideration: How can programs be developed so that they can be adapted to the needs of other teachers? One obvious answer which Ms. Brockwell presents is separating the data base from the program. Thus the data base will be useable by those including spectroscopic techniques in the organic qual. I agree with the use of C/C++ in writing code for programs like this. However we must recognize that most teachers do not know this language. Thus it seems to me that it is nexessary to move all the content out of the program and into editable files. Without some separation like this I do not see how a program like Brockwell's could be used with the prganic qual program here at Montana State University. I am working hard on considering how computer assisted instruction can be written with this sort of separation. I would appreciate ideas on this from any and all conference participants. My E-mail address is "uchrh@earth.oscs.montana.edu". sincerely, Reed Howald ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 18:48:20 -0400 From: "Mr. Science" Subject: Re: paper 5 "Number One, engage text-extractor beam... NOW!!" "Aye, Captain!!" BBBZZZFFFTTT!!! "Captain, previous message locked into extractor beam. Begin reply?" "Mr. Riker... Make it so!" > >One obvious answer which Ms. Brockwell presents is separating the data base >from the program. Thus the data base will be useable by those including >spectroscopic techniques in the organic qual. > >I agree with the use of C/C++ in writing code for programs like this. However >we must recognize that most teachers do not know this language. Thus it seems >to me that it is nexessary to move all the content out of the program and into >editable files. Without some separation like this I do not see how a program >like Brockwell's could be used with the prganic qual program here at Montana >State University. > >I am working hard on considering how computer assisted instruction can be >written with this sort of separation. I would appreciate ideas on this from >any and all conference participants. My E-mail address is >"uchrh@earth.oscs.montana.edu". > Hey guys, since Windows and other Windowing environments (XWindows, OS/2, Mac UNIX) allow for graphics and "movies" to be displayed, why not use Borland's Object Windows to allow different instructors to use the database (appropriately configured to be used within Object Windows, of course!) to design indivudal programs? That would solve the problem entirely, as Object Windows really doesn't expect anyone to have a great deal of programming background in any real sense. Just my two cents worth! regards, Tony ;> Date this awe-inspiring message was sent: 2-JUL-1993 18:45:27 *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* | Anthony V. Rosati | | | Department of Chemistry, | "A nation that cannot think, | | Georgetown University | cannot survive." | | Washington, D.C. 20057-2222 | | | ROSATI@GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU | - Norman Mailer, 1992 | | A_ROSATI@GUVAX.GEORGETOWN.EDU | National Press Club | # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # | Information Exchange Coordinator and Member, Board of Directors | | National Association of Graduate-Professional Students (NAGPS) | | 1993 - 1994 | *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 09:39:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 1 - General Discussion Period Re: Paper 1 - General Discussion From: Donald Rosenthal --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 23:46:12 -0400 ======== > From: theresa Julia Zielinski > Organization: University at Buffalo > Subject: paper1 > I have some questions that I could not ask because I was out of town. > Do your students remain in lab for the full three hours? * The experiments were designed so they would take the full three * hours. Some student pairs work more efficiently than others * and some less efficiently. Some students finish early. Some * students need additional time in which to finish - they may stay * beyond the three hours or else arrange to come in to finish an * experiment. ----------------------------- > Do the students have 6 hours of lab per week? I was not sure > from the text. * Yes * There are six scheduled hours of laboratory each week for each * student in this course. ----------------------------- > Why do You use nylon as the polymer? Wouldn't the standard > polystyrene in toluene or methanol/toluene mixtures or > BSA in aqueous urea mixtures be > as good for the purpose. This might free up some lab time > for a laser experiment or a molecular modeling exercise. * Generally, this is the only required polymer synthesis the * students perform at Clarkson. The synthesis of Nylon-66 involves * the interfacial reaction of a solution of adipyl chloride with a * solution of 1,6-hexanediamine and gradually withdrawing the polymer * rope. Students seem to enjoy the experiment. * Molecular modelling is performed in organic chemistry using PC Model, * HyperChem or SPARTAN. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 19:29:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: POLL OF PARTICIPANTS ABOUT WHAT EVERY STUDENT SHOULD KNOW PAPER 1 WHAT EVERY CHEMIST NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT COMPUTERS AND COMPUTING There has been considerable discussion during the first session of this Computer Conference about this topic. In some schools computer courses are required. In other schools there is no requirement. Some chemistry departments include much of what students learn about computers and computing in their chemistry courses. In other schools much is taught by other Departments. Some students have learned a great deal about computers and computing before they enter college. I would be interested in learning what PARTICIPANTS think EVERY undergraduate and EVERY graduate student needs to know. I realize that your answers may be quite subjective. Also, depending upon what a student does he may use or need to know much more or much less about computers and computing than what we teach. Please fill out and return the following form to ME at ROSEN2@CLVM.BITNET (NOT TO CHEMCONF) by JULY 16. I will summarize the results and send the summary out during the General Discussion period between August 16 and August 20. ====================================================================== WHAT SHOULD EVERY CHEMISTRY STUDENT KNOW ABOUT COMPUTERS AND COMPUTING? Your Name (Optional) _________________________________________________ Address (Optional) ___________________________________________________ e-mail address (Optional) ____________________________________________ In answering the following questions you are being asked what is the MINIMUM an undergraduate and a graduate student needs to know about computers and computing. Use the number 1 to indicate that all chemistry students should be REQUIRED to learn about this. 2 = RECOMMENDED. 3 = PERHAPS. 4 = NO How much should the student learn? A = A LOT. B = SOME. C = A LITTLE. For example, as an answer to question 1, 2-C for undergraduates would mean you RECOMMEND that students learn a LITTLE. 1-B for graduate students would mean you would REQUIRE that graduate students know SOME (but not a LOT). For each question, following the line where the above information is requested you are asked to identify specific software or topics you would recommend. For example, in answer to 1, you might indicate that an undergraduates should know PASCAL, but a graduate student needs to know PASCAL, BASIC and FORTRAN. In the last column I am asking what PERCENT of your time WHICH YOU DEVOTE TO COMPUTING IS DEVOTED TO THIS PARTICULAR ACTIVITY. For example, in answer to 1, if you indicate 10%, this means that 10% of the time you devote to computing involves programming in a high level general purpose programming language. Undergraduate Graduate You Student Student % 1. High Level General Purpose Programming Language _______ _______ ___ Which language(s)? ______________________________________________ 2. Spreadsheets _______ _______ ___ Which spreadsheet(s) ___________________________________________ 3. Databases _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 4. Numerical methods software _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 5. Statistical methods _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 6. Molecular Modelling _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 7. Plotting _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 8. Graphics _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 9. Operating system(s) _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 10. Utilities Programs _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 11. Electronic mail _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 12. Networks and Networking _______ _______ ___ _________________________________________________________________ 13. On-line searching _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 14. Other languages or software _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 15. Computer interfaced instruments _______ _______ ___ Which? __________________________________________________________ 16. Computer Hardware _______ _______ ___ and Architecture Which? __________________________________________________________ 17. Interfacing _______ _______ ___ _________________________________________________________________ 18. Other computer skills _______ _______ ___ or software Which? __________________________________________________________ GENERAL QUESTIONS QUESTION 19 On the average how many hours do you spend on all the above listed computer activities each week? ______ hours QUESTION 20 Many universities require chemistry graduate students to exhibit proficiency in foreign languages by passing an examination or examinations. Some universities have accepted demonstrated proficiency in computing or a computing language as fulfilling the requirement for one foreign language. Is this desirable? ________ Provide information on the policy of your university or other universities with respect to this ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ Please return this form by JULY 16 to: Donald Rosenthal (ROSEN2@CLVM.BITNET) and NOT to CHEMCONF. A summary of responses will be distributed during the General Discussion between August 16 and August 20. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1993 10:13:00 EDT From: ROSEN1 Subject: Paper 5 - Joyce Brockwell's Answers to Short Questions To: CHEMCONF Participants For some reason I did not find Joyce Brockwell's Answers to Short Questions. She sent me a copy and I am forwarding it to CHEMCONF, since some of you may not have seen the memorandum. Don Rosenthal ====================================================================== SHORT ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AROUND PAPER 5: "IT'S HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME" I am taking the opportunity to collate the questions which I received and generalize a few of the replies. This is one of the distinct advantages of an electronic conference, that and being able to sit down, wear blue jeans and listen to the radio while I "confer". Well, here goes... *1* Alan Stolzenberg asked about using mixtures for unknowns in a qual scheme employing a computer "grading" system. I would anticipate that in organic chemistry, in the very least, mixtures would present few problems. A significant part of a student's learning in the organic laboratory is the process of separating and purifying materials, so that the separation and purification processes become part of the qualitative analysis. As such, questions apropos to this would be incorporated into the grading scheme: "was a separation process attempted?" "what methods were used?: chromatography, distillation, fractional crystallization, extraction, etc." "How many components (do you think) were obtained?"... Once the user had indicated that separation was accomplished in a usable fashion, the questions about the individual components would follow in due course. In an inorganic scheme, or even some organic schemes, particularly employing spectroscopy and only analytical chromatography, questions would be posed as being applicable to the mixture or the individual components: "What was the pH of water exposed to the mixture?" "Were the tlc's of the whole mixture and the mixture after treatment with bicarbonate solution comparable?"... *2* Professor Stolzenberg and Mary Swift further ask about the obvious task demand created by answering the computer's questions, the phenomenon I termed the "worksheet effect". The particular list of questions (an electronic worksheet) has the effect of channeling a student's thinking and performance in the laboratory to the point of their performing inappropriate tests simply because the program asks about them. I have attempted by several means to avoid making the strategy for identifying any particular unknown a "set piece". One means I tried to indicate in the program design is that succeeding questions would be triggered by replies to previous questions, i.e. beyond the most basic processes appropriate for all analyses (bp, mp, solubility, pH), the next question asked would depend on the answer to the previous one. Inherent in this scheme would be an algorithm testing for the plausibility of the set of responses, so that a "manufactured" set of replies would not elicit the full set of questions. A clever student would likely still be able to dump out the set of questions, but not without doing some chemistry homework, and that would teach him/her the chemistry which is the whole point anyway! In the design of my qual labs, I divided the unknowns into groups that do not completely overlap in terms of strategy, so that learning on one group is applicable to the next, but not necessarily sufficient for success. In fact, in preparation for this conference I used a qual "guess sheet" in the spring quarter laboratories that was a reformatted list of the questions from the program. At least in this case, the questions were not a significant effect in altering the students behavior or success from previous qual labs. The largest effect on a student's performance is the interaction with the teaching assistant in the lab which follows from the students' awareness that the TA is the person giving them their lab grade. As formulated, this would NOT be altered by use of the machine grader! The human-computer interaction would not be the largest nor the most crucial to the student in learning from qualitative analysis--that would remain the long, active dialog between the students and the TA's and their fellow students. Which brings me to Mary Swift's second question, Professor Stolzenberg's third, and the first related to the program structure: *3* What can be done to prevent the system being "hacked"? What will prevent a clever, computer-oriented student from altering the system so that the computer yields disinformation, both chemical and grading? Happily, the occurrence of hacking is a sure means of identifying a student who can help make the program better than it is. As long as there are computers, there will be hackers, but those people are the ones who can be put to work on the computer and the program to make both more useful, interesting and reliable. In answer to the question, the system (which is what this is) must necessarily be treated as though it were constantly compromised. At the start of each qual scheme, the files identifying the students, their id numbers and the unknowns must be recorded in fixed media--memory which is physically isolated from the system (back-ups!). In addition, the program itself must backed up and restored when tampering is suspected. As the qual labs proceed, frequent automatic redundant back-ups must be made to minimize the loss of information from alteration of the system. Most importantly, the electronic record must not be the only record of the student's work. The laboratory notebooks are the primary source of information, and a "guess" not documented in the notebook should not be validated. While the possibility of altering students' scores in a computer system is always present, the numbers are less of a concern in my laboratories because the largest proportion of the grade is assigned on a subjective basis by the TA ("technique"--one undergraduate TA described this as the ultimate secret grading method). This has the salutatory effect of making the TA's pay attention to the students (grades are NOT undocumented), and lifting the emphasis of getting "the answer", shifting it to "class participation" (brown-nosing is explicitly discouraged). The whole course is designed to de-emphasize the grades and re-emphasize the work itself. Even in the very large classes, I have a significant personal presence which over the long-term has allowed me to see transient problems in students' ability to perform, TA's ability to teach or lead or grade, physical problems with the laboratories, etc. The computer program would be integrated into this environment, and, unless the hacking were exquisitely subtle, "what hurts us only makes us stronger". *4* (isn't it time for new topic?) Platform: I have written programs for the Macintosh, and my own computer is a Mac. I live in a department which prefers command-line operating systems, so I know what goes into both. The design of the tutor as it appears in my paper is sadly very menu-ish, very like the oldest and ugliest command-line programs. It would become interesting in the hands of some young programmer who who was raised on MTV and nurtured by Hollywood. (My theories of programming assign it as a sublimated urge to wreak havoc among certain segments of our young population.) As a set of window, tools, objects, devices and images, it would zip along in a very entertaining mode. My answer: the design is largely independent of platform, particularly since I suspect it must be written in a high-level code, C++ being my preference. At this point, my questions change from inquiries about the nuts and bolts of the program and its hardware, to the "wetware" questions--pedagogy and administration. *5* On to meta-levels: Douglas Coe has inquired of us all about the extent to which organic qual is required of chemistry majors in our various schools. At Northwestern, qual is the fourth segment of the lab, the second half of the second quarter of lab--in a course which is an elective for all but the chemistry majors, for whom it is a requirement. The laboratory curriculum is set by my choices, and largely independent of the lecture course of which it is a part. I keep qual in the curriculum for the reasons I have stated in the paper: it is a solid, comprehensive review of the skills which may only be learned in an empirical setting, and it hones the problem solving skills of the students (it separates the quick and the dead). The strategy of playing "Betty Crocker" and using file copies of old laboratories even in discovery labs, is not effective in a qual lab. I do infinitely prefer writing a recommendation letter for a student who has elected to take that second quarter of organic lab, be it for summer jobs, graduate or professional school, or what have you. We had a faculty member who described the experience as "character building", and I have to agree. I have used multi-step experiments; I use discovery labs as a matter of course, and I encourage constructive collaboration while downgrading the "two body-one brain" syndrome frequently encountered in labs. I have tried using assigned "partnerships" in qual itself, but not successfully. The problems are set a level which is accessible to all of the students and the means to finding solutions so rich and so abundant that success is not difficult to find. In this context, I find qualitative analysis to be a discriminating filter in student performance not found elsewhere, and so I keep it in the curriculum. *6* Professor Coe has asked a second general question: how many of us have expended the time and effort to write a computer program to ease the burden of some repetitive task, specifically grading a large class? I have engaged in this (frustrating) activity at two levels: I am an incessant tinkerer and have tinkered with grading methodology among other things. I use a spreadsheet now, instead of the BASIC program which I wrote years ago, to "level" the grades in the lab sections having different TA's. I may have from 6 to 24 different TA's in one course, necessitating that there be some consistency in the grading across sections. I do not have an objective scoring system--I consider it counterproductive for pedagogy, so I need to minimize the effects of my very subjective grading scheme. This is done in the usual fashion by finding the "grand mean" (and standard deviation and recalculating the section means and standard deviations to match. My second and far more significant foray into programming was the creation of Beaker. This program was created in demand for some means to have organic chemistry, commonly (erroneously!) perceived to be a bunch of memorization, be more easily learned by students with a rigorous mathematical orientation. The proposal was to have the students themselves write an electronic page turner. My response was to have them write an electronic tutor. The result of 3 years of work, some 30,000 lines of C by two excellent programmers is an expert system which embodies no more than 40% of the original design--at a cost of ~$70,000. It would be nice to have another go at it, but it would have to be a full-time job. So, yes, I have put in my time on some keyboards. *7* And last, but not least, my student clientele. Mary Swift asks about the "default" chemistry student at NU: the pre-meds, to wit "For the pre-meds (75% of the class), what is the major objective - development to critical thinking skills or development of manual dexterity? If it is critical thinking, how many wet labs are absolutely necessary to permit the students to get an acceptable level of manual dexterity?" In fact, the settings of the experiments are simple enough that manual dexterity is not a deciding factor in assessing performance. Students who have more than some minimal level of manual dexterity will succeed easily in the labs, and improve rapidly in those techniques which are repeated in several experiments (distillations, tlc, melting points, etc.). Students lacking manual dexterity tend to turn in a poor performance in other areas as well: observations, record keeping and interpretation. This is particularly evident in those experiments where the students are paired up and may thus compensate for a weak performer on technique by having the more dextrous partner perform the work. Too often, the weak partner is still not able to draw conclusions from the experimental observations. My chief objective in the organic laboratories is to give the students a real appreciation for the empirical nature of science.: to have them learn that an experiment is the physical equivalent of a question; that the observations made during the process are essential; that interpretation of the outcome of an experiment is not "did it work" but "what did you see?" and that learning is engaged most strongly where the learner engages the experimental process. Students who distance themselves from the labs because "they don't count" may fail even though their academic record is strong, while weaker students who do "engage" may succeed in the labs. The engagement develops critical thinking as one of a constellation of critically useful skills, among them thinking in "real time", and problem solving on a very practical plane. How many labs are required? Lab improves with practice, so more is better in my opinion. I would hesitate to trust the skill of a student who worked through fewer than a dozen elementary laboratory experiments: in two quarters, my students are required to carry out 18 experiments. *8* Mary Swift further inquires: "How many of the pre-meds obtain admission to medical school?" and "While one must acknowledge the goals of the student, would it not be better to emphasize that there are many careers, including medicine, that require the use of problem solving skills?" The historical placement rate of pre-meds from Northwestern exceeds 90% (more than 250 per year); among chemistry majors, the rate is not significantly different from 100%. And yes, throughout their career in the service courses in the chemistry department at NU, the students, be they science majors (chemistry, biology, geology, integrated science program, speech pathology, etc.), engineers or pre-professionals are immersed in an atmosphere where problem-solving at all levels, explicit and implicit, is key to success in their course work and subsequently in their careers. From: jbrockwe@vmspop.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Paper 5 answers to short Q's ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 09:14:06 +1000 From: Adrian Blackman Subject: Re: Paper 5 and TORGANAL >I don't find torganal as torg310.zip at any of the three sites you suggest. >Any ideas? > >Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 >Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 >University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU >Lexington, KY 40506 The most recent version of the Torganal program is TORG311.ZIP, dated 29 Mar, 1993. It is available from simtel20 and oakland and various other sites which mirror these e.g. rigel.acs.oakland.edu location /pub/msdos/chemistry ftp.uu.net location /systems/ibmpc/msdos/simtel20/chemistry src.doc.ic.ac.uk location /computing/systems/wsmr-simtel20.army.mil/chemistry archie.au location /micros/pc/oak/chemistry Adrian Blackman Email: Adrian.Blackman@chem.utas.edu.au Chemistry Department University of Tasmania Hobart, Tasmania Australia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 10:29:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 6 - Short Question PAPER 6 - Short Question INDIVIDUAL COMPUTER-GENERATED GRAPHICAL PROBLEM SETS Frank M. Lanzafame, Monroe Community College, Chemistry Dept., 1000 East Henrietta Rd., Rochester, NY 14623 Internet: FLANZAFAME@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU In Section VI > B. Generation of Statistical Fluctuations about a Value: > The program uses a function called ErrFactor (relative standard > deviation). This function returns a statistically generated > multiplier with a mean value of 1.00 and a standard deviation > given by the relative standard deviation specified. For > example, if it is desired to apply a 5 percent fluctuation to a > given value, the function called is ErrFactor (0.05). The > function returns a randomly generated value of 1.00 +/- 0.05 > which is applied as a multiplier to the value one wishes to > randomize. Thus a multiplier between 0.95 and 1.05 is generated > approximately 2 of 3 times. Since this follows a normal > distribution, occasionally one finds the 2 or 3 or 4 sigma > variation. This produces fluctuations with points which are > outside the limit (here 5 %) about 1 of 3 times. * In normal unweighted least squares calculations it is implicitly * assumed: * * 1. There is no error in X values, only in Y values. * 2. There is equal probability (0.5) of finding positive and negative * deviations from the true value of Y. * 3. The error in the value of Y is normally distributed (i.e. larger errors are less probable than smaller errors). * 4. The magnitude of the error in Y is independent of the value of X. * * QUESTION: Does your program generate errors which conform to * conditions 3 and 4? * * If the program multiplies the true value by a factor, * the error depends upon the value of X. * * There are algorithms which will generate normally * distributed errors which conform to condition 4. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 10:33:59 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper 6 short questions - figures I have gotten the binary files from simon fraser university as suggested (I think) I have pgen11zp.exe, and an executable to unzip itself is the proper way to distribute zipped files. My question is where are the three figures referred to? Using GET PAPER6 FIGURE3 with LISTSERV doesn't work. sincerely Reed Howald ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 08:13:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 7 - Short Questions Paper 7 INTEGRATING COMPUTERS INTO THE HIGH SCHOOL CHEMISTRY CLASSROOM William J. Sondgerath, Chemistry Teacher, Harrison High, West Lafayette, Indiana (BSONDGER@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU) Short questions on this paper: July 6, 1993 QUESTIONS: How would your course with integrated appear from the perspective of a student or a teacher? 1. Is there a course text? Do most students read the book? 2. Do you lecture and provide time for class discussion and problem working sessions? 3. Are computers integrated into the class hours or do students use the computers during study hall hours and after school? 4. On the average what fraction of the course is devoted to each type of activity? What about traditional laboratory work? 5. Computer activities must replace other activities. Which are the activities replaced? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 16:32:25 EET From: Mirja Karjalainen Subject: Paper7 short questions Paper 7, short questions: I. How did you select the classes for CAI? Should the students have any prior computer skills? IX. I'm not familiar with the Safety in Science Lab software. Is it designed specially for the high school science education? How much does it contain data about properties of chemicals? Could I get some further information about it (a demo?) through the Internet? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 09:59:06 EDT From: "R. T. Wilson" Subject: Paper7 by William J. Sondergrath It sounds like you are doing a great job of bringing your students into productive contact with computers in a variety of ways. I have a few logistical questions: 1. How many students are in your typical lab, and how long are the lab periods? 2. How much time does a typical student require to finish an experiment and report which requires word-processing or a spreadsheet? Do they usually finish the report during the lab period, or do they have to do it later in the media center? 3. You say: Subject: short questions paper 6 I am concerned about the question Lanzaframe raises, how do we give our students more experience with graphing? I would hope integrating computers into courses can spped up certain processes, including data collection and graphing. My question is - Do you find that using computers gives your students more experience with graphing, or do you have a net loss of time to spend on fundamentals like graphing? sincerely Reed Howald ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 09:50:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 8 - Short Questions PAPER 8 - Short Questions USING THE AIRWAVES: A SATELLITE M.S. FOR INDUSTRIAL CHEMISTS. K.J. Schray, N.D. Heindel, J.E. Brown. and M.A. Kercsmar. Department of Chemistry and Office of Distance Education, Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA 18015 (KJS0@Lehigh.edu) QUESTIONS 1. Will you elaborate more on the format of these courses. a. How many times does a given course meet each week - and how long is each class meeting? b. How much class time is devoted to lecture in the "average course" and how much time is devoted to discussion and in-class problem solving? How much assigned homework is there? Do most of these graduate courses have a textbook and reading assignments? Since classes can be videotaped, there should be a good opportunity for analysis of how class time is utilized. c. If a student has a question and is on-site, hopefully he would raise his hand and be recognized. How do you handle off-site participants? - Do they just yell out? d. What fraction of the total number of students in the "average course" are off-site? e. How do student course evaluations compare when the same course is given by the same instructor in regular and satellite mode? How do on-site students react to the somewhat different format of this course? Are there significant differences between evaluations received fron on-site and off-site students? 2. Lehigh has opted to teach its courses synchronously rather than asynchronously. There are some advantages to this choice, but there are also distinct disadvantages. You allude to the scheduled time being a problem - particularly for students in different time zones. You indicate that back-up videotaping is used. Such tapes would be quite satisfactory for lectures and off-site students would be able to hear (and see) the discussion of on-site students. THIS conference is being held asynchronously. Participants have an opportunity to ask questions which authors (and other participants) answer at scheduled times. What would you think of a format involving taped classes (for off-site students), asynchronous questions, and a few synchronous discussion sessions (which could be taped and viewed asynchronously)? It seems to me you have an opportunity to experiment with somewhat different formats. 3. Is electronic mail being used at all? This could be a useful communication tool in research and courses. For example, see Linda M. Harasim (editor), "ONLINE EDUCATION: Perspectives on a New Environment",Praeger, New York, 1990. Have you considered the use of a LISTSERV with access controlled by the manager? (LISTSERV is being used to run this conference.) Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13676 ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 13:34:26 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper8 questions 1. Would you provide a reference for the 15000 to 6000 drop in BS chemists and 80% to 20% drop in those intending to do graduate work? 2. Could you provide some data for the numbers of non chemists entering positions in industry requiring a chemistry degree? 3. I would be interested in obtaining a course syllabus for the "bridge" physical Chemistry course. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Niagara University NY 14109 Roszieli@ubvms ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 15:29:13 -0500 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 8 - Short Questions to follow up on Donald Rosenthal's question concerning the use of E-mail in the off-site courses, 1)do you think that it may be possible to teach these courses without the standard lecture format, using perhaps interactive computer worksheets( produced using mathematica). This would Eliminate the need for the expensive satelite uplink, and video production help could be given via EMAIL. On site students could take the lectureless courses as well. 2) what type of research projects are most common among your students? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 17:46:57 -0600 From: "Douglas A. Coe" Subject: Short Questions for Paper 8 I have three questions: 1. Lehigh's course numbering system seems to be non-standard. Can you briefly explain it? 2. Does Lehigh have master's programs that emphasize physical, inorganic, or other areas of chemistry, but which are not offered as satellite courses? If you do, are there plans to offer these as satellite courses? 3. What are the prerequisites for the courses listed in Table II. Doug Coe Montana Tech ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 05:35:15 CDT From: Charles Fox Subject: QUESTIONS-PAPER 8 I am interested in finding what the cost per hour or per course is for your MS/Chemistry via the air waves and how it compares to your normal coursework? Thanks, cfox@saunix.sau.edu Instructor St.Ambrose University 518 W. Locust St. Davenport, IA 52803 voice 319-383-8921 fax 319-383-8791 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 07:48:44 -0400 From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" Subject: Files for Papers 6 and 11 now complete on LISTSERV Dear CHEMCONFers: The figures for Paper 6 are now available on the LISTSERV database: PAPER6 TEXT PAPER6 FIGURE1 PAPER6 FIGURE2 PAPER6 FIGURE3 Paper 11 and its related files is now available on the LISTSERV database: PAPER11 TEXT PAPER11 BATCH PAPER11 EMAIL PAPER11 EXTRCR PAPER11 HINTS PAPER11 HWK PAPER11 MENU PAPER11 NOTES PAPER11 SYLABUS PAPER11 WRDLIST The meaning of these files is described in the paper itself, PAPER11 TEXT. Tom O'Haver CHEMCONF ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 07:59:28 -0500 From: "Steven G. O'Neal" Subject: Short Questions Paper 9 > But the need for training at a time of great transition is enormous. .... > Our employers, Federal and state agencies, foundations, and others must help > us find the time and money. I agree wholeheartedly! Many of us are also still struggling to find resources to obtain the necessary equipment and software. Would the members of the conference be willing to share successful strategies and sources toward gaining this important goal? Our community (Norman, OK) has created a foundation for competetive grants to acquire some materials or training, but the maximum amounts available ($1,000) are insufficient for computers, monitors, printers, etc. Any thoughts here would be welcome. Steven G. O'Neal, Ph.D. Norman Public Schools Steven G. O'Neal, Ph.D. 1220 Crossroads Court Norman, OK 73072 soneil@ncsa.uiuc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 07:58:47 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Short Questions for Paper 9 In-Reply-To: <9307072346.AA07463@umd5.umd.edu> Great food for thought found in your paper! Can you elaborate on the following excerpt from your paper: > The currently available >programs, the successors to those distributed on the >ChemSource CD-ROMs, will check your chemistry at that level. What are these successors? Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 09:49:24 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Paper 7 viewing SOND*.PIC files I have been unable to view the figures with Paper 7 using VPIC ver. 5.0 This viewer has worked with all GIF files for all other papers. The program indicates the files are not valid PIC files. I have used binary to FTP the files. Has anyone else had similar problems, or success in viewing (and with what viewer on a PC)? Thanks in advance. Frank Lanzafame flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 09:47:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 9 - Short Questions PAPER 9 - Short Questions Staff Development is the Biggest Cost in Computing: Ask For Released Time! David W. Brooks, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, Lincoln, Nebraska 68588-0355 E-mail: dbrooks@unlinfo.unl.edu In this paper you make a number of interesting comments > We have to begin with ourselves, not > our students. .... Are we well enough prepared? > The answer is almost certainly, 'no.' > Ask for released time. > How little training can one have and still be an > effective tool user? QUESTION 1 In your paper you mention - CAI, grading, word processing, spreadsheets, being aware of software that is available, etc. a. What do TEACHERS need to know? b. Suppose a teacher has had an introductory programming course, (s)he knows how to turn on a computer and load software. What should (s)he be taught in a one semester course entitled "Computers for Chemical Educators"? --------------------------------------------------------------- > Time spent in having students acquire skills that pit them > against the software now available is wasted time. There > are drill and practice program that really help to build > skills in certain areas -- gas law problems, mole problems, > assigning oxidation numbers, naming compounds and writing > formulas, etc. The existence of these programs is prima > facie evidence that the skill probably is not a worthy skill > to teach! QUESTION 2 If STUDENTS are not to use the software which is now available - spreadsheets, word processors and existing CAI, what should they be doing? QUESTION 3 a. Are you saying that students don't really need to know how to solve gas law problems, mole problems, naming compounds and writing formulas, because we have computers that can do this for us? If we really understand something, we should be able to use our knowledge and apply it (to solving problems). b. Should children be taught to add, subtract, multiply and divide? After all,we have calculators which can do this for us. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 09:01:24 EST From: "William J. Sondgerath" Subject: Re: Paper 7 viewing SOND*.PIC files In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 8 Jul 1993 09:49:24 EDT from I apologize for not having a way to view pic.files. I tried to get help from Purdue University to convert to gif. The only way that I know you could view would be to have access to storyboard plus from IBM or simply the file called storyboard driver. Sorry about inconvenience. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 10:24:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 7 viewing SOND*.PIC files In-Reply-To: <9307081343.AA09625@umd5.umd.edu> I was also unable to view these files. There are evidently some sort of special non-standard format, dispite the standard extension. The author does not know how to convert these to a standard format and I do not have access to the (commercial) software that generated the figures in the first place. I think we're stuck in this case. Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 09:23:50 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: short questions paper 9 >ask for released time >Yes, that includes art teachers, music teachers, and . . . This is a challenging paper. But we can't all get years of released time. Is it possible to devise computer assisted instruction that would show a music teacher how to use computers in his or her daily classroom use in two or three hours total time? Do we need to concentrate on software for his or her students instead? What will happen when students exposed to this training get to our freshman chemistry classes 5 to 20 years from now? Sincerely, Reed Howald ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 12:18:56 EST From: Larry Wier Organization: Saint Bonaventure University Subject: Paper 9 - Short Questions As pointed out by Dr.Brooks, the "hidden" cost of and need for training are both extremely large. Does anyone have strategies for convincing administrators of this? How does one get that release time? Also, how does one convince others that such training is a worthwhile use of one's time? (It probably does not qualify as "research" in the eyes of many.) Larry Wier ============================== Dr Larry Wier Dept of Chemistry St Bonaventure University St Bonaventure, N.Y. 14778 (716)375-2116 INTERNET:lwier@sbu.edu ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 13:10:42 -0400 From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster Is PIC the same as PICT? If so then use picttopbm then pbmtorast then rasttoppm & ppmtogif or ppmtops OR if you have a laserjet picttopbm then pbmtolj Get the pbmplus family of format converters from ftp.uu.net An archie search came up with a lot of hits (68)for /pic especially in connection with groff and 386-bsd/unix -- e.g. /systems/unix/bsd-sources/usr.bin/groff/pic on ftp.uu.net This (groff) is apparently gnu-ware so I would look in the gnu archives for pic manipulation programs (since apparently groff makes pic files which must eventually be printed!). Mike Whitbeck whitbeck@maxey.unr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 12:42:43 -0500 From: david brooks Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Short Questions In-Reply-To: <01H0ALJD1YJ4002QS6@crcvms.unl.edu> from "Donald Rosenthal" at Jul 8, 93 09:47:00 am Responses to Don's short questions: Citations from my text labeled as >> Copies of his question material labeled as ?? ?? In this paper you make a number of interesting comments >> We have to begin with ourselves, not >> our students. .... Are we well enough prepared? >> The answer is almost certainly, 'no.' >> Ask for released time. >> How little training can one have and still be an >> effective tool user? ?? In your paper you mention - CAI, grading, word processing, ?? spreadsheets, being aware of software that is available, ?? etc. ?? a. What do TEACHERS need to know? Teachers need to KNOW that machines will DO most of the "intellectual" work that well-trained professionals once did. Knowing that is much more than being able to spout it back -- it means having a sort of knee-jerk reaction to a problem in which the teacher turns first to a computer for assistance, guidance, and perhaps solutions. Teachers need to KNOW that the tools used in a task change the nature of the task -- even when the task is "thinking." ?? b. Suppose a teacher has had an ?? introductory programming course, (s)he knows how to turn ?? on a computer and load software. What should (s)he be ?? taught in a one semester course entitled "Computers for ?? Chemical Educators"? This is THE most important practical question. Even if we don't know where we are headed, it makes no sense to do (teach) nothing until 'things settle down.' It is agreed that we will teach something. Interfacing experiments and automating the process of collecting data is important. Widespread use of a very large variety of software packages is the best kind of introduction we can make. My best guess is to focus on achieving outcomes rather than worrying either about creating or understanding deeply the software leading to those outcomes. In other words, I would be much more interested in having students use a prepared worksheet (template) for stoichiometry than in creating all of the cell formulas that perform stoichiometry calculations for them. Many years back, a group at UCLA made a step in this direction by publishing a book in which spreadsheets formulae were given to handle essentially all of the computations used in an introductory biochemistry course for majors. I would cite the book, but it disappeared from my bookshelf. Sandra Lamb at UCLA chemistry was involved. She has a very good sense of 'the possible' with respect to instructional computing in chemistry. The Beaker program created by an author at this conference has numerous features to help one think. It was her program that cemented an idea for me two years ago. After seeing a half- dozen exhibitors demonstrate powerful molecular structure programs, I sat down during a symposium session and heard a speaker discuss the teaching of nomenclature using CAI. The punch line was meta-nitroanisole. From the molecular structure programs, it was clear that one could create meta- nitroanisole on a computer screen. One might not know if that substance had a history or even what it might be named, but just know that it was a good molecule to accomplish a particular task -- say binding to a protein. It was clear to me that some day one could 'circle' in the computer sense of that word any structure drawn on the screen and get back not only its name but a raft of information about the substance. The first structure I created with Beaker was -- you guessed it! It doesn't give that name back. I bet you can guess the name it does give back!! If you follow my suggestion, your students will never know of meta-nitroanisole unless they look up alternative names in a database or enter that name into a machine! The remarkable thing to me was that Beaker already existed and was available when the thought first occurred to me -- ignorance impeded my thinking. The world already was where I thought it might one day be. Using software tools changes how we think. That usage changes which tasks we think are important. That usage changes how we undertake tasks. ------------------------------------------------------------ I WANT TO ANSWER DON'S QUESTIONS OUT OF ORDER >> Time spent in having students acquire skills that pit them >> against the software now available is wasted time. There >> are drill and practice program that really help to build >> skills in certain areas -- gas law problems, mole problems, >> assigning oxidation numbers, naming compounds and writing >> formulas, etc. The existence of these programs is prima >> facie evidence that the skill probably is not a worthy >> skill to teach! I'M MOVING AHEAD TO QUESTION 3B . ?? QUESTION 3 ?? b. Should children be taught to add, subtract, multiply and ?? divide? After all, we have calculators which can do this ?? for us. Children today are not taught to multiply and divide in the same way that I was taught. They are taught to use machines (calculators). Both of my children (ages 23 and 21) would never think of doing arithmetic by head and hand. They use head and machine. One of them is at least as good a mathematician as I ever was, and the other is so much better that it makes my head spin. The time that I spent learning skills she has spent in learning more and more powerful mathematical concepts. Machines perform the skills for her. Are the children of today better (or worse) than I am or -- if you're past 35, you are? Who knows? They certainly are different. Finally, for reasons that are well understood, unused skills wane. My mental arithmetic skills are not only much poorer than they used to be, they are much poorer than they were 10 years ago when I taught general chemistry. There was a sharp number sense that came with head and hand skills that, for me at least, does not seem necessary for head and machine tasks. In summary, machines make the thinking process different and, therefore, make the people using them different. There are very real limits to this. All of us would be "better" if we knew al of the knowledge available in our libraries. The existence of knowledge in the world does not in and of itself enhance problem solving. If an internist is always looking up potassium, then my guess is that many of her/his patients die "out of balance." There are some things one needs to know. To use Donald Norman's jargon, there is some knowledge we need to "have in our head" and not just "in the world." I have little respect for colleagues immersed in a complex task who say 'there's software to do that' but have no idea of the software, what it does, or what it means. A professional knows what the software does at more than a glib, cocktail party level. QUESTION 2 ?? If STUDENTS are not to use the software which is now ?? available - spreadsheets, word processors and existing CAI, ?? what should they be doing? Interfacing experiments makes a great deal of sense to teach. There is no problem in teaching (rather in requiring the use of) a modern word processor. It doesn't write for you -- it helps you to write. More important, it handles the technical aspects of writing. Creating new, clear thoughts is still the task of the writer and not the software. Writing with LATEX is something you do when you don't own or can't access a good $1K machine with $200 worth of software. (Yes, that was a shot.) Spreadsheets are a different matter. For spreadsheets, there are opportunities for: a. creating cell formulae b. entering data into templates It is a general sense that most work today focuses on the former. My sense is that not only is the latter OK, it's good -- something to be preferred instead of disdained. Sorry, I don't use a hand calculator to check the arithmetic outputted from MacInTax. Analyzing data with graphics programs makes sense. Creating problem sets where different analyses give different results also makes sense. Using different approaches within software packages is probably the best way to teach data analysis that we have available today. CAI is an entirely different matter. If the CAI is drill and practice oriented -- say aimed at making the student a better balancer of chemical equations -- then the time is mostly wasted. Wasted! The kind of CAI that makes the most sense is the stuff that comes with the software package teaching you how to use that package. So far, the considerable time I have spent learning to use Internet has not paid off. Phones and fax machines are still ahead. Internet is catching up. ?? QUESTION 3 ?? a. Are you saying that students don't really need to know ?? how to solve gas law problems, mole problems, naming ?? compounds and writing formulas, because we have computers ?? that can do this for us? If we really understand ?? something, we should be able to use our knowledge and apply ?? it (to solving problems). ?? b. Should children be taught to add, subtract, multiply and ?? divide? After all, we have calculators which can do this ?? for us. Understanding is a word with the kind of definition that amounts to no definition. Here is an official definition of "understand": (Webster's Unabridged) "to apprehend or comprehend; to know or grasp the meaning, import, intention, or motive of; to perceive or discern the meaning of; as, to UNDERSTAND a problem, an argument, an oracle, a secret sign, indistinct speech, etc." What does it mean to UNDERSTAND a mole problem? Two ideas underpin mole problems: conservation of atoms, and (almost) constant mass of atoms. At one level, a person can parrot that back. At another level, they can know that these two ideas imply that a set of mathematical relationships can be written to express the ideas. At a quite different level, one can transform those ideas into mathematical rules, and take a set of numbers (or data) to predict other numbers. Creating spreadsheet formulae amounts to one step beyond the latter. A prepared spreadsheet (a template) can do ALL of the crunching for a general chemistry student. A question that remains is "what must a teacher do to enable the learner be able to use the spreadsheet template appropriately." That is, how much head and calculator instead of head and spreadsheet work is appropriate in order to make use of the template effectively? The answer lies somewhere between solving no stoichiometry problems at all and solving any stoichiometry problem that the spreadsheet might be capable of solving. I suspect the equilibrium position lies to the left, toward the no crunching side. Understanding certainly does not include writing cell formulas -- that is not chemistry, even though ever chemist respects it and knows that it takes a very competent chemist to do it or to team with someone who does it. On the other hand, if a spreadsheet is a tool for chemists and you want to be creative, then you need to be able to write cell formulae or otherwise instruct a spreadsheet. Even though writing spreadsheet templates is not a chemist's business, it is probably something most chemists ultimately want to know. It is hard to say how long that skill will be important, but one suspects that it is not long lived. How to design a balance of approaches and topics in teaching chemistry remains an unanswered question. Teachers who spend much of their time on crunching as was spent ten years ago clearly are on the wrong path. That is too much time to spend on head and calculator crunching. I doubt, however, that I successfully can cover conservation of atoms and conservation of mass in just one lecture period. The message can be transmitted in seconds, but it takes days to receive. The ideas must be tied to other ideas within the student in order for reception to occur. I admit to having used some functions from Mathematica to crunch for me that I have no idea either what they did or how they did it. The result was judged on the basis of chemical sense -- not mathematical sense. Black boxes used to be very scary. The more one uses them, the less scary they are. THE MAIN THEME OF THIS PAPER IS THAT CHEMISTRY TEACHERS NEED TO SPEND A GREAT DEAL OF TIME LEARNING ABOUT WHAT MODERN TOOLS WILL DO FOR THEM AS INTELLECTUAL PARTNERS. IF YOU KNOW WHAT THEY CAN DO, YOU HAVE A BETTER SENSE OF WHAT TO TEACH ABOUT USING THEM. MANY OF THE DISCUSSIONS IN THE FIRST PHASE OF THIS CONFERENCE SUPPORT THAT NOTION! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 12:48:01 -0500 From: david brooks Subject: Re: Short Questions for Paper 9 In-Reply-To: <01H0AJRMYKEO002BT3@crcvms.unl.edu> from "Carolyn Sweeney Judd" at Jul 8, 93 07:58:47 am > > Great food for thought found in your paper! Can you elaborate on the > following excerpt from your paper: > > The currently available > >programs, the successors to those distributed on the > >ChemSource CD-ROMs, will check your chemistry at that level. > What are these successors? > > Carolyn S. Judd > Central College, Houston Community College System > 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 > 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu > When it is born, ChemSource is going to be one of the largest, heaviest babies ever. It is many months overdue. Connected with ChemSource are two other tools -- Chemistry Lesson Planning and Chemistry Laboratory Assistant. The CLA tool has the abilit to create and modify recipes for preparing solution and chemicals used by students. Look for CehmSource in December, 1993. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 14:48:00 CDT From: "J.J. Lagowski" Subject: paper 5 late The discussions concerning SQUALOR and inorganic qualitative analysis seem to suggest that these laboratory activities are supposed to reflect the way "real chemists" do analysis. The other point of view is that they represent an interesting way to learn some descriptive chemistry (which everyone agrees as dead boring) and it has nothing to do with what "real chemists" do, rather it is a way of learning what "real chemists" know. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 17:17:24 -0500 From: John Woolcock Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Short Questions >Many years back, a group at UCLA made a step in this direction >by publishing a book in which spreadsheets formulae were given >to handle essentially all of the computations used in an >introductory biochemistry course for majors. I would cite the >book, but it disappeared from my bookshelf. The book you remember is entitled "Dynamic Models in Biochemistry" by Atkinson, Clarke and Rees. There are two others: "Dynamic Models in Chemistry" and "Dynamic Models in Physics". Available from N. Simonson & Co., Marina del Rey, CA Telephone: (213) 301-2847. These come with disks for Mac or PC which contain the spreadsheet templates. The text has tutorials on how students can create their own templates including the cell formulas for stoichiometry, kinetics, etc. However, we tend to only ask our students to do what we have already done ourselves. I will never use this in my courses until I have gone through it myself. This takes time that I don't have so it has been sitting on my shelf for 2 years! You are absolutely correct that one of the biggest impediments to the implementation of any teaching strategy is finding "faculty development time" to learn to use it. John Woolcock Chemistry Department Indiana University of PA WOOLCOCK@grove.iup.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 00:17:28 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper9 - questions Questions: 1. Some of us have considerable investments in IBM PC type machines and can't or won't switch especially since windows makes work so easy. Is there a software package for the PC market that is equivalent to HyperCard? 2. We who are participating in this conference have various levels of computer skills. I doubt that I could write a tutorial program for student use without spending allot of time and energy. Nevertheless I firmly believe that computers should be used extensively in undergraduate instruction. I know that I am not alone but sometimes I feel isolated when I hear colleagues remark that the only way a student learns about graphing is with a pencil and paper. How do we effectively get the message out that more can be learned by using a computer effectively? I think that there is a need to see more articles in J.Chem Ed. on this subject. Especially one on developing the idea of using computers as tools for learning and drill. 3. What does one do with/to colleagues who refuse to use software even when it is available? Part of the problem is, as you pointed out, that there is a steep learning curve for the novice and there are many novice chemistry faculty out there, those who can't or won't even learn word processing. Another part is that there is a tradition of poor quality CAI programs from the past that has left a bad impression on established teachers. There just doesn't seem to be enough experience at the grass roots level to make a significant difference yet. Perhaps a critical mass of interested faculty needs to be developed before substantial change can occur. 4. Another problem that I see as inhibiting the spread of computer usage is the poor reception given to development of learning tools and innovative curricula when evaluating a young faculty member for promotion or tenure. There is a need to recognize that research into and development of CAI software is an appropriate activity for faculty. If I do pedagogical research then it is OK because I'm a woman or because I teach at a small school and there isn't much else to do. If I do research in QM or MD or Modeling then it's just theory and who believes that anyway. It's a no win situation with many students feeling that they are incapable of participating. How can we present our computer expertise especially to novice students so that they do not feel intimidated by it all and go off to study history or criminal justice? Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 Roszieli@UBVMS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 07:05:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 9 : Short Questions James Kaput uses the term "cognative technology" to label those constructed tools and technologies that help us think and communicate better that we could without them. The most important of those historically are probably writing, arabic numerals, printing, symbolic notation, and now, perhaps, computers. These technologies are empowering; for example, any child using arabic numerals today can perform arithemitic tasks that a senator of ancient Rome could not. Do you feel that the computer will eventually, say in 10 or 20 years, develop into a cognative technology at that level of importance? Consider how we build writing and mathematics into our education systems continuously from day one. Will we someday grow up with computers as we all grow up with mathematics? To some extent it is already happening in some school systems, where 5-6 graders are doing most of their "serious" writing on computers. (Kids pick this sort of thing up much faster than adults and teachers). In 5 years these kids will be in high school and in 10 years in college. What must we do to prepare for them? Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 12:13:43 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper10 questions Questions Paper 10 1. How much math and pchem (courses/semester hours) do the students take prior to this course? 2. What windows development tool is used to develop hyperbook? (Boy would I like to work on a pchem HyperBook project) 3. I would like to have an english copy of the course topics for the pchem course(s) that is(are) prerequisite to this course. 4. I am currently writing up a Mathcad exercise for item B1 of your paper. It should be ready by mid August. My students enjoy working this way to learn. they learn more and they learn more deeply. 5. I think that my students would enjoy the oscillating kinetics experiment. Would you pass on one or two english references to get me started. 6. What is the source of data for figures 8, 9, & 10. 7. For figure 11, can students rotate and view it from different angles. Diagrams of this type are very useful pedagogically. Where does one get a copy of SURFER? Theresa Julia Zielinski Chemistry Department Niagara University Niagara University NY 14109 Roszieli@ubvms ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 11:56:58 -0500 From: david brooks Subject: Re: Paper 9 : Short Questions In-Reply-To: <01H0BV0O7RTS002Q7Z@crcvms.unl.edu> from "to2" at Jul 9, 93 07:05:00 am Try reading "Cognitive Artifacts" by Donald Norman in Designing Interaction, J. M. Carroll, ed., Cambridge, Cambridge, ISBN 0-521-40921-7 pbk, 1991, pp. 17-38. >> Do you feel that the computer will eventually, say in 10 >> or 20 years, develop into a cognative technology at that >> level of importance? The time scale is off. In our world, it already has. When I came to Nebraska, it was because they would support TA training using video. Video was too big a deal for the place I left in 1973. Hard to imagine, isn't it. Early on during the intervening 20 years, the rate of home sales of player recorders reached 1 million units per month. >> Will we someday grow up with computers as we all grow up >> with mathematics? Yes. >> What must we do to prepare for them? Bring ourselves up to speed first. Ask for a leave! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 11:58:26 -0500 From: david brooks Subject: Re: paper9 - questions In-Reply-To: <01H0BHCZWZDU002ML0@crcvms.unl.edu> from "theresa Julia Zielinski" at Jul 9, 93 00:17:28 am >>Is there a software package for the PC market that is >> equivalent to HyperCard? 1. Toolbook by Asymmetrix PO Box 40419, Bellevue WA 206- 637-1600 is the best. There are two that advertise cross platform features. Plus has been around for several years. Windowcraft just came out. >> How do we effectively get the message out that more can >> be learned by using a computer effectively? I think that >> there is a need to see more articles in J. Chem Ed. on >> this subject. Especially one on developing the idea of >> using computers as tools for learning and drill. 2. Most CAI is designed to pit students against machines -- to impart the machine's skill to the student. Poor strategy -- the learners always lose. (When they are recognizing pictures, they may operate at 100 MIPS, but when they're solving mole problems, they can't.) The computer is my friend; it is my main tool. Teach me how to use the tool. >> What does one do with/to colleagues who refuse to use >> software even when it is available? 3. Worry about ourselves; let someone else worry about our colleagues. >>..the poor reception given to development of learning >> tools and innovative curricula when evaluating a young >> faculty member for promotion or tenure. 4.. There are several avenues to publication that can be counted just the same as tradition work. J. Chem. Educ. software is one. There are 10-15 reviewed publications put out by the ISTE (International Society for Technology in Education), 800-336-5191. Finally, traditional publications such as J. Chem. Educ., J. Research in Sci. Tchg, J. Coll. Sci. Tchg., etc., regularly publish contributions of this nature. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 10:10:53 PDT From: David Green Subject: Re: spreadsheets In-Reply-To: ; from "John Woolcock" at Jul 8, 93 5:17 pm > > >Many years back, a group at UCLA made a step in this direction > >by publishing a book in which spreadsheets formulae were given > >to handle essentially all of the computations used in an > >introductory biochemistry course for majors. I would cite the > >book, but it disappeared from my bookshelf. > > The book you remember is entitled "Dynamic Models in Biochemistry" by Atkinson > Clarke and Rees. There are two others: "Dynamic Models in Chemistry" and > "Dynamic Models in Physics". Available from N. Simonson & Co., Marina del Rey, > CA Telephone: (213) 301-2847. These come with disks for Mac or PC which contai > the spreadsheet templates. The text has tutorials on how students can create > their own templates including the cell formulas for stoichiometry, kinetics, > etc. > > > John Woolcock > Chemistry Department > Indiana University of PA > WOOLCOCK@grove.iup.edu > Another book with spreadsheet templates that I have used a few from is "Concepts and Calculations in Analytical Chemistry, a Spreadsheet Approach", by Henry Freiser, CRC press. It covers stoich, equilibrium, activity, and other things. The sheets are written for QPro for DOS but are very easily converted to 1-2-3, Excel, and QPro for Windows. The student will need to have a little prowess on the spreadsheet to do the problems. David Green Natural Science Division Pepperdine University Malibu CA dgreen@pepvax.bitnet dgreen@pepvax.pepperdine.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 14:11:00 EDT From: "Peter Gold, Penn State U. (814) 865-7694" Subject: Re: spreadsheets In-Reply-To: DGREEN AT PEPVAX.BITNET -- Fri, 9 Jul 1993 10:10:53 PDT Yet another book on using spreadsheets to solve chemistry problems is O. J. Parker and Gary L. Breneman, "Spreadsheet Chemistry" (Prentice-Hall, 1991). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 11:43:02 -0700 From: Sandra Lamb Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Short Questions For Don, there is a program called HyperBook for the PC that allows you to convert hypercard files to pc readable and useable programs. It is analagous to Hypercard. A good person to talk to about that is Paul Schatz, UWis, he has used it to convert Spectra Deck for the Mac to SpectraBook for the PC. Also, I would be happy to answer any spreadsheet questions. They are very powerful for doing chemistry problems of all types, including reaction kinetics and thermodynamics. I strongly recommend teaching students how to set up their own spreadsheets rather than using a template although there is time involved in teaching students how to handle the spreadsheet software. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 14:56:43 CST From: JOHN GELDER Organization: Oklahoma State University Subject: spreadsheets The phone number for N. Simonson & Co is (310) 301-2847. The area code has changed. Dave Barclay handles the book. He has an e-mail address of 2849430@mcimail.com if you want to go directly to him. John Gelder Department of Chemistry Oklahoma State University Stillwater, OK 74078 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 09:46:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Discussion of Paper 10 It is now 9:48 EST on Friday, July 9,1993 Short Questions for Paper 10 should be sent to CHEMCONF during this day. Discussion of this paper will not begin for several weeks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 09:58:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 10 - Short Questions PAPER 10 - SHORT QUESTIONS PERSONAL COMPUTERS IN TEACHING PHYSICAL CHEMISTRY Aleksei A. Kubasov, Vassilii S.Lyutsarev, Kirill V.Ermakov, Chemical Faculty of Moscow State University, Moscow, Russian Republic. E-MAIL: LASER@mch.chem.msu.su > The advanced course in Physical Chemistry for students of > Chemical Faculty of Moscow State University > Special group of students with profound studying of mathematics > and physical chemistry ... Fundamental course of physical chemistry > for these students ... QUESTION 1 a. How many students are there in this course? b. Are these undergraduate or graduate students? c. If they are undergraduate students, is this the first course in physical chemistry these students have taken, or is this an advanced course? d. How much chemical kinetics have they been taught prior to taking this course? e. How many students are there at Moscow State University? How many undergraduate and graduate chemistry majors? How large a chemistry faculty does the University have? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Reform freshman computer course. QUESTION 2 a. Prior to taking your course, how much of a background in computers do the students have? b. Do all chemistry majors take a freshman computing course? c. What is presently taught in the freshman computing course? d. What computing facilities are available for students generally at Moscow State University? e. What computing facilities are available for students taking your course? Do you have enough computers for the number of students you are teaching? Do students routinely use word processing? Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13676 ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 17:03:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 10 - Short Questions PAPER 10 - SHORT QUESTIONS PERSONAL COMPUTERS IN TEACHING PHYSICAL CHEMISTRY Aleksei A. Kubasov, Vassilii S.Lyutsarev, Kirill V.Ermakov, Chemical Faculty of Moscow State University, Moscow, Russian Republic. E-MAIL: LASER@mch.chem.msu.su > The advanced course in Physical Chemistry for students of > Chemical Faculty of Moscow State University > Special group of students with profound studying of mathematics > and physical chemistry ... Fundamental course of physical chemistry > for these students ... QUESTION 1 a. How many students are there in this course? b. Are these undergraduate or graduate students? c. If they are undergraduate students, is this the first course in physical chemistry these students have taken, or is this an advanced course? d. How much chemical kinetics have they been taught prior to taking this course? e. How many students are there at Moscow State University? How many undergraduate and graduate chemistry majors? How large a chemistry faculty does the university have? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Reform freshman computer course. QUESTION 2 a. Prior to taking your course, how much of a background in computers do the students have? b. Do all chemistry majors take a freshman computing course? c. What is presently taught in the freshman computing course? d. What computing facilities are available for students generally at Moscow State University? e. What computing facilities are available for students taking your course? Do you have enough computers for the number of students you are teaching? Do students routinely use word processing? Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13676 ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 20:51:02 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: paper9 - questions In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 9 Jul 1993 11:58:26 -0500 from >4.. There are several avenues to publication that can be >counted just the same as tradition work. J. Chem. Educ. >software is one. There are 10-15 reviewed publications put >out by the ISTE (International Society for Technology in >Education), 800-336-5191. Finally, traditional publications >such as J. Chem. Educ., J. Research in Sci. Tchg, J. Coll. >Sci. Tchg., etc., regularly publish contributions of this >nature. At most state universities, faculty get demerits for publishing in these journals. Until this attitude changes, we cannot in good conscience that young faculty members publish in this way. Someday maybe. Not now. Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ======================================================================= ANNOUNCEMENT & CORRECTION: Section IV: The simulated potentiometric titration problem set HAS now been ported to the program which is available by anonymous FTP. It is included in version 1.1 of the program, not 1.0 which was first submitted with the paper. Thus, PGEN11ZP.EXE, is the self-extracting zipped version 1.1 of the package, including the potentiometric titration problem. ====================================================================== From: Reed Howald > I have pgen11zp.exe, ... where are the three figures referred to? Since you have pgen11zp.exe, the three figures are included there, PAPRFIG1.GIF, PAPRFIG2.GIF, and PAPRFIG3.GIF Additionally, they are available via FTP from FTP: info.umd.edu Directory: info/Teaching/ChemConference/Paper06 Both GIF and UUE versions are available in this directory. > Using GET PAPER6 FIGURE3 with LISTSERV doesn't work. Copies of the three figures were not initially placed in the listserv filelist. They are currently in place and can be obtained by the above command. ====================================================================== From: Donald Rosenthal > In Section VI >> B. Generation of Statistical Fluctuations about a Value: >> The program uses a function called ErrFactor (relative standard >> deviation). This function returns a statistically generated >> multiplier with a mean value of 1.00 and a standard deviation >> given by the relative standard deviation specified. For >> example, if it is desired to apply a 5 percent fluctuation to a >> given value, the function called is ErrFactor (0.05). The >> function returns a randomly generated value of 1.00 +/- 0.05 >> which is applied as a multiplier to the value one wishes to >> randomize. Thus a multiplier between 0.95 and 1.05 is generated >> approximately 2 of 3 times. Since this follows a normal >> distribution, occasionally one finds the 2 or 3 or 4 sigma >> variation. This produces fluctuations with points which are >> outside the limit (here 5 %) about 1 of 3 times. > In normal unweighted least squares calculations it is implicitly > assumed: > > 1. There is no error in X values, only in Y values. > 2. There is equal probability (0.5) of finding positive and negative > deviations from the true value of Y. > 3. The error in the value of Y is normally distributed (i.e. larger > errors are less probable than smaller errors). > 4. The magnitude of the error in Y is independent of the value of X. > > QUESTION: Does your program generate errors which conform to > conditions 3 and 4? Yes, all conditions including 3. and 4. are satisfied. As indicated in Section VI A., The random number routines were taken from "Microsoft Quickbasic Programmer's Toolbox" by John Clark Craig, Microsoft Press, ISBN 1-1-55615-127-6, p. 353-364. "RandShuffle (key$)" was changed to "RandomizeOn (seed)" to make it both more readable and more like the "Randomize seed" in QuickBasic. "RandNormal! (mean!, stddev!)" was programmed as a function, and changed to "ErrFactor (RelativeStandardDeviation)" with mean value set to 1. and passing the relative standard deviation to the function. In this way if you want to apply a 5% random fluctuation to a given set of values the BASIC syntax is Y = Y * ErrFactor(0.05) The Y values ARE normally distributed with larger errors being less probable than smaller errors. The error produced in Y is independent of the value of X and dependent only upon the relative standard deviation desired. One does need to be careful in selecting the relative standard deviation, because one can expect to see the 2, 3, and 4 sigma variations with the appropriate frequency. > If the program multiplies the true value by a factor, > the error depends upon the value of X. I am not clear what is meant here. The error generated depends upon the value of Y being changed, and the relative standard deviation in Y which is sought. Y's are generated from X values according to the relationships of the particular phenomena. The fluctuations are then applied to the generated values of Y. > There are algorithms which will generate normally > distributed errors which conform to condition 4. I believe this is such an algorithm. The magnitude of the error in Y is independent of the magnitude of X, but is dependent on the magnitude of Y since what is being specified here is the relative standard deviation in Y. ====================================================================== From: Reed Howald > I am concerned about the question Lanzafame raises, how do we give > our students more experience with graphing? I would hope > integrating computers into courses can speed up certain processes, > including data collection and graphing. My question is - Do you > find that using computers gives your students more experience with > graphing, or do you have a net loss of time to spend on fundamentals > like graphing? You raise some very interesting questions. 1. I use the computer to generate unique problems for the individual student to do. The principal advantage is that one can grade the assignments with more confidence that each student is doing his own work and not copying someone else's work and submitting it. What I find from grading the exercises is that many students do not have the ability to work with linear relationships that they think they have. This is quite evident when I have computer generated keys for each data set that a student analyzes graphically. In this respect, I think that it does help to provide a bit more experience and, with answer keys, a better experience. I hand back the answer keys with the graded assignments. 2. I suspect that the use of computers to "speed up certain processes" is a bit more controversial. (I only very reluctantly stopped requiring my students to use a slide rule. ;-) ) I think that there is pedagogic value in manually plotting graphs and putting the best line through the data. While there is the perception (by students and some faculty) that students already have these skills, my experience with these graphical problem sets is that too many students do not. I think there is a lesson to be learned from the high school algebra problem. Here, the practice and drill of algebra and word problems was considered a waste of time. All students had to do was learn the principles. After all, those of us with experience and hindsight could see the few principles whose applications were really quite repetitive. If the student mastered the few principles, they could certainly apply these principles and "do algebra". The result is that all too many high school graduates cannot "do algebra" and of course, there is no point in struggling with menial algebra when doing calculus. The result is sometimes students who cannot take the principles of calculus to a real answer because they cannot "do algebra". I confess that I am bothered when I find that students are using graphing software to process data at the general chemistry level. I believe that the manual processes should be mastered before using a graphing software. If those skills are mastered in the general course, I believe that the software solution can be used profitably by students in later courses. We must keep in mind that most of these problem sets are used with General Chemistry students. After these skills are mastered, I am less concerned with allowing students in Physical Chemistry, for example, to use computers for linear regression and graphing. 3. I guess there is "a net loss of time ... spent on fundamentals like graphing" relative to what could be done using software packages. In my opinion, this is time which must be spent when students do not already have these skills. 4. In our second year analytical course, students learn to calculate regression results from x's, y's, and sums of squares etc. We believe they should learn how to do the basic calculations before using regression programs like black boxes. Too many regression programs do not calculate the errors in the slope and intercept with which the student can propagate the errors in quantities derived from these regression slopes and intercepts. In the analytical course, the computer generated potentiometric titration of an unknown polyprotic acid mixture provides an experience which parallels the mixed phosphate titration which is done in the lab but provides some unique aspects. Here, students can analyze titration curves for acid mixtures which would be difficult to construct in the laboratory with accurately known compositions. This is not a graphing exercise of linear relationships. Further, we take the opportunity to have students analyze the end points using first and second derivatives. This shows what "noise" does to a signal which is differentiated. It vividly explains the sensitivity of the first derivative mode on the auto-titrator. Students are graded on their interpretation of the titration curve and the written laboratory report. The mixed phosphate grade is based on the quantitative results. ====================================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------- | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 11:34:19 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Help - Name of Book Some time in the last week or two a reference was given for a revies , that is, review article about computers in chemical education. I can't find the citation in all the pages of paper that I have accumulated. I would appreciate the title and author again. Thank you. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 11:10:01 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper 6 discussion Paper 6 discussion errors Rosenthal's question and answer? >4. The magnitude of the error in Y is independent of the value of X Radioactive decay is a good example of data where plotting a logarithm of a measure quantity is useful. It is included as an example in the program. However one glance at Figure 2 shows immediately that this is not experimental data. The program has put in fluctuations, but not so that the proportional error increases at later times, when the count is low and statistical fluctuations get worse. This problem is what Rosenthal apparently had in mind when he said > If the program multiplies the true value by a factor, > the error depends upon the value of X. Not really. However the error should depend upon the value of Y, and in this case and many others, the error does not depend linearly on Y as is assumed by this method of calculation (and shown in Lanzaframe's examples). Random errors in practice are more complicated than either of the easy assumptions: random error is independent of Y or random fractional error is independent of Y. I strongly believe in giving students experimental data to work with in order to avoid data which gives a grossly incorrect idea about the nature of random errors (as this does, at least in this example). To make a program like Lanzaframe's useable the error generation subroutines must be made more complex. Perhaps three percentage errors could be specified, and three random numbers generated to give E1, E2, and E3 errors. Then the calculated Y value could be Y(true) * (1+E1) + sqrt(Y(true) * (1 + E2) + E3. We are fortunate in this case to have the source code in Quickbasic available, so a programmer can make the required corrections and try the revised program before giving it to students. Many good commercial programs are unfortunately unusable because corrections like this are impossible. I strongly agree students need more practice with graphing. I am somewhat concerned with students copying answers from other students. That's one reason I like interfaced laboratories, students can get lots of data to graph which is unique. I disagree with Lanzaframe on the value of denying freshman chemistry students the use of graphing programs. We give our students at this level a program (B4) which does spreadsheet type calculations and does graphing. If you want (as I do) to have students test alternate ways to graph one set of data, they really need the speed of computer graphing. I can see real value in Lanzaframe's program in assigning even more graphing problems to our students. However before I will use it the treatment of random errors must be improved so that the data would at least be indistinguishable from real data. And if we are to assign ten times as many problems as Lanzaframe does, I think we would have to abandon hand grading. The computer that assigns the problems will have to do the grading also. I personally would also need the capability of continually adding new types of problems to the system. I know what I need in the way of computer assisted instruction, and I find that it is not yet available. But I may be a minority of one. I would like to know what other conference participants think. Sincerely Reed Howald "uchrh@earth.oscs.montana.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 14:32:39 CDT From: "GARY L. BERTRAND" Subject: Re: paper 6 discussion In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 12 Jul 1993 11:10:01 MDT from Regarding Least Squares Regression I think that both comments on Rosenthal's question are missing the point. The experimental uncertainty is a function of the experiments. Sometimes the uncer tainty in Y is independent of Y (which is assumed by normal unweighted regressi on), sometimes the error is directly proportional to Y as in a constant % error (unweighted least squares treats this properly if log(Y) is linear with X), and sometimes the relationship is more complex (proportional to sqrt(Y) for counting). To deal properly with these situations, one must not only under- stand the experiment, but weighting procedures as well. Joe Noggle's EasyFit Program and Discussion is the best treatment I've seen. ************************************************************************* * GARY L. BERTRAND, DEPT OF CHEMISTRY, UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-ROLLA * * ROLLA, MO 65401. (314)-341-4441 * * BITNET- GBERT@UMRVMB INTERNET- GBERT@UMRVMB.UMR.EDU * * "I NEVER WANTED TO BE FAMOUS, I JUST WANTED TO BE GREAT." RAY CHARLES * ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 13:10:09 -0700 From: Stephen Lower Subject: Re: Paper 6 Reply to Short Questions >2. I suspect that the use of computers to "speed up certain processes" > is a bit more controversial. (I only very reluctantly stopped > requiring my students to use a slide rule. ;-) ) I think that > there is pedagogic value in manually plotting graphs and putting the > best line through the data. [Reed Howald] ... maybe once or twice in one's lifetime, but let's face it: manual plotting, like manual titration, is fast ceasing to be a valued skill. Far better, in my view, to spend the time on getting students to actively think about and interpret graphs; that's one reason why I make my students work with log-concentration vs. pH graphs, for example. The idea that plodding manual operations (such as taking lecture notes) somehow enhances learning has a certain appeal, particularly to those of us who had to do things the old way, but it does not seem to be very well supported by the research literature. ---------- Steve Lower - Vancouver, Canada Dept of Chemistry - Simon Fraser University - Burnaby BC V5A 1S6 lower@sfu.ca 604-291-3353 FAX: 604-291-3765 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 16:23:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 6 - Discussion on Least Squares and Plotting > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 09:18:40 EDT > From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" > Subject: Paper 6 Reply to Short Questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: Donald Rosenthal > In normal unweighted least squares calculations it is implicitly > assumed: > > 1. There is no error in X values, only in Y values. > 2. There is equal probability (0.5) of finding positive and negative > deviations from the true value of Y. > 3. The error in the value of Y is normally distributed (i.e. larger > errors are less probable than smaller errors). > 4. The magnitude of the error in Y is independent of the value of X. > > QUESTION: Does your program generate errors which conform to > conditions 3 and 4? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > YOUR ANSWER > Y = Y * ErrFactor(0.05) *************************************** > The Y values ARE normally distributed with larger errors being less > probable than smaller errors. The error produced in Y is independent > of the value of X and dependent only upon the RELATIVE standard > deviation desired. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >MY STATEMENT > If the program multiplies the true value by a factor, > the error depends upon the value of X. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > YOUR RESPONSE > I am not clear what is meant here. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- * Suppose the student performs an experiment on Temperature Conversion * where different temperatures are measured using both Fahrenheit and * Celsius thermometers or such measurements are simulated. (See * Section III-A of your paper. An unweighted linear least squares * fit of the equation: F = k C + a * where F = Fahrenheit temperature C = Celsius temperature k = the slope (theoretically 1.8) a = the y intercept (theoretically 32) * assumes NO ERROR in Celsius temperature readings, and that the * error in Fahrenheit temperature readings does not depend upon * the Fahrenheit temperature (perhaps it would be + or - 0.1 Fahrenheit * degrees with a reasonably good thermometer) * I am not certain what your equation Y = Y * ErrFactor(0.05) * means, but I assume it means that the error in Y (Fahrenheit) would * be zero when Y = 0 F and 100 times larger (on the average) when * Y = 100 F as compared to when Y = 1 F. IS THIS CORRECT? * If not, I don't understand Y = Y * ErrFactor(0.05). * If what I say above is true, then the equation should be fitted by * a WEIGHTED rather than an UNWEIGHTED least squares calculation. * IF THE EQUATION FITTED IS: * LOG Y = A X + B * THEN Y = Y * ErrFactor will result in errors in LOG Y (but not Y) * which are independent of LOG Y. Thus, what you did * is appropriate for two of your examples (the LOG ACTIVITY * and LOG Vapor Pressure fits). ====================================================================== * In your response to Reed Howald you indicate: > 1. I use the computer to generate unique problems for the individual student to do. * Good > 2. I think that there is pedagogic value in manually plotting graphs > and putting the best line through the data. * I tend to agree that freshmen should perform one or two plots by * hand. I'm not certain that David Brooks (Paper 9) would agree. > I confess that I am bothered when I find that students are using > graphing software to process data at the general chemistry level. * When I taught freshmen general chemistry lab, I had the students * prepare manual plots AND use linear least squares and plotting * programs (see Paper 1 and my article in Spring 1992 Computer in * Chemical Education Newsletter). Much more can be learned from the * statistics obtained from linear least squares calculations. * Comparing manual plots with what computers can do is instructive. * Of course, what you do will depend on the availability of * computers. Should practicing engineers and scientists be doing * manual plots or using least squares and plotting software? * For some undergraduates the chemistry laboratory course may be the * only laboratory course the student takes. What should the student * learn from such a course? > 4. In our second year analytical course, students learn to calculate > regression results from x's, y's, and sums of squares etc. We > believe they should learn how to do the basic calculations before > using regression programs like black boxes. * I don't agree with this. Such calculations are laborious. In my * opinion a student's time is much better spent trying to understand * the results of least squares calculations. Students who really want * to understand the calculations should take a course in statistics. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 17:22:43 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Paper 6 Reply to Short Questions >>2. I suspect that the use of computers to "speed up certain processes" >> is a bit more controversial. (I only very reluctantly stopped >> requiring my students to use a slide rule. ;-) ) I think that >> there is pedagogic value in manually plotting graphs and putting the >> best line through the data. [Reed Howald] >... maybe once or twice in one's lifetime, but let's face it: >manual plotting, like manual titration, is fast ceasing to be >a valued skill. Far better, in my view, to spend the time on >getting students to actively think about and interpret graphs; >that's one reason why I make my students work with log-concentration >vs. pH graphs, for example. The idea that plodding manual operations >(such as taking lecture notes) somehow enhances learning has a certain >appeal, particularly to those of us who had to do things the old way, >but it does not seem to be very well supported by the research literature. >[Steve Lower - Vancouver, Canada] This points out a weakness that so many of us share. We lack information on the effectiveness of our teaching strategies. It may be time for us to investigate the use of assessment as an aid to instruction. There are many quick and effective strategies that would only take two or three minutes to do in a class and can be randomly or more carefully examined to see if the students have 'gotten it' whatever it may be. In the mean time we should not redo the sliderule/calculator wars into a manual.plotting/computer.plotting graphgate. You know which will win, its just a matter of time. The real issue as Steve points out is how the students are thinking about the printed word or the pretty graph. We need to develop a critical attitude in our students. This also requires an understanding of their developmental levels. Some skills cannot be learned at early developmental levels. Computer images and nice looking graphs prepared with a minimum of tedium fosters interest and learning. My own experience in PChem shows that students learn more effectively about the significance of their graphs when they are using the best technology that I can offer them for preparing their graphs. This is true for gen chem too. Unfortunately, so many gen chem labs are not equipped to offer this way to learn. This is an area where we all can help by pushing for more computers for the 1st year chem. students. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 20:08:54 -0500 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 6 Reply to Short Questions I agree completely with Theresa, assesment of our students is paramount. This is particularly true at smaller (or less well funded) schools where the cost of such technology is not trivial. If the school invests in the equipment there should be an assurance that educational quality improves. George Long Indiana Univ. Of PA GRLONG@grove.iup.edu(or iup.bitnet) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 21:10:48 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Help request - reference I found the reference that I thought was sent out through this list. You all may be interested if you haven't heard of it yet. "Computational Chemistry in the Undergraduate Curriculum" by Roger L. DeKock (Calvin College), Jeffry D. Madura (University of South Alabama), Frank Rioux (St. John's University), and Joseph Casanova (California State University at Los Angeles). in Volume 4 of REVIEWS IN COMPUTATIONAL CHEMISTRY 1993 ed by K.B. Lipkowitz (IUPUI) and Donald B. Boyd (Lilly Research Laboratories). ISBN 1-56081-620-1 VCH Publishers, Inc. 303 NW 12th AVE Deerfield Beach, Florida 33442 tel: 800-367-8247 price $75 information obtained from the mail exploder : chemistry@osc.edu - a computational chemistry list. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 22:20:45 EDT From: Sherman Henzel Subject: Maual graphing and manual titrations Steve Lower wrote that manual graphing and manual titrations are no longer performed. I teach Analytical Chemistry at MCC and have occasion to visit many laboratories with my students. They have the same attitude toward titrations that Steve Lower does. They think that when to industry they will never do another (manual) titration again. They are always surprised to find how many titrations are still done manually. While there may be few if any graphs being done by hand, there are many titrations still being done that way! ___________________________________________________________ | Sherman Henzel Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5124 | | Internet: shenzel@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 01:08:29 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Paper 6 Reply to some of Monday's Discussion ###################################################################### REGARDING ERRORS GENERATED IN THE DATA: Judging from some of the comments and discussion thus far, this paper has not been a masterpiece of clarity: 1. My goal was simply to provide some computer generated data as exercises for students--principally in General Chemistry. 2. These sets currently represent four or five graphical problems for students to do. This should not be an undue burden for manual analysis. It should be simple review for most students, but too frequently turns out to be otherwise. 3. To provide a bit of realism, I decided to produce some scatter in the data rather than present perfectly linear data where any two data points would have sufficed. 4. I chose to apply normally distributed scatter in the Y values which would correspond to relative standard deviations of the order of a few percent. 5. Students are told that there is scatter in the points which is meant to simulate errors which might be made in collecting the data. They are asked to do the best they can to determine the slopes and intercepts characterizing the data. They are then asked to use these slopes and intercepts to answer some questions about the phenomena they have just characterized. ###################################################################### Reed Howald's comments on radioactive decay errors: > The program has put in fluctuations, but not so that the > proportional error increases at later times, when the count is low > and statistical fluctuations get worse. I agree with Reed Howald that the error in my radioactive decay problem is not realistically distributed, but I'm not sure that many freshmen can tell the difference. The scatter in Figure 2 represents about a one percent relative standard deviation in the log (Activity). If I recall correctly, standard deviations in radioactive measurements varies with approximately the square root of the counts. Thus for Figure 2, the higher counts should show about a one percent deviation in the Activity (NOT the log (Activity) ) and about a three percent deviation in the Activity for the lower counts. Since the program has been written modularly, and I have tried produce readable code, it should be relatively easy to modify the program to suit individual tastes. ###################################################################### >From Steve Lower: >> I think that there is pedagogic value in manually plotting graphs >> and putting the best line through the data. > ... maybe once or twice in one's lifetime, but let's face it: > manual plotting, like manual titration, is fast ceasing to be a > valued skill. ..... The idea that plodding manual operations (such > as taking lecture notes) somehow enhances learning has a certain > appeal, particularly to those of us who had to do things the old > way, but it does not seem to be very well supported by the research > literature. It seems to me that the students I work with require more than once or twice in a lifetime to understand what they are doing. It is not clear to me that this once or twice in a lifetime approach has not contributed to our students' inability to do algebra. How many have noticed the increase in very basic algebra which has been added to general chemistry texts to compensate for student's lack of facility with algebra. I think it is important to stress fundamentals. Yes, even manual titrations. Many of our chemical technology students still find they can earn a living with these antiquated skills. Not every small company can afford auto titrators, and not every large company will dedicate one for every occasional titration. ###################################################################### From: Donald Rosenthal > Suppose the student performs an experiment on Temperature > Conversion where different temperatures are measured using both > Fahrenheit and Celsius thermometers or such measurements are > simulated. (See Section III-A of your paper. An unweighted linear > least squares fit of the equation: F = k C + a where, > F = Fahrenheit temperature > C = Celsius temperature > k = the slope (theoretically 1.8) > a = the y intercept (theoretically 32) > assumes NO ERROR in Celsius temperature readings, and that the > error in Fahrenheit temperature readings does not depend upon the > Fahrenheit temperature (perhaps it would be + or - 0.1 Fahrenheit > degrees with a reasonably good thermometer) I am not certain what > your equation Y = Y * ErrFactor(0.05) means, but I assume it means > that the error in Y (Fahrenheit) would be zero when Y = 0 F and 100 > times larger (on the average) when Y = 100 F as compared to when > Y = 1 F. IS THIS CORRECT? YES! > If what I say above is true, then the equation should be fitted by > a WEIGHTED rather than an UNWEIGHTED least squares calculation. Point taken. >> In our second year analytical course, students learn to calculate >> regression results from x's, y's, and sums of squares etc. We >> believe they should learn how to do the basic calculations before >> using regression programs like black boxes. > I don't agree with this. Such calculations are laborious. In my > opinion a student's time is much better spent trying to understand > the results of least squares calculations. Students who really want > to understand the calculations should take a course in statistics. Our students do not have a statistics course available which is appropriate for science students. We have used Harris and Kratochvil in the laboratory and "Fundamentals of Analytical Chemistry" by Skoog and West from 3rd edition through the current 6th edition. They have always had (in my opinion) an excellent presentation of statistics for the analytical student including confidence limits, propagation of errors in calculations, and linear regression with errors in slopes and intercepts (calculated from the formulas involving sums of squares etc.). Harris and Kratochvil extend this with the equation for calculating the error resulting from applying a calibration curve to an unknown. This formula is presented in the text from the sums derived for the regression calculation. I think it is instructive to look at how the terms in this equation relate to the uncertainty in the quantity derived from the calibration curve. I believe that, while somewhat laborious, these calculations are worth the effort and provide the student with a good basic understanding of statistics. These calculations do lend themselves rather nicely to using a spreadsheet as a template for the calculations. We have experimented with this approach without as much success as we would like. It is probably worth some additional effort. ###################################################################### From: theresa Julia Zielinski > We lack information on the effectiveness of our teaching > strategies. It may be time for us to investigate the use of > assessment as an aid to instruction. There are many quick and > effective strategies that would only take two or three > minutes to do in a class and can be randomly or more carefully > examined to see if the students have 'gotten it' whatever it > may be. I would be interested in an example or two of what you have in mind here. ###################################################################### ----------------------------------------------------------- | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 05:15:43 -0400 From: ALEX@SUYARS.BITNET Dear networkers, I need an advice or a kind of urgent help to find addresses of chemicists in Japan , working on the aromatic nitrogen containing polyfunctional compounds. I am from Yaroslavl university (Russia) and have an APPORTUNITY WITH ALL NESESSARY FUNDING TO SPEND UP TO 3 MONTHES IN JAPAN (university,firm any chemical institution) as a visiting scientiest Thanksin advance for any help an advices, Dr. Vladimir Orlov Biological depertament ,Yaroslavl University.Russia. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 09:36:22 MCK From: Alex Rouss Subject: Need help to communicate with Japan chemistry. I need an advise or a kind of support to find a way to start communication with Japan chemicists, firm or academic, interested in cooperation with Yaroslavl University, Russia. Our scient. interests - organic sinthesys and reaction ability models for nitrogen containing polyfunctional aromatic compounds. I have a financial support for approximately 3 month full accomodation in Japan as a visiting scientist. Thanks in advance for any kind of help. Dr. Vladimir Orlov Biological Departament Yaroslavl University Russia. temp.e-mail: alex@suyars.bitnet alex@icn.yars.free.msk.su ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 09:12:09 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Paper 6 Reply: The error of my errors. From: Donald Rosenthal RECALL: > ...I am not certain what > your equation Y = Y * ErrFactor(0.05) means, but I assume it means > that the error in Y (Fahrenheit) would be zero when Y = 0 F and 100 > times larger (on the average) when Y = 100 F as compared to when > Y = 1 F. IS THIS CORRECT? YES! > If what I say above is true, then the equation should be fitted by > a WEIGHTED rather than an UNWEIGHTED least squares calculation. Point taken. ADDITIONALLY: > IF THE EQUATION FITTED IS: > LOG Y = A X + B > THEN Y = Y * ErrFactor will result in errors in LOG Y (but not Y) > which are independent of LOG Y. Thus, what you did > is appropriate for two of your examples (the LOG ACTIVITY > and LOG Vapor Pressure fits). Actually, this is not "correctly" done either. In the LOG ACTIVITY and LN Vapor Pressure cases, the fluctuations were created in the logs of the quantities not in the Y values before the log was taken. I began playing with the idea of generating graphs for students almost ten years ago and reconstructing the choices made has been a bit slow to return. (The joys of being one of the old of which Steve Lower speaks.) As I indicated, the goal was simply to generate unique problem sets for students, the answers to which were available to the instructor for grading. I further indicated that the fluctuation in the data was introduced to provide some realism. On further reflection, the reason for generating the errors in the WAY that I did was to help insure that the student saw the line as averaging the fluctuations in the data points. Once the "best" line is placed, the line represents the data and the line should be used to determine the slope and intercept. Students often have a tendency to to draw a line through the points, and then use two of the data points to determine the slope and intercept (totally ignoring the line). I played with the fluctuations to produce points which would appear linear, but for which the line would clearly be the best representation of the data. I did not want the student to luck into the correct answer by ignoring the line and choosing two points to represent all of the data. This was best achieved by introducing a few percent relative standard deviation in the Y values of the graph. In the example of the radioactive decay, the standard deviation in the Activity varies approximately as the square root of the Activity. By the time one takes the log of the Activity, the fluctuation begins to disappear in most cases except those of very low Activity. Thus, the error was chosen to provide data which would require the student to think about the differences between the data and the line and the fact the "least squares" was a mathematical way (through calculus) of selecting the slope and intercept to minimize the "squares" of the error produced by the placement of the line. In introducing the assignments, I discuss the differences between the "least squares" calculation from computer or calculator, and this "eye-ball least squares" that they are being asked to do. I hope in this way to give them a better appreciation of what the calculator is doing. The result is "error" in the error for pedagogic reasons. ----------------------------------------------------------- | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 08:46:24 -0500 From: aubrey mcintosh Subject: Archives An associate has a system to produce one-off CD-ROMs in final testing. How much info is in the Chemconf archive? (a CD-ROM will hold approximately 600 Mb) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 09:08:50 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper 6 discussion evaluation >We need to evaluate our teaching methods >There are quick and easy methods The schools of education spend a lot of time and effort on evaluation without producing anything which I can respect scientifically. It is nice to see the output of student questionaires as in paper 7. There is however a placebo effect here. Students will respond favorably to the teacher's enthusiasm in trying something new whether or not it is an improvement. Is there any method which is reasonably accurate and reasonably reliable for evaluating a teaching method? I think there is one. It is machine graded multiple (15) choice examinations with partial credit. I am firmly opposed to the use of standard 5 choice examinations. They either encourage quessing, or else like the ACS tests in physical chemistry they are tricky, giving lower scores to students who know a little instead of nothing. However if one provides 15 answers to choose from the situation is quite different. Guessing is not encouraged. And commonly chosen wrong answers can be awarded partial credit, just like we would do if we could do accurate hand grading for large classes. If one has a large selection of good 15 answer questions on a particular topic, one could get reliable measures of performance on a topic from different sections, different years, and different schools. This type of exam question was developed by Dr. B. P. Mundy, Dr. A. C. Craig, and myself in 1989. I will show you a 10 choice example from 1991: 10. (7 points) Determine the empirical formula of the compound with the following percentage composition: 52.14% C, 13.13% H, and 34.73% O. a. CHO b. CH3O c. C2H2O d. C2H5O e. C2H6O f. C3HO6 g. C3H6O h. C4H12O2 i. C4H13O2 j. C5HO3 Of course on the actual exam we could use subscripts. Ten item multiple choice forms are available commercially. 15 item forms will be printed and graded if we create the demand. Student results on this particular question were: answer number of students points awarded a 5 0 b 14 0 c 4 0 d 7 0 e 239 7 f 35 2 g 4 0 h 29 5 i 110 3 j 58 0 Who is interested in sharing machine graded exam questions for the evaluation of teaching methods? Sincerely, Reed Howald "uchrh@earth.oscs.montana.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 12:46:23 -0700 From: Stephen Lower Subject: Re: Paper 6 Reply to Short Questions >I agree completely with Theresa, assesment of our students is paramount. >This is particularly true at smaller (or less well funded) schools where >the cost of such technology is not trivial. If the school invests in the >equipment there should be an assurance that educational quality improves. >George Long This assurance can never be possible because the "educational quality" that results from the introduction of new technology tends in practice to be limited more by the attitudes and openness to change on the part of the faculty than on the technology itself; at least this is what I have seen with CAI for the last 20+ years. As for costs, consider that if a $1000 software package can deliver 10% of the instruction of a $40,000 teacher, this represents a savings of $3000 in the first year and $4000 in subsequent years. The educational establishment has been remarkably impervious to the implications of this fact of elementary economics, but the public and the politicians are beginning to take notice (I noted Senator Moynihan's remarks on this topic in last Sunday's "Meet the Press"). I would suggest that we can't afford NOT to invest in technology and make sure we learn to use it effectively. (I'll be preaching a sermon on this subject at one of the ChemEd93 workshops next month.) ---------- Steve Lower - Vancouver, Canada Dept of Chemistry - Simon Fraser University - Burnaby BC V5A 1S6 lower@sfu.ca 604-291-3353 FAX: 604-291-3765 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 17:11:45 -0500 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 6 Reply to Short Questions I agree that we can't afford to not invest in educational technology. Also it is imperative that we learn to use the available technology well, but there is a point of diminishing returns. To determine where that point is we need to know how good the technology is, and some type of student assesment is essential to this determination. Also, the cost of training (discussed in paper 9) should be considered in this discussion (I'll save it for later). As a last comment, I believe many faculty unions have impeded progress in this area because they believe the application of educational technologies will reduce the number of staff. It would be far better if faculty would push for more release time to learn how to apply technology effectively, and provide evidence for improvement of educational quality. george Long Indiana Univ. of PA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 18:43:51 EDT From: Charlie Abrams Subject: Re: Paper 6 Reply to Short Questions In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 13 JUL 1993 10:11:45 EDT > it for later). As a last comment, I believe many faculty unions have impeded > progress in this area because they believe the application of educational > technologies will reduce the number of staff. It would be far better if If it is true that faculty resist this progress, it is based on a myth. The work doesn't go away just because you have a program. In my limited experience, I have found just the opposite to be true: my students' questions have been more insightful, and require more work on my part to answer, because the software gives them a better understanding of the basics. (I'm using IR Tutor for ugrad organic.) Furthermore, advances in technology have always led us to increase our expectations of productivity - how many of us used (or needed?) a word processor 10 years ago? Charles B. Abrams McGill University (514) 398-6224 cx7q@musica.mcgill.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 19:29:40 -0400 From: Scott VanBramer Subject: Paper6discussion In response to Reed Howald regarding Paper6 < I can see real value in Lanzaframe's program in assigning even < more graphing problems to our students. ... I personally < would also need the capability of continually adding new types < of problems to the system... This past year I gave take home exams for the Instrumental Analysis course at Lock Haven University. Because I was concerned about students cheating I wanted to generate more than one version of a question but was daunted by the size of this task. By using a spreadsheet (Lotus 123) I was able to add random noise and quickly generate multiple versions of a question. Appropriate parameters can be used to randomly pick a slope and intercept for the data. "Lifelike" data can then be generated by adding some random noise to predicted value of a data point. This can be generated as follows: (@rand+@rand+@rand+@rand+@rand+@rand+@rand+@rand+@rand+@rand-5)/5 This returns a random normally distributed value between -1 and 1. The accuracy of the gaussian distribution can be improved by increasing the number of iterations. By incorporating this "noise" into the spreadsheet calculation (in whatever form appropriate for the data) the question is much more realistic. Students were often surprised to receive questions that did not plot as perfect lines (This indicates the addition of noise into questions at all levels would be advisable). After the spreadsheet is set up it is easy to graph the data, print the question, and print the answers. Additional questions can be quickly produced by recalculating the spreadsheet to generate a new set of random numbers. Obviously this will not work for large classes, although it could be automated with macros. It makes it easy to write questions, find answers, and generate a number of versions of the same problem. This makes it difficult for students to copy (Or at least requires enough effort that they will still learn). The effort required to grade all this can be reduced by generating several versions of each question (rather than unique questions for each student). Randomly picking from the available versions creates millions of unique exams from a much smaller number of questions. Although students could still cheat, they will not be able to help each other very much unless the entire class cooperates. Scott Van Bramer svanbram@eagle.lhup.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 17:31:52 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: paper 6 discussion evaluation I would like more information about machine graded exam questions. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 19:42:00 CDT From: Ray Sommers Subject: Paper 6 Titration Curves 1. In the titration data presented there is the _meter pH_ and the _true pH_. Is this common practice to do this sort of calibration? Comments? 2. In scanning the source code I do not seem to find any consideration of activity coeficients. Is this true or did I just miss it? |==================================================================| | | | Ray Sommers, Chem Dept. +----+----+ | | | | U of Wis @ Stevens Point | | | | | / \ Stevens Point WI 54481 /^\ | /^\ | | / UWSP \ rsommers@spu1.uwsp.edu (___) | (___) | | (__________) rsommers@uwspmail.uwsp.edu /^\ | |==================================================================| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 23:20:28 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Paper 6 Titration Curves -- Reply > 1. In the titration data presented there is the _meter pH_ and the > _true pH_. Is this common practice to do this sort of calibration? I don't think it is common practice. Most modern meters have capability for two point calibration built in--ours do and the students use them that way in the lab routinely. Although, the first time they learn to use the meter, we do have them check the meter and electrode system with 5 buffers, plotting this type of "calibration curve". It builds some confidence in the electrodes. I just took the opportunity of having them work with another calibration curve and built this into the problem generator. > 2. In scanning the source code I do not seem to find any consideration > of activity coeficients. Is this true or did I just miss it? I did not build any consideration of activity coefficients into the titration problem. ___________________________________________________________ | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 23:36:59 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper 6 discussion Frank Lanzafame writes >The goal was simple to generate unique problem sets for >students.....to provide some realism. This is very important in teaching. Although is very interesting to read about the precise and correct way to represent error fluctuations we need to remember that we can't do it all in one course. As you all know, for any learning situation we need to set goals and objectives and then design appropriate learning modules/units/lectures to get students to achieve those objectives. Sometimes it is not necessary to do things perfectly in order to accomplish a set of objectives. This occurs everyday in gen. chem. Concentrations are routinely used instead of activities, simplistic explanations of orbitals, etc. the list is long. It's OK. We teach in layers of repetition and increasing sophistication. Greater refinement and insight is gained as the students progress and mature. This is true when anyone, including ourselves, starts studying in any area that is new to us. For example, someday I hope to study the piano. I will start with scales and move my way up (I'll use a new shiny electronic piano with attached computer to study). It will be great fun. The purists may say, "Oh, no not me I won't play unless I have an authentic grand piano." The sound is not the same. Well I'll be playing and they won't. So use any CAI that gets the job done even if its not the grand CAI of our dreams. If it's a good CAI students will learn enough to move on to the next level of sophistication. ---------- Reed Howald mentions > Placebo effect Well pass out those placebos. I'll use anything that will entice students into my web of learning. Once their hooked their hooked for good. His idea about multiple choice questions with 10 - 15 choices is really interesting. This can be coupled to the idea of assessment in the service of learning and instruction. This is one of those easy ways to evaluate our teaching (Frank, this is not the easiest example that I have, in fact I just invented it today). At the end of a learning unit the instructor can give a question of this type to the class. The class works for 5-10 minutes. The TA collects the answers and runs over to the scoring machine. Class and instructor get immediate feedback because each wrong answer corresponds to a unique but incorrect type of thinking on the part of the students. Instructor then analyzes results with class or if time is of essence just picks out the one or two most serious error types and works on correcting those misconceptions. The key here is that misconceptions are discovered before they do permanent damage to the learning progress. You say you don't have time, well you may be able to find some by letting students do some chapter work without your lecturing the same material that can be found in the book. If you hold them accountable with this type of exam they will comply (of course some will never comply, but we can't solve all problems). To use this type of question only on exams is to miss out on a powerful tool to aid instruction. Corrections of mislearning must be done before the students get to exams that determine their grade. This is an essential part of instruction that enhances critical thinking skills in students. I certainly would be interested in sharing exam questions for detecting student success in learning, i.e. questions that would detect their misconceptions before a learning experience and then again after their learning experience. I want to know if they have gained by the experience, do they understand better, can they think better. Time and effort spent on evaluation is very important. NSF guidelines for programs funded through the Undergraduate Education Directorate require both summative and formative assessment strategies. -------- Steve Lower again makes an important point The success of new technology is >limited more by the attitudes and openness to change on the >part of the faculty than on the technology Elaborating on his idea Technology should not reduce staff. The professor is still needed to create the learning environment and implement the sequence of learning for the student. To watch a tape of me lecturing is not the same as me diagnosing, developing and directing effective strategies for learning. Like a physician I must see and observe the students in action in order to do this effectively. So maybe the role of the professor is shifting from presenting facts and stuff toward assessing the success of students 1) to diagnose and improve learning and 2) to monitor mastery and assign grades. --------- What is source for Noggle's Easy Fit program? ----------- To add to Don Rosenthal's contribution of 7/12 @ 16:23 Since we can't so it all we must select both the topics and the depth of instruction. It might help to combine objectives in order not to waste time (student time is a valuable resource). For students with little/no prior spreadsheet experience and little/no knowledge of curve fitting I use the first lab period in the following way. I give them 100 points to plot, the spreadsheet program and the tutorial for the program. I expect them to use linear least squares equations to get the equation for the line and compare it to the regression result from the program. The resulting graph is needed for one of their next experiments. There are several layers of objectives here. 1) learn to use the computer quickly. 2) learn spreadsheets fast - your life in this course depends on it. 3) data analysis is easier with a computer. 4) LLS fitting is not so much a black box. 5) they learn to get paper plots etc. They are not proficient by any standard but they are on their way to being independent. A few more weeks and they're teaching me tricks. There's that hook again. ----------- Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Niagara University NY 14109 Roszieli@Ubvms ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 05:39:56 EST From: "William J. Sondgerath" Subject: Q & A to Paper 7 Questions from Donald Rosenthal 1. Is there a course text? Do students read the book? Response: Yes, we use Heath Chemistry and we make regular reading assignments. Most students read the book. 2. Do you lecture and provide time for class discussion and problem work- ing sessions? Response: Yes, we still lecture, but we try to keep this time to minimum to retain their attention span. They are not usually as good at taking notes as college students. Discussion time we feel is very important for their understanding. 3.Are computers integrated into the class hours or do students use the com- puters during study hall hours and after school? Response: Most of the time is to work on computers is done during class time. Make-up work or word processed reports are done on their own. 4. On the average what fraction of the course is devoted to each type of activity? What about traditional laboratory work? Response: When we integrated computers we examined the chemistry course content and applied the use of computers wherever they could be appropriately used. For example--per cent composition concepts instead of lecturing, the students use INTRODUCTION TO CHEMISTRY software from Stan Smith of University of Illinois. Or when they learn to use thermistors instead of thermometers, they use them in the lab. Once they learn does not take much more time. Spreadsheets and graphing take more time initially, but after they learn their use not much more time than tradition- al. The traditional labs that we were doing, now we are using thermistors, pH probes, and/or spreadsheets and graphing in about 1/2 of them. 5. Computer activities must replace other activities. Which are the acti- vities replaced? As I stated in 4, we try to do computer activities in place of some other activity. i.e. Instead of a worksheet on writing formulas or naming compounds, a computer skills building software is used. Yes there are probably some topics that don't get as much attention in first year chemistry such as molality, kinetics, equilibrium. Questions from Mirja Karjalainen 1. How did you select the classes for CAI? Should the students have any prior computer skills? Response: 1) Two rooms in our high school are used for chemistry, one has computers and one does not. Students were place in each randomly according to their schedule needs. The teachers, Dolores Handy and myself were assigned by administration so that 1/2 of Chemistry I classes would be in computer classroom. 2) Initially when the project was started not very many students had computer experience, but since there were three student/computer, we assigned at least one person who had computer experience to each group. The cooperative learning we found to be most useful. Most students now have used Microsoft Works at least in word processing now when they come to chemistry so that is very helpful in learning spread- sheeting in Microsoft. II. I'm not familiar with the Safety in Science Lab Software. Is it designed specially for the high school science education? How much does it contain data about properties of chemicals? Could I get some further information about it (a demo?) through the INTERNET? Reponse: 1) It contains two separate programs one for K-6 and one for 7-14. 2) It has a data base for inventorying and it give the common hazards such fire, toxicity,..., and labels can be printed. 3) To schedule a workshop or seminar dealing with laboratory safety and/or to discuss the safety software, call or write. JaKel, INC 585 Southfork Dr. Waukee, IA 50263 U.S.A (515-225-6317) Questions from R. T. Wilson 1. How many students are in your typical lab, and how long are the lab periods? Response: 24 is usually the maximum and the periods are 50 minutes. 2. How much time does a typical student require to finish an experiement and report which requires word-processing or a spreadsheet? Do they usually finish the report during the lab period, or do they have to do it later in the media center? Response: Typically one period is used taking data and recording it in a spreadsheet and then following day calculations are done in spreadsheet and graphing. Sometimes the slower students have complete and print in the media center. 3. You say: Is this in paper or computer format? When during the year is it used? Are the "20 instructional days" on which it is used consecutive? What do you mean exactly by "tutorials?" Response: Last question first. A tutorial to me is a method that a student can learn a concept and in my case it is taught by the student interacting with a computer software package such as Stan Smith's. So for example if I am going to teach Percent Composition, I give a study guide and the students will work through Stan Smith's lessons on percent composition. Sometimes we use the software to introduce topic, sometimes to reinforce, sometimes to conclude, and other times as remediation. Finally, all concepts that are taught are not adequately covered in the software, but where and when we can find appropriate software we utilize it in our curriculum at the appropriate time. Such as during nomenclature, gas laws, solutions, acid-bases, periodicity we use software tutorials. THANKS FOR ALL QUESTIONS AND I HOPE THAT I ANSWERED THEM SATISFACTORILY. IF NOT I AM ALWAYS HERE! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 09:20:46 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 6 Reply to Short Questions George long notes that: >I agree that we can't afford to not invest in educational technology. Also >it is imperative that we learn to use the available technology well, but >there is a point of diminishing returns. To determine where that point is >we need to know how good the technology is, and some type of student >assesment is essential to this determination. Also, the cost of training >(discussed in paper 9) should be considered in this discussion (I'll save >it for later). As a last comment, I believe many faculty unions have impeded >progress in this area because they believe the application of educational >technologies will reduce the number of staff. It would be far better if >faculty would push for more release time to learn how to apply technology >effectively, and provide evidence for improvement of educational quality. The best way to learn we tell our students is to do something. That applies to faculty as well. The resistance on the part of some of our colleagues is perhaps fear of the new, that which we wern't taught, but virtually nothing that I teach or do research in was taught to me -- at 53 I'm too old. The first computer I used was a multi-million dollar IBM system less powerful than today's pocket clculators and the Mac on my desktop that I write this from is more powerful than Brock's first Burroughs mainframe 25 years ago. It doesn't take release time to learn to use computers any more than release time was needed when FTIR replaced dispersive instruments or AA replaced old sparck and arc photographic spectrographs. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 09:27:16 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper6 discussion reply to bagaddis >I would like more information about machine graded exam questions Machine grading offers us two important features: exactly consistent grading for a large class and a full record of the numbers of students selecting each answer for each question. Partial credit multiple choice requires several passes through the grading process, and a separate key for each point value. We gave exams with problems worth 3, 4, 5, and 7 points, and prepared keys for 7, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 point. Making keys and being sure they are correct takes maybe two hours of the instructor's time. Our test scoring department could grade a set of 600 exams within 24 hours, so exam results were always posted before the next class period. The time required was less and results were available faster than when we used TA graders. The biggest advantage was a very big reduction in student complaints about grading. There is a substantial increase in time required in selecting wrong answers for inclusion. Dr. Craig was very good at this. But with 15 (or even 10) answers included you don't need to be perfect, some answers can be completely arbitrary. One thing clear from our results was that about 5% of the students were guessing randomly at most of the questions on the exams. I am pretty sure this is a subset of the students who failed to attend classes. I am lobbying for a bar code reader in our lecture hall so we can take attendance and monitor for exam ringers better. But the possibility of exam question sharing in a situation where a full record of answers for each class is readily available is intriguing. Spending an hour of staff time on getting a good question and set of answers is reasonable for 600 students, but it is clearly cost effective if the question can then be used for 6000 students. Reed Howald "uchrh@earth.oscs.montana.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 11:28:40 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: paper6 discussion reply to bagaddis In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 14 Jul 1993 09:27:16 MDT from On Wed, 14 Jul 1993 09:27:16 MDT Reed Howald said: >Partial credit multiple choice requires several passes through the grading >process, and a separate key for each point value. We gave exams with problems >worth 3, 4, 5, and 7 points, and prepared keys for 7, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 point. >Making keys and being sure they are correct takes maybe two hours of the >instructor's time. Our test scoring department could grade a set of 600 exams >within 24 hours, so exam results were always posted before the next class >period. The time required was less and results were available faster than when This is hardware and software dependent. We have one-pass grading with a departmental machine on multiple-choice, partial credit exams, and we can have scores posted in 1-2 hours. Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 11:35:56 EDT From: Jim Holler I keep forgetting that general discussion occurs later. The immediacy of email is too compelling. My apologies. Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 10:42:56 -0500 From: "Alfred J. Lata" Subject: 'Signatures' Dear Colleague: Please be sure to 'sign' your postings to the Conference. Include affiliation. Some of the 'From' addresses are difficult to decipher. Thanks. Alfred J. Lata Dept of Chemistry, Univ of Kansas lata@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 10:06:13 PST From: "Edward H. Piepmeier" Subject: MANUAL OR COMPUTER PLOTTING? I have struggled with what to do in my courses with manual and computer-generated plotting. Tom O'Haver's comment on July 9 in the short questions about Paper 9 clarified in my mind the need to emphasize computer-generated fitting and plotting: "These technologies [writing, arabic numerals, printing, symbolic notation...] are empowering; for example, any child using arabic numerals today can perform arithmetic tasks that a senator of ancient Rome could not." What does a computer-generated fit and plot do that a manual plot cannot? A least-squares fit provides results that everyone can agree upon: a curve that is the best fit to that set of data, and a set of uncertainties and confidence intervals in the numerical results that are obtained using the fit. Manually drawn curves differ with the person who draws them, and numerical values and uncertainties obtained from the curves also differ, and are subject to reading errors. A computer-generated fit also provides the deviations of the data from the fitted curve even for very close fits to the data points. Systematic patterns in these deviations often suggest that a different mathematical model should be used for the fit, or may indicate that systematic errors have been made in collecting the data. (There are even statistical (numerical) ways to determine when an appropriate level of polynomial fit has been reached.) Deviations are difficult to evaluate from manual plots, especially when the fit is close to the data. Manual plotting allows unconscious weighting of the data points. Even a weighted least-squares fit will vary with the weights that are given to the data points, but any disagreement about the values for the weights encourages a more careful evaluation of the reasons for the uncertainties in the data than might be done otherwise. SO WHY MANUAL PLOTTING? It is well known in the field of education that students have several learning styles: visual, auditory, and kinesthetic. Those who learn most easily by kinesthetic means may learn more quickly by making manual plots. Therefore I hesitate to remove this manual experience from my courses. However, once they have learned the basics, they should advance to the more empowering computer-generated fits and plots, and learn how to interpret the information that is available from these fits and plots. Those who learn easily by visualization may not need a manual-plotting introduction. For those who learn most easily by auditory means, lectures or discussions are helpful, at least until the next step in the computer world allows them to listen to a computer. TEMPLATES? Unfortunately we seem to be in a situation where most curve- fitting programs present extraneous information (such as the correlation coefficient, when the variables are already known to be correlated) and leave out other information important to our applications. This leaves it up to us to show the student how to make that information available via spreadsheets or other programming language. Templates are ok, but they leave the student in dark about how to obtain this information in situations outside the classroom. Ed Piepmeier Oregon State University Corvallis, OR ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 16:37:12 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: 'Signatures' My apologies. I "control-Zed" before I was finished with the message. Barbara Gaddis Science Learning Center U.C.C.S. Colorado Springs, Co ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 21:16:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: PAPER 7 - ANSWERS TO AUTHOR'S QUESTIONS Paper 7 INTEGRATING COMPUTERS INTO THE HIGH SCHOOL CHEMISTRY CLASSROOM William J. Sondgerath, Chemistry Teacher, Harrison High, West Lafayette, Indiana (BSONDGER@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To: PARTICIPANTS From: Donald Rosenthal It seems to me that authors have generally done a much better job answering participant's questions than other participants have done in answering author's questions. I think Bill Sondgerath has asked some interesting questions. I would like to read PARTICIPANT'S ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS. I'm appending the questions to this memo. (Pages are from my printed copy of the author's text.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTIONS FROM AUTHOR TO PARTICIPANTS Questions on Page 4: 1. What tutorials have you found to be useful in teaching high school chemistry? 2. What methods do you employ to evaluate concepts learned from using tutorials? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions on page 6: 1. How have you used KC? Discoverer that would be helpful for other chemistry teachers to know? 2. Are there other databases that you find useful? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions on page 7: 1. Do you know of any good, reasonably priced color LCD's? 2. What have you done with visualization that could enhance chemistry instruction? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions on page 7: 1. Does anyone require word-processed reports? 2. Could you make a contribution on how you successfully utilize word processing in your chemistry program? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions on page 21: 1. In what ways do you find spreadsheeting and graphing from the computer useful? 2. Do you have any unique use of spreadsheets and graphs from the computer? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions on page 22: 1. What types of experiments involving interfacing do you use, or would you like to use? 2. Do you have any advice for someone starting to use interfacing? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions on page 22: 1. Do you have a powerful gradebook? 2. Do you have any suggestions to other teachers in using such a management tool? ------------------------------------------------------------------- IX. Safety in Science Lab last Questions: 1. Would software like this be valuable to you? 2. Have you found any safety software that would be useful to other chemistry teachers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 09:00:00 EDT From: dana barry Subject: paper7 question What difficulties do you encounter by having three students per computer? dana barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 08:59:00 EDT From: jbarry Subject: paper7question There has been a trend in high schools across the country to decrease the num- ber of "wet" lab experiments because of safety, expense etc. Do you think that computer simulations of experiments will accelerate this trend? What effects might this have on the abilities of chemists to work with chemicals in the real world? jbarry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 09:46:53 EDT From: "R. T. Wilson" Subject: Re: PAPER 7 - ANSWERS TO AUTHOR'S QUESTIONS Don, I think most of us are a little reluctant to answer Bill Sondgerath's questions because he is way out ahead of us. He is certainly ahead of me, anyway. His paper was a real eye-opener. I simply did not know people weredoing stuff like this in high school. I teach first year college chemistry. Our computers are not in the lab, but are down the hall on another floor of the building. We have plenty of them, but it is not very convenient to try to use them during lab time. I have not tried any interfacing, but it sounds like maybe I should get started on it. We do have one experiment involving analysis of the data collected by the whole class with a spreadsheet which is turned in the week after the experiment is done. Most of our experiments are turned in the same day they are done, so I don't ask students to do any word-processing. I do usually ask them to write a couple of reports as part of their class work, and those are word-processed. We have used KC-discoverer, but to be honest, I didn't like it too much. I may give it another try this year. My grade book is a Q-Pro spreadsheet which I made up myself. Sorry Don (and Bill), but those are about all the comments I can make. After reading your paper, I feel like the Flintstones, but I will try to do better. Terrell Wilson Virginia Military Institute Lexington, Virginia 24450 {fchwilson%faculty%vmi@ist.vmi.edu} ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 10:53:02 -0400 From: Estela Blaisten-Barojas Subject: doctoral research assistantship is available --------------------------------------------------------- | Research opportunities leading to a Ph. D. | | in "Computational Sciences and Informatics" | | at George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia | | (see ad in Physics Today, May issue 1993, page 96, | | and again in the September 1993 issue). | |----------------------------------------------------- Research assistantships are available in computer intensive dynamical simulation of large atomic systems as applied to condensed matter problems and materials sciences. Candidates should be interested in massively parallel computer platforms and applications of Molecular Dynamics,Monte Carlo and cellular automata. The stipend fluctuates, upon candidate credentials, between $11,000 and $14,000 for the year plus waiver of full time tuition. Requirements: Computational experience and M. S. in either Applied Physics, Physics, Materials Sciences, Theoretical Chemistry, Chemical or Electrical Engineering. Other assistanships and post-doc opportunities are also available. Interested applicants should write to Dr. E. Blaisten-Barojas, CSI-Dep. of Physics, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA 22030-4444. Please send vita, copy of undergraduate and graduate transcripts, and three letters of reference when responding. For additional information send e-mail to eblaiste@gmu.edu. ---------- Estela Blaisten-Barojas, Professor CSI-Physics Department FAX: (703) 993-1993 George Mason University email: EBLAISTE@gmuvax.gmu.edu Fairfax, VA 22030 Phone: (703) 993-1988 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 10:48:10 EDT From: Allan Smith Subject: Re: PAPER 7 - ANSWERS TO AUTHOR'S QUESTIONS In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 14 Jul 1993 21:16:00 EDT from On gradebook "programs": I believe that the best way to handle grades is with a spreadsheet, not a dedicated gradebook program. Sure, it takes a while to learn how to use a spreadsheet, but the general capability that you then have at your fingertips is far more useful than any gradebook program will ever be. For small classes, I enter student names manually into Excel running on my Mac, then set up columns for each graded activity - labs, quizzes, mid-terms, the paper. I put the Excel file on another Mac so that the teaching assistants can enter grades. When I compute the final class averages, I enter a formula with the appropriate weights and copy that formula down a whole column. Whenever students come to my office to check their grades, I start up Excel and look at the records. This system has worked well for me for several years in classes of 100-200 students. Our student information system on the university mainframe now has a capability for downloading class-lists in a flatfile format, thus making transfer to a spreadsheet very easy. The whole system is simple and effective. Allan Smith, Drexel University Chemistry Department ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 09:22:59 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper 7 questions >From: jbarry >Subject: paper7question >X-To: computer conference >To: Multiple recipients of list CHEMCONF >There has been a trend in high schools across the country to decrease the num- >ber of "wet" lab experiments because of safety, expense etc. Do you think >that > computer simulations of experiments will accelerate this trend? What effects >might this have on the abilities of chemists to work with chemicals in the >real > world? jbarry Yes, it will accellerate the trend. But there are two other trends that we can push harder to lessen the problem. There is an increasing trend toward involving younger students in experimental science. A lot is being written encouraging teachers to plan occasional experiments for a whole class. There are many valuable and interesting things which can be done at the 5th and 6th grade levels (before students have become disillusioned about science in school). A very satisfactory alternative to simulated experiments in the computer collection of real experimental data. There are a lot of things all of us can do to encourage this: Plan good experiments for our own students at all levels, share experiments, share equipment, simplify good experiments for a younger group of students, talk with general science teachers, etc. Simulations will not hurt if the students get enough experience in collecting real experimental data to understand the limitations of the simulations. Let me give an example. I have built several pressure sensors to work with Amend's interface. Two of them are in regular use in our P-chem laboratory for gas law, vapor pressure, and kinetics experiments. However I would like to see this equipment in use measuring sound waves in music classes or measuring atmospheric pressure at one hour intervals over the two week period while a teacher is covering a unit on weather. Rosenthal wants us to answer all of the questions in paper 7. I don't see any easy way to do that, nor what use it would be. However let me try to summarize my thoughts with regard to the two on "interfacing". >What types of experiments involving interfacing do you use, or would you like to use? For p-chem about 80% of the experiments are interfaced. We use the pressure sensors, thermistors, block colorimeters, pH and other electrodes, and a simple DC conductance cell. We have several good kinetics experiments including hydrolysis by conductance, and the enzyme catalyzed decomposition of hydrogen peroxide with dry yeast and the pressure sensor. I am not now involved in our freshman laboratories, but they use the interfaces regularly in titrations with pH electrodes and also in thermometric titrations (which work very well with thermistor temperature measurements with 0.007 K standard deviation, normally given by Amend's interfaces). I would like to measure density of solutions from vibration frequencies, and measure heat capacities with low power electrical heating with a new interface which can get to a standard deviation below 0.001 K on temperature. I would like to help develop additional experiments for all levels of science teaching. I would like to analyze the vibration frequencies of a building or an automobile. >Do you have any advice for someone starting to use interfacing? Yes. Do it and be proud. At whatever level of equipment you have, talk up its virtues. Apple game port interfacing is good, and you can do a lot with it. If you are working with large numbers of students, be sure that your TA's are well trained in the use of the equipment. The most important thing is ATTITUDE. I pushed a little too fast at the beginning, and our freshman chemistry laboratory got very low student evaluations in some sections, those in which the TA did not think the interfacing was a good idea. Secondly, try to involve your students in the design of the experiment. Computers are versatile, and interfaced experiments are even more so. You can vary what is measured, how often, etc. If data collection is fast you can afford to make mistakes and try again to do better. Do a class experiment. Get the data into a spreadsheet. Work on the data analysis with real data. A few students will understand the results quickly. Send them off to change the experiment to get better data while the rest of the class is still working on what the data they have means. Third, share. Find teachers with the same or similar equipment. Trade experiments. Share successes. Let your students see what other classes are doing. Encourage them to try to do better, or to extend environmental sampling into new geographical areas. If you record the temperature and pressure changes as a cold front comes in, try to get another class 100 miles away to take similar readings and measure the velocity of the front. Fourth, be open minded. Try new experiments. Try new kinds of experiments. We really don't know yet what all this new technology can do. However it will revolutionize the teaching of science. If it did nothing more than raise the teacher's enthusiasm we would see the results in our students. Reed Howald "uchrh@earth.oscs.montana.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 13:51:00 EDT From: RICHARD GRAHAM Subject: Grading - Paper 7 The U.S. Military Academy at West Point, New York several years ago automated the whole recording of grades. The "mainframe" computer generates the class lists that are sent to departmental servers. These are then accessible by the individual faculty members for the sections they are assigned. The instructors download the necessary files from the server to their individual machines. At the desk, the instructors can then input grades, edit grades, produce reports in a variety of fashions (including instructor defined), weights can be assigned to individual types of assignments (labs, quizzes, etc). Cutoff scores for assignment of letter grades is also accomplished. The instructor can also change individual letter grades if desired. The instructors are urged then to upload the information to the server where it is available for the department chair to examine. The rolls are uploaded to the server by the instructors each time a new score is posted. Thus there are two copies of the grade book for each instructor. At the end of the semester, when the department chair has cleared grades, the instructor uploads the file from the departmental server to the "mainframe". Paper is never used to transmit grades, etc. I used the system for a couple of years and it worked marvelously. Dick Graham Towson State University, Department of Chemistry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 13:48:00 EDT From: "j.barry" Subject: safety The paper mentions many good ideas in regard to safety in the laboratory. However, it is important for us to be good role models. If we walk aroundthe lab without an apron on or with safety goggles on our foreheads we are giving the wrong message to our students. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 13:42:37 EST From: "William J. Sondgerath" Subject: Re: paper7 question In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Jul 1993 09:00:00 EDT from When the students are learning a new concept, most of the time 3 students to a computer is useful. They are very good at helping each other. If I have given oral instructions, one of the three more than likely will pick up the information needed. We are fortunate to have a computer lab which can be scheduled for individual work such problem practice (skill building). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 13:51:20 EST From: "William J. Sondgerath" Subject: Re: paper7question In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Jul 1993 08:59:00 EDT from I'm sure that the more dangerous labs may be demonstrated with videodic aided by computers, but hopefully that instead of the traditional "wet" lab may be computer simulations will be used to show how it is done in research and industrial labs. Microscale labs can be very useful, too. Hopefully through a good selection process students will be able learn chemical principles with "relatively" safe reagents if larger scale experiments are necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 16:03:39 CDT From: "Harmon B. Abrahamson" Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: paper 7 In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Jul 1993 09:46:53 EDT from Dear Conferees: I would like to echo the comments by R.T. Wilson, inasmuch as many of the applications of computers in chemistry teaching discussed in this conference are ahead of what we at the Univ. of North Dakota are currently able to do. Our primary limitation has been severely shrinking equipment budgets. We were finally able to wrangle an internal grant to get enough computers to begin to use them in chem. major courses. I could use suggestions on how to get access to enough hardware to use computers in our General Chemistry course with enrollments over 600 each fall semester. As far as gradebook programs are concerned, I use a commercial database program (Microsoft File on Macintosh) that lets me do computed fields. An advantage of the database approach is that I can print a half-page summary for each student towards the end of the semester to let them double-check their records. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Harmon B. Abrahamson | BITNET: UD108726@NDSUVM1 Department of Chemistry | INTERNET: UD108726@VM1.NoDak.EDU University of North Dakota | PHONE: (701) 777-2641 PO BOX 9024 | FAX: (701) 777-2331 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9024 |************************************ | What's nu? E/h of course! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 17:32:38 -0400 From: "Ian Swainson, AECL Research, Chalk River" LIST LOCAL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 23:06:12 EDT From: David Ostfeld Subject: Paper 7 I think some of the issues raised in this paper deserve more attention. I have also been "wrestling" with the problem of integrating technology into the teaching of high school chemistry. I guess the problems are always the same, but the solutions can vary. I have been using the "Chemical Problem Proctor" -- a program similar to the "Introduction to General Chemistry" mentioned in the article. Actually I have both programs, and just prefer the way the former program does things. I have also found that students "race through their completion like a computer game." I suppose that a program which kept score and then saved the score in a database might help. But then you'd probably have students figuring out how to hack the database. Sondergath counters the racing- through problem by having the students the students complete guidelines. I have been giving quizzes taken from the problems they were solving. Isn't this an easier way to do it? I don't have KC? DISCOVERER for teaching periodic trends. But I do have CHEMISTRY WORKS. It seems like a good way to teach periodicity. Are the programs roughly equivalent? I also use an LCD panel for displaying the results to certain programs. However, I am less happy with it than is Mr. Sondergath. I don't like having to turn off the lights and pull down a screen. The alternative to pulling down a screen is projecting on a dry erase board; but they are bit shinier than I would like. What I think would be ideal would be a VGA to composite video converter. I have a large-screen TV which I use for show- ing video disks and tapes (an aspect of technology which probably deserves a paper by itself). I would like to use this same TV for showing computer results. (This is, after all, a class roon and not a lecture hall.) The problem is which one to use. Despite promises to the contrary, all the converters I have seen tend to flicker excessively. Anyone have any experience? Certainly one needs a spreadsheet for student use. We use Claris Works. I think it handles graphs a bit better than Microsoft Works. (I don't like the graphing capabilities of either program as well as I like those of Harvard Graphics, but HG has other limitations.) Finally there is the IBM Personal Science Lab. I would really like to know how other people use these. It's easy to see what the temperature probes can do. Cooloing curves and freezing point depressions are just two obvious examples. I have been very pleased. I haven't gotten around to ggetting pressure transducers, but I guess that will come next. But what about those pH probes. Is it realistic to plot pH versus time to get titration curves. I think it would be better to just show the students a video of a proper titration rather than that. I would like to see some more discussion of that. Well, I've rambled on enough. I've gotten a lot of ideas from this conference and just wanted to put something back in. Dave Ostfeld Academy for the Advancement of Science & Technology OSTFELD@PILOT.NJIN.NET ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 04:20:16 CDT From: Charles Fox Subject: Re: PAPER 7 - ANSWERS TO AUTHOR'S QUESTIONS But there are a lot of good gradebook programs that allow lots of flexibility and work well for those of us who hate spreadsheets and the 'nightmare'they are to set up the firest time. I quess I believe it depends on the person--both approaches work equally well. Charles E. Fox Chemical _______ Hygiene Officer St. Ambrose Univ. Chemistry/ \Instructor 518 W. Locust St. Lab/ \Coordinator Davenport,IA 52803 Work/ /--\ \Study FAX 319-383-8791 Chem. \ \--/ /Biology Voice -383-8921 Science \ /Department cfox@saunix.sau.edu All \-------/around 'Gopher' ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 09:43:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 8 discussion > Monitor and whiteboards are present allowing a choice of > presentation style (white board or direct camera > presentation). Both formats are thus visible by both groups > of students (classroom and distance sites). Surveys > indicate that classroom students prefer whiteboard > presentation while distance students prefer camera > presentation. I'm not sure I understand the difference between whiteboard presentation and camera presentation. Can you explain further? Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 09:07:15 -0500 From: 01twadams@LEO.BSUVC.BSU.EDU Subject: paper #7 Congrats to Bill for a very cogent presentation of technology in HS chem. I also use Much of the same technology as Bill in my HS chem classes. I use interfacing from Vernier Software, 2920 S.W. 89th St., Portland, OR 97225; phone (503) 297-5317. Simple to use. Less expensive than most. Students react well. Use Temp probes for small quantity heats of reaction and long term (> 2 hours) temp studies. pH probes for potentiometric titration (let the computer keep and plot the data). Starting to mess with pressure sensor and thermocouple. They also have a good lab book for interfacing computers in chem lab. I use KC? Discoverer almost exclusively for student learning of periodic trends. I use work sheets for "guided" learning. Works FINE. Use of spreadsheets for analysis of quantitative data is a must. I have even introduced some elementary statistics for analysis of whole class data by all students. Will be giving presentation about some of this at ChemEd '93 in Indianapolis the first week of August and at regional NSTA in Louisville in November. Would like to talk with anyone interested. Tom Adams Indiana Academy for Science, Mathematics & Humanities 01twadams@bsuvc.bsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 10:30:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 8 discussion Since 1991, the University of Maryland System has been operating a interactive compressed video network between several widely separated sites throughout the state. To date, class offerings include selected advanced undergraduate and graduate courses in Chemistry, Computer Science, Business, Mechanical Engineering, and Statistics and various educational and professional seminars. Plans are to eventually interface to national and international compressed video networks. Current plans include linking with the long- distance carriers (AT&T, MCI, Sprint), and become a public site for private and public entities within the State. I have not used this facility myself, and I don't know how this would compare with satellite communication. But it does look like yet another way to do distance education. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 10:28:13 CDT From: "Harmon B. Abrahamson" Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Re: Paper 8 discussion In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 16 Jul 1993 09:43:00 EDT from A comment on Tom O'Haver's whiteboard question... I did some interqctive video classes in the early 80's at Univ. of Oklahoma. There we could either transmit a shot of me writing on the board (green then, not white), or use an overhead camera focussed on a pad (about 7 x 9 in.) on the desk . I found that the remote students preferred the writing on the pad because it was easier to read. This is probably similar to the comment in Paper 8. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Harmon B. Abrahamson | BITNET: UD108726@NDSUVM1 Department of Chemistry | INTERNET: UD108726@VM1.NoDak.EDU University of North Dakota | PHONE: (701) 777-2641 PO BOX 9024 | FAX: (701) 777-2331 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9024 |************************************ | What's nu? E/h of course! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 10:17:28 -0700 From: Stephen Lower Subject: Re: paper 7 >Our primary limitation has been severely >shrinking equipment budgets. We were finally able to wrangle an >internal grant to get enough computers to begin to use them in chem. >major courses. I could use suggestions on how to get access to enough >hardware to use computers in our General Chemistry course with >enrollments over 600 each fall semester. [Harmon B. Abrahamson] Our classes are about the same size, and we do it this way: 1) About one-third of our first-year students have computers of their own, or available to them at home. This significantly reduces the load on our on-campus facilities. Although are not one of those institutions that "requires" students to own a computer, many are coming to see doing so as highly desirable. These students use the lab desribed below only for downloading the software to diskettes that they take home and use there. 2) General-Chemistry students use a public microcomputer facility (about 70 PC's, 20 Macs) "Assignment Lab" that is restricted to students enrolled in courses in which computer use is required, but is otherwise not connected with any single department. Except perhaps in very large institutions, it is probably not very economical for individual departments to go it alone. Our university is as broke as many nowadays, and we are facing severe cuts in many aspects of our operations. Fortunately, however, our administration has seen fit to channel some of these cutbacks into things like better computer labs in the belief that they will deliver more and better instruction per dollar invested than what had been cut... including, in our case, the TA budget. Institutions that do not take this attitude and simply try to hang on to the status quo are likely to find themselves headed for obsolescence and possibly even eventual extinction. ---------- Steve Lower - Vancouver, Canada Dept of Chemistry - Simon Fraser University - Burnaby BC V5A 1S6 lower@sfu.ca 604-291-3353 FAX: 604-291-3765 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 12:26:07 -0500 From: Barry Rowe Subject: Re: PAPER 7 - ANSWERS TO AUTHOR'S QUESTIONS Good point that we did not really answer Bill's questions, which are really the most significant part of his fine paper -- we can all help each other with these answers! >QUESTIONS FROM AUTHOR TO PARTICIPANTS > >Questions on Page 4: >1. What tutorials have you found to be useful in teaching high > school chemistry? I use the "HyperChem" Modules from USD. These are HyperCard stacks done with NSF and Dreyfus foundation grants. They are readily available on Macintosh ftp sites. They are very well done, very helpful, and, well, slick -- er make that professional in appearance. >2. What methods do you employ to evaluate concepts learned from > using tutorials? Currently written quizzes, but I hope to start hypermedia based quizzes this year. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Questions on page 6: >1. How have you used KC? Discoverer that would be helpful for > other chemistry teachers to know? never used it >2. Are there other databases that you find useful? I use several HyperCard stacks about the periodic table that give lots of useful information, and we allow our students (encourage is a better word) to access data over Internet. We want them to access electronic databases to find information about elements and compounds. We at the ChemViz group are working on a program to access the Cambridge Structural Database for 3-space coordinates to use crystalographic data to generate MacMolecule files. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Questions on page 7: >1. Do you know of any good, reasonably priced color LCD's? none -- they are all too expensive for any of us to use without a 'sugar daddy' to help us afford it. >2. What have you done with visualization that could enhance > chemistry instruction? We concentrate our visualization on atomic and molecular theory using Macintoshes connected to the NCSA Cray. We have the students do calculated Atomic and Molecular orbital images and animations. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Questions on page 7: >1. Does anyone require word-processed reports? My AP CHemistry class must word process all lab writeups -- whether wet lab or computational lab. >2. Could you make a contribution on how you successfully > utilize word processing in your chemistry program? We provide a lab and some time during class. Mostly they must do their writeups after school and after class. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Questions on page 21: >1. In what ways do you find spreadsheeting and graphing from > the computer useful? Graphing energy data from our animations is useful to find bond length. Actually we use a graphing program, not a spreadsheet (Graphical Analysis from Vernier Software) >2. Do you have any unique use of spreadsheets and graphs from > the computer? See above. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Questions on page 22: >1. What types of experiments involving interfacing do you use, > or would you like to use? I have done thermochemical experiements and pH titrations with Apple IIGSs interfaced with kits from Vernier Software and HRM. The software is so user-unfriendly that I have not done much of it in recent years. >2. Do you have any advice for someone starting to use > interfacing? It is a very useful part of Chem Lab. But the overhead to learn the programs is pretty large. The advantage is better data, and automatic time measurement at shorter intervals. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Questions on page 22: >1. Do you have a powerful gradebook? I use a spreadsheet. I will probably convert to a database next year. FileMaker Pro allows access on Windows machines as well as Macs, and it is extremely powerful. >2. Do you have any suggestions to other teachers in using such > a management tool? The most important part of using an electronic gradebook is to make it available to students on demand. If they can access their grade and attendance information (and only theirs), it will make them more enlightened as to what they must do to get the grade they wish (which is only secondary to them learning what I think they should). >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >IX. Safety in Science Lab last >Questions: >1. Would software like this be valuable to you? yes >2. Have you found any safety software that would be useful > to other chemistry teachers? >no barry [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] Barry E. Rowe browe@ncsa.uiuc.edu NCSA ChemViz group 240 CAB, 152 E. Springfield Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 ANY PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF PHYSICS OBVIOUSLY INVOLVES MATTER, AND IS THEREFORE CHEMISTRY. [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 16:08:16 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Re: paper 6 discussion evaluation > > This type of exam question was developed by Dr. B. P. Mundy, Dr. A. C. Craig, > and myself in 1989. I will show you a 10 choice example from 1991: > > 10. (7 points) Determine the empirical formula of the compound with the > following percentage composition: 52.14% C, 13.13% H, and 34.73% O. > > a. CHO b. CH3O c. C2H2O d. C2H5O > > e. C2H6O f. C3HO6 g. C3H6O > > h. C4H12O2 i. C4H13O2 j. C5HO3 > > Of course on the actual exam we could use subscripts. Ten item multiple > choice > forms are available commercially. 15 item forms will be printed and graded > if > we create the demand. Student results on this particular question were: > > answer number of students points awarded > a 5 0 > b 14 0 > c 4 0 > d 7 0 > e 239 7 > f 35 2 > g 4 0 > h 29 5 > i 110 3 > j 58 0 > > Who is interested in sharing machine graded exam questions for the evaluation > of teaching methods? I have two questions about your question? 1. Who has determined that 15 multiple choice answers make for a better question? In fact I chose "h" which is according to your scale incorrect provided that you said in class that "empirical formula" means the least common denominator. So it comes down to some memorization and regugitation and some tricks. Having come from a chemical engineering background but teaching physical chemistry and food engineering in an applied biplogical discipline " food science, I had first gotten trapped into what I call the cook and look method of teaching and evaluating science. It makes for easier grading. However after a few years I went back to the way I was taught in that I now use in class open book exams and or take home exams. The students feel more comfortable and you can do more integrative prblems. For example in the above, after the first part you can then give them some information about the reliability of the analysis (eg the error on H analysis is 13  5 %, that it reacts to with Fehlings solution (thus it has a reducing group) and then list the mp or bp range and ask them for the real formula, so they get exercise in using the CRC Handbook. That was my most used text at MIT and I took it to almost all my exams, why don't we still do that today. Questions like this build them into using their knowledge, however if this is just at the start then it has to be simpler, which is what I guess you are doing. I still feel open bok is better and by the way, I found no difference in the average score in closed vs open books but the students feel more comfortable. Those that spend most time hunting to find an answer are the ones how score low since the good students still memorize key factors such as the MW of the simple molecules. I also use what I call validity statements which requires short discussion answers, for example : Dicuss the validity of the following statements: a. Dr. Franks says that using the term water activity to describe the vapor pressure of water surrounding a food in a package is incorrect since foods are never at true equilibrium and the definition of activity suggest equilibrium." (The point here is when are we ever at true equilibrium) b. A break in the Arrhenius plot indicates that the experimenter probably had poor temperature control. (The point here is that their may be a phase change , eg freexing, or a glass->rubber transition. 2. At what number of students do you have to go to multiple choice. I used to teach a class of 450-500 and used multiple choce. It gave a wide distribution but I was never satisfied with it. I had it machine graded. With few TAs or RAs that is the simple route, but why not design take home exams with groups. If some get by on the work of others so be it, perhaps the experience of a group is the best experience for them. In the food and drug field, no one works on their own, there are always product teams, and team work is required. Chem Eng has always done this and so why can't chemists or food scientists. One approach I use at the higher level is to give them a poor published research paper in which they can manipulate the data to gert a better outcome or to criticize the methods. I also use ads which make exagerated claims for physical properties (easy to find in the food and ag field) Perhaps we need a new Chem-Conf on shifting ecvaluation paradigms. One last general poin, on the spreadsheet vs canned written programs. Both work, but I hate to see too much emphasis put on problems where they have to devise a new spreadsheet each time, rather I like to see thought problems where the use the programs to create the numbers that can then be used to answer the question. I always put in some incorrect data and some irrelevant data to see how they handle it, they know I DO this from the first class. As an example homework style I use is the boos just saw this data and thinks this product X can be used to improve our product Y to be more competive and wants you to detyermine if we should incorporate it. The answer is open ended and I make them work in groups with a new group manager responsible for the report each time. There is some poor data in the data, problably because it was recorded wrong sometime intentionally or unitentionally. They then have to learn to make decisions. I tell them at the start that the final answer is not as important as them recording the heuristics they used in solving the problem. Many students don't like to do this but it does help them to learn. The data then can be run through the canned programs with and withou t the outliers to see what difference it makes in the final conclusions, rather than having to spend a lot of time to set up the spread sheet. On the other hand a spread sheet is useful where one wants to do a repetitive calculations for many values between an upper and lower limit to see the influence on another value. A good example of this is in heat transfer, ie when does the thichness of insulation on a pipe with a cool fluid inside flowing at constant temperature get so large that you end up heating it by the outside air. Essentially a double plot of h2rL(Tp-Tair) and k/r vs radius is needed. This is a good spreadsheet and graphing exercise and they see the value of spreadsheets and graphically examining the data. Dr Ted Labuza tplabuza@EPX.CIS.UMN.EDU or tplabuza@staff.tc.umn.edu Department of Food Science & Nutrition 136 AMLMS U of Minnesota St Paul, MN 55108 Home Fax 612-633-0627 Voice 612-624-9701 UM Fax 612-625-5272 "SURFING THE WAVES OF CYBERSPACE" ___ || | \| |__| | ---|---- / \ |___/__/\_____/ \ /\ /\ /\/\/\/\ / \ /\ / \/ \ /\/ \ / \/ \/ \/ \/ Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once". Except in my office which exists in a time warp!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 19:04:42 -0400 From: Judith Faye Rubinson Subject: Re: paper 6 discussion A number of people have expressed dissatisfaction with relying on graphics packages, saying that students don't learn the basics of graphing and statistics. I find that requiring students to have sensible ranges and interim ticks on graphs means that they must master the basics of graphing, even when using a graphics package. With regard to curve fitting, choosing the type of fit gives them a feel for different types of functional variations. Hurrah for statistics packages of all sorts!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 22:05:23 EDT From: "KEITH J. SCHRAY" Subject: Paper 8 short question response-Fox Charles Fox inquires as to the cost to students(companies).... Tuition is $500/credit hour compared to $650/hr on site. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 21:58:05 EDT From: "KEITH J. SCHRAY" Subject: Paper 8 discussion- O'Haver ,Abrahamson Tom asked a question about whiteboard vs. camera. I've been tied up in a teachers workshop here today...hence the late night response. But Abrahamson is describing precisely the system we use and the response of the students is the same. Tom figured out what I did this morning- sent responses to listserv. It didn't like that and so "flushed" me- such a descriptive word. I then figured out what I did wrong ( you have to flush me to get my attention). So I sent the responses to chemconf. When it didn't bounce themI thought they had gone through- I figured the right hand of the system didn't know what the left had done. Apparently it did.So here they come again I hope. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 22:01:16 EDT From: "KEITH J. SCHRAY" Subject: Paper 8 short question response- Zielinski Theresa Zielinski 1. The statistics cited are partly from Future Supply amd Demand in Academic Institutions Porceedings of 1990 Workshop: Commission on Professionals in Science and Technology, Ed. B. Vetter, Washington, DC, March, 1990. and Chemical and Engineering News, 69(20), 29-30, May 20, 1991 On checking these I find my approximations a little rough- in 1979 the BS grads in chemistry were 11,501. The latest number is an estimate based on a survey of sophomores in 1991 which yielded a number of 5200 for 1993(unpublished but by ACS). My colleague is still looking for the source off the numbers of students interested in going on in graduate work- oobviously an ACS source (Heindel is well connected there) and I will send it on when he gets it. 2. Nonchemists doing chemistry is supported by anecdotal evidence only. 3.I will send you the P-chem syllabus under separate cover but it is the first P-chem course taken by chemistry and chemical engineering majors. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 22:04:14 EDT From: "KEITH J. SCHRAY" Subject: Paper 8 short question response-Coe Doug Coe, 1. Concerning Lehigh's course numbering scheme....I'm not sure it makes any sense but you probably refer to the mix of 300 and 400. Strictly graduate courses at Lehigh are 400 level (undergrads are 000-399). For many years it was difficult for undergrads to take 400 courses and often a graduate course was numbered 300 to facilitate this. 2. There are a number of sub-disciplines at Lehigh, of course, whose courses are not offered on satellite. Organic and analytical were chosec in consultation with the charter coompanise. In the fall we will begin the addition of six additionsl courses to support a concentration which can be called bio-organic. Nothing further is planned although we are looking at short courses. 3. The sequences required by prerequisites are: 358< 458r< 451, 455 with 458s and 394 nnot requiring prerequisites and 332< 432,433, 488 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 22:02:23 EDT From: "KEITH J. SCHRAY" Subject: Paper 8 short question response- Long George Long raises the following subjects: 1. Concerning using interactive computer worksheets( mathematica) instead of a satellite link... Two points: The lehigh Board of Trustees has the requirement that courses be live with two-way communication live. I'm not familiar with mathematica but I wouldn't know how this would be practical for a lecture format course which most of these coures are. 2Concerning the types of research projects selected--- The research aspects of the program are just beginning. But based on past (limited) experience with off-site research by part-time local students and the early returns of this program, projects arise from the student and professor having a shared research interest and a high mutual interest factor.I fully expect some broadening of research efforts by flexible faculty because they can explore areas for free- manpower and supplies come free for researchof interest. IN this day of hard to get funding this could be like dying and going to heaven if it is work that fits your own current interests or leads in promising new directions. Some instrumentation capabilities are mmore specialized at the company site and represents an opportunity to the faculty. But it's very early. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 21:59:54 EDT From: "KEITH J. SCHRAY" Subject: Paper 8 short questions response-Rosenthal Don Rosenthal asks questions on the following: 1a.Courses meet either 3 times a week for 50 minutes or twice for 75 minutes- our standard arrangement. Most are going with the twice a week format. 1b. About how much time is spent in lecture, problem solving, discussion it is difficult to generalize but... The average is probably about 90% lecture and 10% interaction of some kind. Some courses becooooome very interactive, up to 50% but the majority are not excpt in response to questions. About half the courses involve extensive homework, half rely only on exams. Homework is Fed-exed. Virtually all courses have a text but usually involve outside reading, articles, etc. Extensive handouts are used in the courses which are not or marginally textbook based. 1c. Off-site questions come like a voice from heaven- quite startling, really. They are screened and queued by a satellite technician but essentially they just arrive. 1d.On-site to offsite student ratios are as follows for example: 10:18, 2:23, 40:20, 4:6. All over the block with a higher number of satellite students predooominating. The big factor is how many on-site students there are and since Lehigh has a typical 15 student entering graduate class, that tends to be small unless undergrads are in the class. With 2or 3 students in the class I tend to talk to the camera, with 10 students in the classroom I tend to talk to the class. 1e. Concerning course evaluations. Satellite students prefer data presented directly while on-site students prefer board work. Everyone likes prepared handouts of material but satellite students very strongly- they can'tlook over at another section of the board so getting behind is more serious- the camera gives them tunnel vision. Material taken from the mmonitor can't be seen again-except on tape. The satellite students are significantly older- more aggressive and more mature, even in their judgements. On-site students are quieter and more attentive in televised than in local- only classes...Big Brother is watching you syndrome. 2. Lehigh requires synchronous teaching (live), a Trustee rule so taped courses as the standard would not be allowed under the present situation. The tapes are used quite a bit both on-site and off-site for missed classes and to review material. I think it is great for students and that we should do it for all courses. I realize that potentially it could(probably?) occur that students would skip lectures and could create problems but I'd love to try it and see how much problem it is because tapes help students a lot. I think that we are in a partially asynchronous mode and would like to go further. 3.E-mail is used outside of class although students tend to use phone and voice-mail(including cooooonference calls) more. I think your suggestion of a listserv is excellent because out of class questions should ideally be open to everyone. I wonder if there's a phone conversation equivalent. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 11:20:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 8 - Discussion Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 10:30:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 8 discussion > Since 1991, the University of Maryland System has been operating a > interactive compressed video network between several widely > separated sites throughout the state. To date, class offerings > include selected advanced undergraduate and graduate courses in > Chemistry . . . . > Tom O'Haver > U. of Maryland * Which graduate and undergraduate courses in chemistry have been offered? * What enrollments has the University had in these chemistry courses? * Are these courses taught as part of an on-site course? * DO ANY OTHER PARTICIPANTS TEACH AT SCHOOLS WHERE SUCH COURSES ARE * TAUGHT? IF SO, PLEASE DESCRIBE THE FORMAT AND CONTENT. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 21:59:54 EDT From: "KEITH J. SCHRAY" Subject: Paper 8 short questions response-Rosenthal > 1d.On-site to offsite student ratios are as follows for example: > 10:18, 2:23, 40:20, 4:6. * It must be strange lecturing to two students and having 23 remote * students participating. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- * Does Lehigh have a long-term commitment to the Satellite M.S. program * or is this viewed as a short-term experiment? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- * In my opinion it is unfortunate that you are locked in to LIVE * courses. If your figure of 90% lecture and 10% discussion is * typical, it seems to me that asynchronous courses might provide * as much or more discussion and attract more participants. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 15:31:01 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Re: paper 6 discussion In message Judith Faye Rubinson writes: > A number of people have expressed dissatisfaction with relying on graphics > packages, saying that students don't learn the basics of graphing and > statistics. I find that requiring students to have sensible ranges and > interim > ticks > on > graphs means that they must master the basics of graphing, even when using a > graphics package. With regard to curve fitting, choosing the type of fit > gives > them a feel for different types of functional variations. Hurrah for > statistics > packages of all sorts!!! > I could not agree more. I believe that the student should learn manual graphing at the very basic level early on and then use computer graphics. They have come a long way since the cryptic days of main frame graphing with all the control codes and cards. One thing it eliminates to some degree is the computatiuonal errors especially with semi-log plots. I always require students to do both ln Y xs X and a semilog plot of Y vs X and calculate the slope for the true exponential expression ie y = Ae^(sX). This helps them to understand logs vs ln, and what a semi-log plot is. It is amazing how many leave out the factor of 2.303. Some 10-15 years ago there was a paper in J Phys. Chem, I think, which reviewed about 10 years of kinetics papers and found that ~20% had forgotten the 2.3 in the calculation of Activation energy, presumably these were from hand drawn plots. I can't find the reference but will look. This same error was done in a classic review of vitamin degradation in the food science literature in the 50's, and the wrong Ea value was used for 15 years in textbooks until a colleague of mine and I wrote a new chapter and I reviewed the old lit and found the error. We need both methods but the software packages should eliminate some of the errors. If used as noted above, it is like hand drawing and prevents some very stupid graphs from being published, for example someone samples at 61, 132, 184 and 206 hours and that is the tick marks on the X axis. This was quite common in somew of the older literature. Dr Ted Labuza Department of Food Science and Nutrition 136 ABLMS University of Minnesota St. Paul MN 55108 Voice 612-624-9701 or Home 612-633-8928 Fax 612-625-5272 or Home Fax 612-633-0627 There is no such thing as a poverty of time, rather there is a poverty of being able to say "NO". ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 15:31:06 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Paper 6 discussion From: "Ted Labuza" Date: Sun, Jul 18, 1993 9:35 AM To: bagaddis@uccs.edu Subject: Re: paper 6 discussion evaluation In message <0096F98D.18E0F7A0.5573@happy.uccs.edu> writes: > I am interested in the concept of the take-home or open-book exams and have > integrated quizzes in this format to my general chem classes. I found that > many of the students' papers were identical. Cooperative learning can > be successful. But how do you stop the blatent copying? Do you do all > takehoem/open book tests? > Barbara Gaddis > U.C.C.S. > Colorado Springs, CO > I only do the all take home exams at the graduate student level and design the exam such that despite the mathematical calculations, the written discussion of the results is the critical part. I state emphatically at the start that any plagerism will be dealt with an F in the course, this is agreed on by the students by signing a form on the front of the exam, they must use my exam form. It states " I agree that the written material turned in is my own work and I have received no help from anyone unless specified by the instructor". Generally I note that they can get help from anyone other than course mates as that is what they would do in the real world on a job. I have had only one case of a violation of this in the past ten years. On homework I let them work together and then hand in their own work, that in many cases is the same and if someone did not do anything but copy I will find out when I give an in-class open book exam. I keep the homewortk at no more than 40% of the grade and thus if homework is the building process then the exams and class discussion are the evaluation. In this way I get away from the numerical grades of a 30-50 being a A. Generally I grade at the grad and undergrad level with a A=85%, B=75%, C=60% and D=50%. It seems to have worked well. By the way, I gave a paper last week at the annual meeting of the Institute of Food Technologists, a 25,000 professional membership. My paper was on the logistic hurdles of introducing quantitative skills into food science courses because of its inherent biological nature. I would be willing to share the Power Point slide set with anyone if you leave me an email message. I intend to write it up in the next few months. Or I can ftp it to the Maryland gopher site. Dr Ted Labuza Department of Food Science and Nutrition 136 ABLMS University of Minnesota St. Paul MN 55108 Voice 612-624-9701 or Home 612-633-8928 Fax 612-625-5272 or Home Fax 612-633-0627 There is no such thing as a poverty of time, rather there is a poverty of being able to say "NO". ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 08:22:00 EDT From: Nava Ben Zvi <201226@UMDD.BITNET> Subject: Re: paper 6 discussion In-Reply-To: Message received on Fri, 16 Jul 93 19:07:44 EDT regarding ted Labuza"s comment: are you THe Ted Labuzah of the World of Chemistry series? please tell me Nava Ben Zvi 201226@umdd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 09:33:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 8 - Discussion In-Reply-To: <9307181522.AA22330@umd5.umd.edu> Re: interactive compressed video network > Which graduate and undergraduate courses in chemistry have been offered? > What enrollments has the University had in these chemistry courses? > Are these courses taught as part of an on-site course? To my knowledge the only chemistry course that has been offered on the U. of Maryland Interactive Video network is Chem 723: Marine Geochemistry, a graduate class with a rather small enrollment. Undrgraduate classes have been offered in several other departments, but not chemistry. The reason this particular course if offered is that it involves faculty and graduate students who are working at the Chesapeake Biological Lab At Solomons Island, Maryland, and Horn Point Environmental Lab, Cambridge, Maryland, whcih are some distance from the main campus at College Park where the chemistry department resides. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland College Park ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 12:48:49 EDT From: "KEITH J. SCHRAY" Subject: Paper 8 discussion- O'Haver questions Tom asks which courses have been offered. The full course offerings are listed in the table of the analytical and organic concentrations and the first semester P-chem course. We are still in the first time thru so not all courses have been offered yet. So that means 358,458r, 458s, 451, 394, 432,332, 475,433 and and advanced polymers and a clinical course. Also the p-chem. On-site students take these courses- they are simply our regular courses beamed up Scottie. A few presentation changes due to tv but basically unchanged in content or when we offer them(ie what semester). We limited the satellite enrollment to 80 students and originally were offering two courses in each concentration which works out to 20 stucents per course if they take only one per semester and that is just about what we find. As we go to a one course per track format then I expect that we will have about 40 per course. K.J. Schray ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 15:29:06 -0400 From: Richard Jarosch Subject: Re: PAPER 7 - ANSWERS TO AUTHOR'S QUESTIONS In-Reply-To: your message of Fri Jul 16 12:26:07 -0500 1993 Regarding the author's question on gradebooks; one that I have used for a number of years and highly recommend is GradeGuide by Jon Kane, 2814 Regent St., Madison, WI 53705-5218. It is shareware, in its 4th version, and costs about $40 to register (much less for bulk purchases/site licenses). It should be available by ftp (although I haven't tried) from one of the Internet shareware servers, or of course from the author at the address above. rjarosch@uwcmail.uwc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 15:57:51 EDT From: "KEITH J. SCHRAY" Subject: Paper 8 discussion Rosenthal question Don, First of all it is strange to have class with 2 live and 23 remote, but it's better than 0 live and no feedback at all. I did that when taping a session on research interests that we sent them for information purposes by videotape. Lehigh is definitely in this for the long haul. The administration is very much behind this effort and 90% of the faculty are in favor. The biggest questions center on the research component and how the matches, secrecy aspects, quality of research will work out.We are adding another concentration and 6 more courses and have the sequence planned to the year 2000. I agree that being able to go to a mix a live and asynchronous would be good. Maybe we'll wear them down. That was a rule created for circumstances different from this. We just need to move them( trustees) to a mixed format with some required % of live. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 16:34:39 -0400 From: "Keith M. Wellman" Subject: Re: PAPER 7 - ANSWERS TO AUTHOR'S QUESTIONS Regarding gradebook software, we also use "GradeGuide" by Jon Kane for our 600 or so General Chem students. The person, Prof Bill Purcell, who uses it is very pleased with it. Keith Wellman KWELLMAN@UMIAMI ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 10:00:39 -0400 From: Paul Edwards Subject: Paper 9 - Brooks Professor Brooks' paper does indeed have much food for thought; it has certainly had my head spinning for days. I suspect all would agree that the computer is a tool which has dramatically changed the way scientists function. Certainly education in science ought to reflect the computer as a tool of the profession. Indeed, as Professor Brooks argues, we should act as models using computers has much as possible as would a professional chemist. I would go further by claiming that professional applications can be integrated very naturally into the curriculum, and I suspect most of us participating in this conference are already doing as much of that as we can. I also plead guilty to not having as much training as I wish. Unfortunately, I, like so many others functioning under tightening budgets, am not optimistic about the results of a search for release time. However, I think this situation can be turned around into a very healthy learning situation for both faculty and students. We can learn from them! Do faculty have to be molecular mechanics experts before asking advanced students to do a modeling exercise described in J. Chem. Ed.? Or, can we give them the software and the article, and let them figure it out? Isn't that what we are training them to be able to do? Isn't that what an employer or a graduate adviser is going to expect of them in the not too distant future? Finally, I am torn by Professor Brooks' closing thought that the existence of a tool is evidence the skill is not worthy of being taught, particularly with respect to first year chemistry. We certainly do ask especially non-majors to do some calculations they may never see again. Maybe students would focus more on the concepts if we took the emphasis off the calculations by providing computational tools. Equation solvers could be used to avoid some of the simplifying assumptions routinely made. CHEMED-L readers need only recall the recent discussion of the Henderson-Hasselbach equation! But I don't believe the existence of a tool pedagogically negates the need for that skill! I am not excited about balancing equations using numerical methods which mask oxidation-reduction chemistry and the notions of half-reactions which follow. I suspect we would be giving in to students with weak math skills if we were to provide tools for rearranging PV=nRT. I hope we don't make the same mistake with computers that we did with calculators. That battle was over a long time ago, so I'm not trying to restart it, but some of us aren't too happy about the outcome. How many of us deep down inside are a little sick when a student grabs a calculator to divide 25 by 2 and multiply that result by 100? And it isn't just us old fuddy-duddies; a young whipper-snapper in our physics department requires students in his modern physics class to do calculations by hand. The appropriateness of the tool must be considered! I don't think it is unfair to ask a student to use a Periodic Table to calculate the molar mass of sulfuric acid instead of a computer. Paul Edwards edwardsp@evax.edinboro.edu Edinboro University of PA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 16:19:12 MSD From: "Laser Chemistry Dept., MSU" Subject: Paper 9 - Special training can hardly help us. This paper is very interesting for any educator. David W. Brooks shares his wide practical experience which has great value not only in the USA but also, say, in Russia. The author raises some questions that hardly have a unique answer but makes one to think a lot on the problem. Let me comment out only one point. David W. Brooks writes in his paper: > The purpose of this paper is to emphasize the seriousness of > the training problem. We have to begin with ourselves, not > our students. One can hardly disagree with this statement. But his conclusion ("Ask For Released Time!") is more doubtful. Yes, computers and their software are simply more powerful tools like calculators. Almost every new tool changes the world around us. Phones changed it, and TV, and now computers... Did we need a special released time to train using TV? or calculators? It seems to me that efforts made in training faculty rarely produce sufficient outcome. When an educator is ready to accept new tools (s)he accepts it and begins to use. Otherwise either the tool is not good enough or the person has come to its limit in accepting new knowledge. Vassili S. Lyutsarev Chemical faculty, Moscow state university, Russia. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 09:40:24 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Special training can hardly help us. In response to Vassili S. Lyutsarev's comments about faculty release time, I agree to a certain extent: when the faculty wants to learn to use the technology they will do so, regardless of having release time or not. To set aside special release time to learn a task has not seemed to work. But I feel an important part of learning any new technology is having resources around to ask questions. We are all capable of learning; but when it comes to new tasks frequently there is no one around to ask for help. How do the rest of you handle teaching faculty how to use computers, software programs, etc.? Do you have an academic computing department that is useful here? We are fortunate in our department to have two computer junkies who love learning and teaching others. Without their help, I fear the rest of us would be lost. Do you have any suggestions for others - how do you get the help you need in order to master a skill? (Many companies do have technical support. But the quality of this support and the time it takes to obtain this support varies greatly from company to company. I was thinking of in-house support.) Barbara Gaddis U.C.C.S. Colorado Springs, CO ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 09:54:42 -0600 From: "David A. Boyles" Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Special training can hardly help us. I appreciate hearing from and respect Vassili S. Lyutsarev's opinion. Among the three-pronged responsibilities of research, teaching, and campus committee work (not to mention all the odd jobs of faculty in chemistry "service" departments at an engineering college), however, there must yet be a place for professional development of faculty. Whether journal reading or learning new computer skills is involved, both require time. If a department is to have faculty capable of training students, the administration must value the professional development of its faculty and demonstrate this value by allowing time for professional development. In this context I agree with Brooks that we must train ourselves. David A. Boyles South Dakota School of Mines and Technology Rapid City, SD 57701 dboydboyles@silver.sdsmt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 10:24:26 -0700 From: Stephen Lower Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks Congratulations to David Brooks for a stimulating and thought-provoking paper. I share Paul Edwards' difficulty in agreeing with the last part of the paper, but perhaps we are reading more into it than David intended. The problem I see with faculty training is that only a minority seem to be "trainable"; witness the great difficulty many institutions face in trying to get faculty members into sessions intended to help them communicate more effectively in the lecture hall. Perhaps what is most needed is a liberal early-retirement policy! Ultimately, I believe that those who feel an overwhelming need to communicate something will find the tools and take the time to do so; this is why painters paint, composers compose, authors write books. I'm not sure that "training" authors to write better textbooks will have any more lasting effect than training them to write hypercard stacks or CAI programs. Let us by all means provide encouragement and guidance for those who wish to do these things. Ultimately, however, I am not sure that it is such a bad thing that the some personal (and perhaps even professional) sacrifice is often needed to bring creative effort to fruition. It forces us to ask ourselves every day, is this really worth doing, and are we doing it the best way we know how? Anyway, a great paper! ---------- Steve Lower - Vancouver, Canada Dept of Chemistry - Simon Fraser University - Burnaby BC V5A 1S6 lower@sfu.ca 604-291-3353 FAX: 604-291-3765 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 13:56:25 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks Paul Edwards is right when he writes that: > >I suspect all would agree that the computer is a tool which has >dramatically changed the way scientists function. Certainly education >in science ought to reflect the computer as a tool of the profession. >Indeed, as Professor Brooks argues, we should act as models using >computers has much as possible as would a professional chemist. I would >go further by claiming that professional applications can be integrated >very naturally into the curriculum, and I suspect most of us >participating in this conference are already doing as much of that as we >can. > >I also plead guilty to not having as much training as I wish. >Unfortunately, I, like so many others functioning under tightening >budgets, am not optimistic about the results of a search for release >time. However, I think this situation can be turned around into a very >healthy learning situation for both faculty and students. We can learn >from them! > >Do faculty have to be molecular mechanics experts before asking advanced >students to do a modeling exercise described in J. Chem. Ed.? Or, can >we give them the software and the article, and let them figure it out? >Isn't that what we are training them to be able to do? Isn't that what >an employer or a graduate adviser is going to expect of them in the not >too distant future? > Right On. Why shouldn't we learn from our undergrads in the same manner as we learn from our grads. If we adopted the leave proposal, everyone would be taking a research sabbatical and a computer leave such that there would be nobody left to teach. A training leave will leave the person who required it trained for the product or computer that was out of date by the time they got to the point of having to use it. Unless you are committed to continual self training on computing techniques and software, a leave will not help -- I've seen it in seeing what happens to colleagues who have tried this vs my view that faculty members have the same capability as our students, and we tell prospective employers that we've trained our students to learn. A leave for afaculty member or they don't use computers is a cop-out. That suggests a faculty colleague that I'd rather not have. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 12:52:24 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper9 discussion I agree that this is a good, thought provoking paper. I agree with the strong thread in the discussion that released time is not the answer. Someone raised the point about calculating the molecular weight of sulfuric acid. This is a good example. We can all agree that freshman students should be able to do this with nothing more than the chemical formula and a periodic table. But in practice if I needed it I would use a computer program that I wrote myself called PERIOD which has in it current atomic weights of all the elements and which can go on to mole fraction calculations for the three or four materials it has just gotten molecular weights for. One needs the fundamental technique if only to test the computer programming, and one needs the convenience and accuracy of good computer tools as well. I would be happy if all the students here got B's or better in freshman chemistry using Brook's stoichiometry program. At least in physical chemistry, offering the students a good tool enables me to cover more material better. I used to spend a lot of time on getting values for equilibrium constants from tables of the Planck function (Also called the free energy function). Now I show them how to use a program which takes a data table and calculates all the thermodynamic variables for the materials in the table at any temperature and pressure specified. They can use H and S, G, or Planck function values to get the equilibrium constants, it doesn't matter. No interpolation is needed any longer, since data files with good heat capacity equations are better than the JANAF tables. I insist that the students be able to test the computer output against the differential expressions, since this is needed to check the programming: Show that dG/dT = -S. However it appears that integral calculus is no longer a needed skill (except us programmers need to be able to program integrals of polynomials). The program is PHF.EXE. Since I have used it in courses here, I am sure Montana State University will claim it. I can ask if they will let me send it to you free. I certainly agree with released time for programmers. My personal situation is that I would have no hope of persuading my administration to grant released time for programming. On the other hand they think they can save money by persuading me to retire. I have agreed, and in the near future I will have some programming time. I need to know exactly what you want. I know the three most basic requirements: 1. Good programs. 2. Very easy to use. One should aim for something a fifth grader can learn to use on her own in less than two hours. A ten page manual is acceptable. 3. Growing. There must be a procedure for updating and improving the programs we use in teaching. One possibility is shareware. Sincerely, Reed Howald ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 15:42:20 -0400 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Special training can hardly help us. Jack Martin Miller writes; If we adopted the leave proposal, everyone would be taking a research sabbatical and a computer leave such that there would be nobody left to teach. A training leave will leave the person who required it trained for the product or computer that was out of date by the time they got to the point of having to use it. Unless you are committed to continual self training on computing techniques and software, a leave will not help. I agree, but continual self training takes time as well. Given a limited amount time, it will always be necessary to cut corners when applying computer technology to the classroom. Perhaps we can all agree that, as David Boyles says " There must yet be a place for professional development of faculty. " and as a response to the significant change communication technology has created in education, more time should be allocated to faculty for this endeavour than has been typical at smaller universities. Finally, Paul Edwards Writes; Do faculty have to be molecular mechanics experts before asking advanced students to do a modeling exercise described in J. Chem. Ed.? Or, can we give them the software and the article, and let them figure it out? Isn't that what we are training them to be able to do? Isn't that what an employer or a graduate adviser is going to expect of them in the not too distant future? I agree, and I have actually done this. It was possible to learn more about the software (MOBY), and was a worthwhile experience. However the students perceived this method as a lack of organization on my part. Several unhappy students mentioned that Dr. Long was helpful, but seemed to be learning the software as he went (actually as they experienced difficulties I had never encountered). They felt I should have anticipated their problems or have been able to fix them easily. While I can rationalize this by saying that the students will be better off in the long run, I still have bad student evaluations for this lab. George Long Indiana Univ. of PA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 16:16:56 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: paper9 discussion I am very interested in your program PHF.EXE and would like to try a copy in the PCHEM class/ Barbara Gaddis U.C.C.S. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 19:57:18 EDT From: Allan Smith Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Special training can hardly help us. In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Jul 1993 16:19:12 MSD from I too have noticed that my chemistry colleagues learn from each other about new software of potential use in their teaching. A few key staff people are critical - the Arts& Sciences' college Electronics Shop head keeps us up to date on our local area network and its email system (this has really cahnged the way we communicate, and has made us a bit more civil towards each other than in face-to-face faculty meetings). Noticeably absent from the list of people helpful in learning about computer software are the computer science faculty; somehow the notion of applied computing is beneath them. But I too have gnawing doubts about time allocation whenever I am attracted - or compelled - to learn a new package or classroom presentation technology. Word processing has substantially increased for me the number of incomplete research manuscripts with which I am dealing. And a Macintosh security package called Fileguard, which was installed in our MAc cluster in the p. chem lab to make system maintenaance easier for the three faculty who do it, has now become a major obstacle because someone tried to outsmart it. Fileguard retaliated by making the hard disk almost impossible to access. Thank God for tech support numbers. Allan Smith, Chemistry Dept. Drexel University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 05:07:46 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Special training can hardly help us. Barbara Gaddis writes: > In response to Vassili S. Lyutsarev's comments about faculty release time, I > agree to a certain extent: when the faculty wants to learn to use the > technology they will do so, regardless of having release time or not. To set > aside special release time to learn a task has not seemed to work. But I > feel an important part of learning any new technology is having resources > around to ask questions. We are all capable of learning; but when it comes > to new tasks frequently there is no one around to ask for help. How do the > rest of you handle teaching faculty how to use computers, software programs, > etc.? Do you have an academic computing department that is useful here? We > are fortunate in our department to have two computer junkies who love > learning and teaching others. Without their help, I fear the rest of us > would be lost. Do you have any suggestions for others - how do you get the > help you need in order to master a skill? (Many companies do have > technical support. But the quality of this support and the time it takes > to obtain this support varies greatly from company to company. I was > thinking of in-house support.) > Barbara Gaddis > U.C.C.S. > Colorado Springs, CO > The Univ of Minnesdota has a large CIS department puts on continuous short courses that help to bring people up to speed, and a newsletter that has software reviews to let us know what is out thereww. They also have a lab where we can go to try new software and hardware, so there is much support. However I find the best support is one on one with someone who has tried a new tool. I am one of those computer junkies that likes to help others come up to speed. If everyone is in he fast lane then we all do a better job. In response to another question, I like the idea of forced early retirement for poor teachers, but with tenure it just won't work. When tenure is basically controlled by research, teaching will always play seciond fiddle. We still need a better negative reward than allowing the poor teachers not to teach and then adding the burden on the good teachers, especially in this era of reduced support. Dr Ted Labuza Department of Food Science and Nutrition 136 ABLMS University of Minnesota St. Paul MN 55108 Voice 612-624-9701 or Home 612-633-8928 Fax 612-625-5272 or Home Fax 612-633-0627 There is no such thing as a poverty of time, rather there is a poverty of being able to say "NO". ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 07:45:31 -0400 From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks In-Reply-To: <9307201829.AA03905@umd5.umd.edu> Jack Martin Miller writes: > A training leave will leave the person who required it trained > for the product or computer that was out of date by the time > they got to the point of having to use it. For this reason I believe that it is important to stress conceptual knowledge of the general principles more than procedural knowledge of specific products. Granted, you have to have some procedural knowledge to get things to work, but in the long run it's the conceptual knowledge of general principles that lasts. The important thing is to realize that there IS a conceptual base to computer operation and applications; it's not ALL procedural. You might not think so, looking at all the books that stress procedure. Once you begin to understand the principles, then you can begin to contruct your own procedures without depending on detailed and impossible-to-remember instructions for everything. Modern computing environments have demonstrated how a common conceptual base extending across all applications and peripheral devices can greatly simplify learning new programs and adding new hardware. What are the important concepts? Here's my list: The concept of a file and file type; the difference between a text and a binary file; between RAM and disk memory; between an application and a document; between a text editor, a word processor, and a desktop publishing (page layout) program; between a tab stop and a tab character; between spreadsheet and equation solvers; between a symbolic algebra program and a numeric analysis program; between plain text and formatted text; between a compiler and an interpreter; between machine language and assembly language; between serial and parallel; between digital and analog interfacing; the digital representation of a continuous analog signal by sampling; scaling, linear transformation, and calibration; the different ways to transfer data between programs and operating systems and platforms; the concept of the clipboard and copy and paste; the difference between raster and vector graphics; between screen resolution and printer resolution; between a client and a server; between a host and a local system, between local area and wide area networks; between network hardware and network protocols; between modem dialup, direct RS-232 connection, and a network connection; the principles of telecommunication; the common features af all terminal programs; the main classes of Internet tools. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 08:22:05 -0400 From: JOHN WOOLCOCK Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks I like Tom O'Haver's list. It also is an excellent start at answering the question of what computer skills/knowledge our students should have to effectively use computers in chemistry courses posed eariler in the conference. John C. Woolcock Chemistry Department Indiana University of PA Indiana, PA 15705 Interent: WOOLCOCK@grove.iup.edu Bitnet: WOOLCOCK@IUP ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:29:09 -0400 From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks In-Reply-To: <9307211235.AA11484@umd5.umd.edu> Paul Edwards writes: > Maybe students would focus more on the concepts if > we took the emphasis off the calculations by providing > computational tools. A number of studies have shown that the ability of students to work quantitative problems correctly in not proof that they really understand the underlying concepts. (For example, look at the paper earlier this year in J. Chem. Educ. by Mary Nakhleh of Purdue Univ). If allowed to do so, students can learn procedures for solving problems without necessarily coming to grips with the conceptual basis. If our examinations reward quick and accurate manual problem solving, then the successful students will have proven simply that they are quick and accurate manual problem solvers. Is that enough? Do we teach problem solving to support conceptual understanding or simply to produce good manual problem solvers? > I am not excited about balancing equations using numerical > methods which mask oxidation-reduction chemistry and the notions > of half-reactions which follow. I suspect we would be giving in > to students with weak math skills if we were to provide tools for > rearranging PV=nRT. Should students use tools such as equation solvers and numerical methods that automate tasks that have traditionally been performed manually? I think it should be like arithmetic on a calculator; of course we should teach how to do simple problems by hand, but we should also teach how to use an appropriate computer tool to work serious industrial-strength problems as well. I would argue that students will learn more from setting up problems "from scratch" for automated solution using computer tools, rather than simply using templates or dedicated single-purpose programs that have been pre-programmed. I am not excited about rearranging PV=nRT - and I suspect that many students may share that sentiment - but I found it kind of fun to set it up on an equation solver and watch it crank. A student that knows how to do that can also solve more realistic and challenging problems that CAN'T or shouldn't be done by hand. But you can't forget hand calculations; after all, you have to check to see that the computer is right! Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:35:27 -0400 From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks In-Reply-To: <9307211235.AA11484@umd5.umd.edu> Vassili Lyutsarev writes: > Did we need a special released time to train > using TV? or calculators? Indeed not. But I for one find computers more challenging than TV, and also very much more interesing and empowering. Taking time for professional development may be necessary, but it does not always require that we ask for released time. There are many useful 1-3 day workshops available at national and regional meetings, and during the summer there are usually several residential workshop programs (e.g. those supported by NSF) that one can apply for. I myself got my start in computing in one such workshop run by Sam Perone at Purdue Univ. back in the 1970's. But, as Dave Brooks points out, such experiences will not have any long term effect unless they are followed up by a personal commitment adopt computer as a personal tool for professinal use. > When an educator is ready to accept new tools > (s)he accepts it and begins to use. Otherwise either the tool is not > good enough or the person has come to its limit in accepting new > knowledge. That's a good point. Some people are easily "turned off" by excessively agressive techno-evangelism. And some people will never change. Thomas S. Kuhn, the MIT philosopher of science, said in his wonderful book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" that "...scientific training is not well designed to produce the [person] who will easily discover a fresh approach. But so long as someone appears with a new candidate for paradigm - usually a young [person] or one new to the field - the loss due to rigidity accrues only to the individual. Given a generation in which to effect the change, individual rigidity is compatible with a community that can switch from paradigm to paradigm when the occasion demands." Max Planck once said that a new idea "...does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:34:44 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Jul 1993 07:45:31 -0400 from What a fantastic list!!!! See below On Wed, 21 Jul 1993 07:45:31 -0400 Thomas C. O'Haver said: >Jack Martin Miller writes: > >> A training leave will leave the person who required it trained >> for the product or computer that was out of date by the time >> they got to the point of having to use it. > >For this reason I believe that it is important to stress >conceptual knowledge of the general principles more than >procedural knowledge of specific products. Granted, you have to >have some procedural knowledge to get things to work, but in the >long run it's the conceptual knowledge of general principles >that lasts. The important thing is to realize that there IS a >conceptual base to computer operation and applications; it's not >ALL procedural. You might not think so, looking at all the >books that stress procedure. Once you begin to understand the >principles, then you can begin to contruct your own procedures >without depending on detailed and impossible-to-remember >instructions for everything. Modern computing environments have >demonstrated how a common conceptual base extending across all >applications and peripheral devices can greatly simplify >learning new programs and adding new hardware. I would add one which is both procedural and conceptual, and which has a profound influence on usage--GUI (Mac & Windows) vs. character-based interface (DOS, etc.). > >What are the important concepts? Here's my list: The concept of >a file and file type; the difference between a text and a binary >file; between RAM and disk memory; between an application and a >document; between a text editor, a word processor, and a desktop >publishing (page layout) program; between a tab stop and a tab >character; between spreadsheet and equation solvers; between a >symbolic algebra program and a numeric analysis program; between >plain text and formatted text; between a compiler and an >interpreter; between machine language and assembly language; >between serial and parallel; between digital and analog >interfacing; the digital representation of a continuous analog >signal by sampling; scaling, linear transformation, and >calibration; the different ways to transfer data between >programs and operating systems and platforms; the concept of the >clipboard and copy and paste; the difference between raster and >vector graphics; between screen resolution and printer >resolution; between a client and a server; between a host and a >local system, between local area and wide area networks; between >network hardware and network protocols; between modem dialup, >direct RS-232 connection, and a network connection; the >principles of telecommunication; the common features af all >terminal programs; the main classes of Internet tools. > >Tom O'Haver >U. of Maryland Let's not be too generous about communicating such information. It's taken me 20 years to understand this stuff. ;-> Thanks, Tom, for the great summary. Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:44:24 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:29:09 -0400 from On Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:29:09 -0400 Thomas C. O'Haver said: >by hand. But you can't forget hand calculations; after all, you have >to check to see that the computer is right! > >Tom O'Haver >U. of Maryland I thought the computer was always right! ;-) Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:57:18 EDT From: "Swamy (K.R. Subbaswamy)" Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Jul 93 09:51:59 EDT from Yes, I am familiar with Kuhn's book; in fact I own it. Don't you? It is a nice little paperback. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:58:18 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Special training can hardly help us. George Long writes > >I agree, but continual self training takes time as well. Given a limited >amount time, it will always be necessary to cut corners when applying >computer technology to the classroom. Perhaps we can all agree that, as >David Boyles says " There must yet be a place for professional development of >faculty. " and as a response to the significant change communication >technology has created in education, more time should be allocated to faculty >for this endeavour than has been typical at smaller universities. > AT least in my "small university" though I guess we are no longer fit the definition of 'small' in a 10 member department, release time has not been the problem. The problem is bsed on first hand knowledge of individuals, and not only in my department, or university for that mater, that those who have taken release time for learning chemical computing and writing teaching software have not produced anything worthwhile - Apple II programs when DOS and Macs were taking over, and DOS programs when Mac and Windows began to dominate. Existing sharewarer was available that did better jobs than their programs, but having spent all this time writing software, they were neither up to date on software, or on their research which they let lapse to do the former. Let me offer a different model which I have seen be successful in many real cases. Encourage a faculty member to learn about computing as an aid to their research - then their graduate students or undergraduate project students provide the impetus, help with the development, help with the training of the faculty member etc.When computing becomes indispensable to the research it naturally flows into teaching. Every effective user of computers in my department got into it by first having computers become indispensible to research. Someone asked a question yesterday about how to bring in expertise. Let me give an example of what happens if you talk to people on your campus. Last week we held a workshop for users of one particular manufactuers mass spectrometry data systems. The corporate software product-manager led the workshop. A beta version of new networkable software was demonstrated, but it was not yet ready to demonstrate over a network, since they thought it would take 10-12 hours to set up. One question to the UNIX guru in Computer User Services, and with the help of the Network administrator from Computer Science mycoordinator of analytical services and I had the software running on four different workstations from two manufactuers, on an X-terminal and on a PC in X-emulation mode. This little bit of interdepartmental coorperation meant that we showed the software vendors major advantages in changing the direction they had been going with the networking and we also discovered some additional bugs which they were unaware of. The payment for a rather fun bit of network poking was some thousands of dollars of free software. Since we run our state of the art equipment in ways not designed by the manufactueres we get to grants for new equipment, get to play with the latest equipment and then it moves into the classroom. I can call up not simply nmr or mass spectrometry simulators, but actual nmr and mass spec software associated with our instrumentation and actually process real data in class anywhere on campus. That came not from wanting to do it as a pedagogical project but from wanting to get the data to my desk top or home Mac to write papers in the most convenient fashion. What I have is far better than any nmr simulator that I've seen. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 10:31:12 -0400 From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks In-Reply-To: <9307211420.AA18050@umd5.umd.edu> Jim Holler says: > I would add one which is both procedural and conceptual, and which has a > profound influence on usage--GUI (Mac & Windows) vs. character-based > interface (DOS, etc.). Good, and also the difference between batch mode and interactive operation. Anyone think of other basic concepts? Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 15:22:09 MSD From: "Laser Chemistry Dept., MSU" Subject: Paper 10 - Answers to short questions PERSONAL COMPUTERS IN TEACHING PHYSICAL CHEMISTRY Aleksei A. Kubasov, Vassilii S.Lyutsarev, Kirill V.Ermakov, Chemical Faculty of Moscow State University, Moscow, Russian Republic. E-MAIL: LASER@mch.chem.msu.su ANSWERS TO SHORT QUESTIONS. Questions from Donald Rosenthal > > The advanced course in Physical Chemistry for students of > > Chemical Faculty of Moscow State University > > > Special group of students with profound studying of mathematics > > and physical chemistry ... Fundamental course of physical chemistry > > for these students ... > > QUESTION 1 > a. How many students are there in this course? > b. Are these undergraduate or graduate students? > c. If they are undergraduate students, is this the first course in > physical chemistry these students have taken, or is this an advanced > course? > d. How much chemical kinetics have they been taught prior to taking this > course? > e. How many students are there at Moscow State University? > How many undergraduate and graduate chemistry majors? > How large a chemistry faculty does the university have? There are approximately 20,000 undergraduate students at 18 faculties. Of those about 1000 are chemistry majors at Chemical faculty. They are divided in 12 groups 15-20 members each. Group number 11 has a specialty in physical chemistry. It is this group mentioned in our paper. The fundamental course of physical chemistry our students have during the 3rd year (out of 5). But, of course, while learning inorganic chemistry during the 1st year and analytical chemistry during the 2nd year they receive some basics in quantum chemistry, classical thermodynamics and kinetics. > > Reform freshman computer course. > > QUESTION 2 > a. Prior to taking your course, how much of a background in computers do the > students have? > b. Do all chemistry majors take a freshman computing course? > c. What is presently taught in the freshman computing course? Freshman computing course for all chemistry majors is held now in the first academic year (102 hr). It includes IBM PC/XT practice with word processor (ChiWriter: the most common software in the scientific laboratories of the faculty), Pascal programming (with Turbo Pascal) and an acquaintance with database uses. > d. What computing facilities are available for students generally at > Moscow State University? We have not full information about computing facilities at MSU because MSU is very large. But as we know the most wide-spread computer in it is an IBM PC compatible. At chemical faculty students have access to two computer labs: first one with 10 PC/XT machines and second with 10 PC/AT/286's. Many students also have access to IBM PCs in scientific laboratories. PCs in the computer labs are connected in LANs (separated from each other). At the present time we don't have united faculty LAN and students have no easy access to file servers or mainframes. > e. What computing facilities are available for > students taking your course? Do you have enough computers for the > number of students you are teaching? Do students routinely use > word processing? All the seminars described in this paper are held in an IBM PC/AT computer lab with 10 machines. This is not enough without any doubt. But for now chemical faculty can not give us more. It is necessary that students have wide access to a computer for individual work. But this will be only in future. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions from Theresa Julia Zielinski > Questions Paper 10 > > 1. How much math and pchem (courses/semester hours) do the > students take prior to this course? During first two years the physical chemistry students take 6 courses in math: - math analysis; - analytical geometry; - linear algebra; - differential equations; - mathematical methods in physics; - math statistics; and 4 courses in physics: - mechanics and electricity; - optics and vibrations; - theoretical mechanics and field theory; - quantum mechanics. > 2. What windows development tool is used to develop hyperbook? > (Boy would I like to work on a pchem HyperBook project) As you may know, there are some standard hypertext tools in Windows, the very first is WinHelp utility. But closer look at it revealed the lack of some features, especially what we call interactive illustrations. That is why we preferred to create our own hypertext program. We used Borland products (Borland C++ and Turbo Pascal for Windows). The hypertext system and the page editor already work. Next step is to fill them with pchem contents. > 3. I would like to have an english copy of the course topics > for the pchem course(s) that is(are) prerequisite to this > course. Sorry, but now we are not ready to present this information in English. May be, in September.. > 4. I am currently writing up a Mathcad exercise for item B1 of > your paper. It should be ready by mid August. My students > enjoy working this way to learn. they learn more and they > learn more deeply. We are very interested in and are ready to broad exchange of information and collaboration. > 5. I think that my students would enjoy the oscillating > kinetics experiment. Would you pass on one or two english > references to get me started. You may look at D.Gurel, O.Gurel. Oscillations In Chemical Reactions. Springer, 1983. or some books written by Prigogine and co-workers. > 6. What is the source of data for figures 8, 9, & 10. The data are taken from tables of pchem properties of water. If you need them, we can send you these values by e-mail. > 7. For figure 11, can students rotate and view it from > different angles. Diagrams of this type are very useful > pedagogically. Where does one get a copy of SURFER? Yes, students can set their point of view and thus look at the surface from different angles. But this is not such a real-time process as rotating molecules in modern molecular dynamics programs. SURFER is a product of Golden Software, Inc., Golden, Colorado 80401. You may try also 303-279-1021 or 1-800-333-1021. (Unfortunately, we don't know how to obtain the license to use this product in Russia and explore very old version). This package is popular in Russia because it runs easily on IBM AT/286. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 12:18:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 9 - Discussion Re: Paper 9 - Discussion of Computer Training and Needs From: Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 13:56:25 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Paul Edwards is right when he writes that: > >I suspect all would agree that the computer is a tool which has >dramatically changed the way scientists function. Certainly education >in science ought to reflect the computer as a tool of the profession. >Indeed, as Professor Brooks argues, we should act as models using >computers has much as possible as would a professional chemist. I would >go further by claiming that professional applications can be integrated >very naturally into the curriculum, and I suspect most of us >participating in this conference are already doing as much of that as we >can. >> A training leave will leave the person who required it trained >> for the product or computer that was out of date by the time >> they got to the point of having to use it. * Much of what we learn in ALL FIELDS will eventually be replaced * by new and perhaps ultimately more important ideas. * Is this a reason for not bothering to learn? * I don't believe so. If a chemist wishes to learn a high level * programming language, a word processor, a spreadsheet, graphics, * or computational methods, (s)he should obviously not choose to learn * using software that is obviously obsolete, or so complicated that * frustration will be the primary result of the experience. * * Some of Tom O'Haver's comments are pertinent: > Date: Wed. 21 Jul 1993 07:45 > .... it is important to stress conceptual knowledge of the general > principles more than procedural knowledge of specific products. * Presumably, the faculty member who is expending the time and effort * to learn word processing, etc. will use it and where appropriate * teach it to his students. He and his students will be better off * for the efforts they have expended. * Sure it would be better to use current state-of-the-art software * (provided it is reasonably user friendly), but e.g. ANY program which * performs linear least squares and provides deviations, the slope, * intercept, their standard deviations and the standard deviation * from regression is satisfactory. What the student needs to * understand is what information these statistics provide and how * the results are to be interpreted. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ TEACHER TRAINING: For a number of years the ACS Division of Chemical Education's Committee on Computers in Chemical Education have offered National Workshops designed to assist teachers learn about specific software and its use. There have been other workshops held at the Biennial Meetings. Workshops are planned for the Biennial Meeting to be held at Bucknell University in 1994. I believe workshops on spreadsheets, computational software and interfacing are planned. While these workshops only run for a few days, they do assist faculty in getting started. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:14:51 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Discussion >Re: Paper 9 - Discussion of Computer Training and Needs > >Donald Rosenthal writes: > >* Much of what we learn in ALL FIELDS will eventually be replaced >* by new and perhaps ultimately more important ideas. >* Is this a reason for not bothering to learn? >* I don't believe so. If a chemist wishes to learn a high level >* programming language, a word processor, a spreadsheet, graphics, >* or computational methods, (s)he should obviously not choose to learn >* using software that is obviously obsolete, or so complicated that >* frustration will be the primary result of the experience. >* The problem with leaves to go away and learn vs doing it continuously on your own time is that location and project often are defined well in advance - 6-12 months plus the learning curve time while on leave so that it may be 18 months from requesting the leave that you actually get down to work on something real, and if the place you've gone to on your leave is not up to date, but is still writing for the large investment of now obsolete hardware that they own, you learn all about how to do things that are a waste of time, since in the area of computing 6 months is a long time and a generation of software lasts 12-18 months. Its too easy to one or more generations behind. You say people wouldn't choose to learn something obviously obsolete, but almost every leave of the type described in this paper that I am aware of has resulted in just that! Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:18:36 EDT From: "R. T. Wilson" Subject: Paper 9 discussion Tom, you have given us a great list of things which we all should know, but it throws me into a terrible state of depression because I don't know most of it. To make matters worse, Jim Holler says it took him 20 years to learn all that stuff, and he's not going to give us any help with it. I have an uneasy feeling that Tom, Jim and Max Planck are sitting out there waiting for me to die so they can come in and take over. Tom, you're my only hope. Give me a few references or something I can chew on to get started. Don Rosenthal, you also seem to have attained enlightenment in some way. How did you do it? How about getting the ACS to put some of those short courses on the network or into some format such as this conference for the benefit of more people. Many of us, especially those from smaller schools, don't get to many of those big ACS meetings in the sky. Terrell Wilson Virginia Military Institute Lexington, Virginia 24450 {fchwilson%faculty%vmi@ist.vmi.edu} ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 14:48:00 EST From: "DR. LISA KINTNER CHEMISTRY DEPARTMENT, UPJ, JOHNSTOWN PA" Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Special training can hardly help us. With respect to special training, George Lon (Indiana University of Pa) touches on a common off-shoot, "on the job" learning and what a former collegue of mine called "built-in frustration". George quotes Paul Edwards, Finally, Paul Edwards Writes; Do faculty have to be molecular mechanics experts before asking advanced students to do a modeling exercise described in J. Chem. Ed.? Or, can we give them the software and the article, and let them figure it out? Isn't that what we are training them to be able to do? Isn't that what an employer or a graduate adviser is going to expect of them in the not too distant future? I agree, and I have actually done this. It was possible to learn more about the software (MOBY), and was a worthwhile experience. However the students perceived this method as a lack of organization on my part. Several unhappy students mentioned that Dr. Long was helpful, but seemed to be learning the software as he went (actually as they experienced difficulties I had never encountered). They felt I should have anticipated their problems or have been able to fix them easily. While I can rationalize this by saying that the students will be better off in the long run, I still have bad student evaluations for this lab. I had similar experiences my first year teaching when I also had responsibility for an advanced inorganic lab. While the students (all seniors) recognized that I was new, they still felt that I should have anticipated their problems. This points to an issue more general than the one presented in David Brook's paper. We, and our students (thought they would like to deny it) learn most of what we know because we are faced with a problem which we have to solve. Lisa Kintner Department of Chemistry University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown KINTNER@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 15:29:45 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 9 discussion Terrel Wilson writes: >Tom, you have given us a great list of things which we all should know, but it >throws me into a terrible state of depression because I don't know most of it. > To make matters worse, Jim Holler says it took him 20 years to learn all that >stuff, and he's not going to give us any help with it. I have an uneasy feeling > that Tom, Jim and Max Planck are sitting out there waiting for me to die so >they can come in and take over. Tom, you're my only hope. Give me a few >references or something I can chew on to get started. > Don Rosenthal, you also seem to have attained enlightenment in some >way. How did you do it? How about getting the ACS to put some of those short >courses on the network or into some format such as this conference for the >benefit of more people. Many of us, especially those from smaller schools, >don't get to many of those big ACS meetings in the sky. Most of Tom's "concepts" I teach to my 4th year undergrads if they don't already know them in 3 or 4 hours. the one's I don't teach, I assume the students have taught themselves since they are using computers at a very early stage before they get them as compulsory parts of courses, without formal introductions since their essays and lab reports look so much better. However since our introductory calculus courses in math are all taught with Maple in Mac labs, every chemistry student is at least familiar with the basic use of a computer in first year. Even my wife, a PhD in English & a Professor in the Dept. of Film Studies, Dramatic and Visual Arts knows more than half the answers without ever having any computer training -- and she doesn't want me to tell her 5 different ways of doing something -- she just uses word processors to write her books, the internet and e-mail as her latest productivity tools, the network to access the library catalogue and a spreadsheet for marks etc. She learned by trying and asks the question of whether there's a better way after she feel's she understnads what's going on. She hates all things mechanical but uses her computers (she now has three, one at home, one in the office and one for her typist) because they make life easier, and she uses them as tools for classes in shakespeare and television drama as well. If a Prof. in the humanities can manage, surely a Chemist can. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 15:45:17 -0500 From: david brooks Subject: Re: Paper 9 discussion In-Reply-To: <01H0SZS53X100018O0@crcvms.unl.edu> from "R. T. Wilson" at Jul 21, 93 01:18:36 pm Many thanks to the discussants of paper 9. The idea espoused in paper 9 was not intended as a joke. When there is a resource problem, a resource-based solution is likely to needed. Faculty time is the most expensive part of the cost equation. Replacement costs are almost always lower -- sometimes much lower -- than faculty costs. Leaves afford the lowest cost solution to the problem. There have been a few remarks made about research into learning. The neurological basis for learning is becoming more and more clear. One can take an artificial retina and hook it up to some neural network learning gadget like a sparse distributed memory and achieve real learning -- such as the ability to recognize features of a pattern. The experiments are several years old! Fool around with misconception theory and constructivism if you like, but serious work in neural based learning appears on the pages of Science about 3 weeks out of 4. A membership in AAAS is well worth the price; Science comes weekly, and is two notches above Scientific American but a notch below Accounts of Chemical Research in the level of its review pieces. I have been giving a talk here and there for the last year or so. I use four props: a hard cover book of logarithm tables purchased for $0.59 in 1958; a yellow metal slide rule (with case) given to me by my wife in 1963; an HP-11C calculator, but my first HP was an HP-45 bought in 1973; and a PowerBook. You can guess how the talk goes. About two months ago I tried to use the log book; darned if I hadn't remembered. There must be some more useful way for me to be able to reassign those neurons. Today as we participate in this electronic conference, hundreds of millions of dollars are being spent by the NSF and other agencies on training science teachers and formulating so-called frameworks. It strikes me that about half of the training and over 85% of the effort in frameworks is obsolete. I've disagreed with nearly everything that one of the more prolific contributors to the discussion has stated, but one comment rung true -- that people on leave can come back skilled in writing Apple programs when the world has moved on to Macs and PCs. True, true. Partly the fault of planning for the leave, but true, true nevertheless. Well, MULTIPLY that financial waste by about 100,000 and you have the waste cost of much current efforts in teacher training. I do not mean that science will come to depend upon new and heretofore unknown principles. I do mean that the way we do science and the way we think when empowered by new tools will be entirely different (is entirely different) than one might guess from looking at the outcomes of current training efforts. So, while I don't quibble with most of the concepts covered in training program content, I reject essentially all of the approach. Here are a few rules that might change things a bit: 1. Every training session for inservice and preservice science teachers must involve DAILY use of computers. 2. Inservice and preservice teachers must be provided direct access to personal computers, preferably though personally owned devices. 3. Every lesson plan generated in a training program for inservice or preservice teachers should (must) have a section on computer use. Have you ever seen a lab manual with a safety entry to the effect that the experiment involves no special safety hazards, and that routine safety precautions should get you through the day? A parallel form of required entry could deal with justifiable cases of computer non-use. Why are such rules not likely to come about? Adopting these rules would disenfranchise large numbers of current trainers. Perhaps those trainers need a leave. Five will get you ten that they don't spend their leaves learning about computers or software or neurons. They'll probably spend there leaves chatting about misconceptions. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 15:52:52 -0500 From: Michael A Kahlow Subject: Re: Paper 9 discussion I thought Tom O'Haver's list was wonderful. But it's not as easy as Dr. Miller would have us believe. I've programmed thousands of lines of code, designed my own interface cards... and there are still things I don't know and can't find out about. Example: I'm the most computer literate in my dept - so who's going to teach ME about all of the features of internet? Sure, we can all learn on our own -- but it helps to have a critical mass of interest. That's one reason I've really enjoyed this conference -- that "critical mass" is here and we can all learn from each other (rather than all of us simultaneously reinventing CAI). michael kahlow micheal.a.kahlow@uwrf.edu (university of wisconsin - river falls) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:17:40 EDT From: David Ostfeld Subject: Paper 9 Discussion There is one more point about computerization that everyone knows but no one has mentioned. There is simply no substitute for having a computer and as much software as possible at home. One surely needs a goal -- and that's at school. But there just ins't enough time in the school day to learn what you need. And if you did manage to learn it, you (or at least I) need the home computer to keep up to date. Dave Ostfeld Academy for the Advancement of Science (Hackensack, NJ) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:40:47 -0400 From: "Mr. Science" Subject: Re: Paper 9 discussion "Number One, engage text-extractor beam... NOW!!" "Aye, Captain!!" BBBZZZFFFTTT!!! "Captain, previous message locked into extractor beam. Begin reply?" "Mr. Riker... Make it so!" > >I thought Tom O'Haver's list was wonderful. But it's not as easy as >Dr. Miller would have us believe. I've programmed thousands of lines of >code, designed my own interface cards... and there are still things I >don't know and can't find out about. Example: I'm the most computer >literate in my dept - so who's going to teach ME about all of the >features of internet? Sure, we can all learn on our own -- but it helps >to have a critical mass of interest. That's one reason I've really >enjoyed this conference -- that "critical mass" is here and we can all >learn from each other (rather than all of us simultaneously reinventing >CAI). > Michael brings up a good point. Perhaps we need to create a USENET newsgroup for chemistry instructors? That way, well after this on-line conference is over, we can still benefit from our 'critical mass' of knowledge! Tony ;> Date this awe-inspiring message was sent: 21-JUL-1993 17:39:36 *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* | Anthony V. Rosati | | | Department of Chemistry, | "A nation that cannot think, | | Georgetown University | cannot survive." | | Washington, D.C. 20057-2222 | | | ROSATI@GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU | - Norman Mailer, 1992 | | A_ROSATI@GUVAX.GEORGETOWN.EDU | National Press Club | # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # | Information Exchange Coordinator and Member, Board of Directors | | National Association of Graduate-Professional Students (NAGPS) | | 1993 - 1994 | *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 16:50:08 -0500 From: "Alfred J. Lata" Subject: Paper 9 comments David Brooks has 'always' had the ability to stir up a hornet nest: that's why we love him so. But further we enjoy the opportunity to examine and re-examine what we are doing, as required by the comments he makes to and for us. BUT to almost quote, without attribution, (from the mid 60's) 'the purpose of computers is not numbers, but insight.' Much, I hope, of our teaching in Chemistry, and our other subjects, is not just for the subject matter, but to teach the students how to think, how to attack problems, how to analyze, how to etc.,etc., The opportunity to use tools, learn tools, what their capabilities and limitations are, and then to find new and better tools. Folks are always amazed by the McGyver's (for you TV fans), who can do much with little; resulting from looking for new insight. How many of us have students who say "well, if I only knew whether to multiply or divide I could get it right", but refuse to make use of dimensional analysis, and will not use 'units' in solutions of problems. In many cases, our problems are posed to see whether the student can solve them, not only to see if they can get the right answer (do you give partial credit? Why?) We learn from making mistakes, but we should also learn not to make the same mistakes (my gosh, professional golfers and BB players are not 'successful' every time (i.e., every shot), but they continue in their sport : why not students! A colleague of mine once said (as the semester drew to a close and there was still SO much material to cover) 'is our job to cover material, or uncover material?' Let's not let the students feel that it is only the answer that is most important :it's learning that's important. There going to have to do that all of their lives. Hey, try the following (no calculator allowed) if log of 1 = 0.000, lof of 10 = 1.000, log 2 = 0.301 and log 3 = 0.477 How much of the log table can you 'create' (i.e., generate)?\ Thanks Dr. Brooks for stirring us up. Alfred J. Lata Dept of Chemistry University of Kansas lata@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 19:10:37 EDT From: "R. T. Wilson" Subject: Paper 9 discussion Tony Rosati says: >Perhaps we need to create a USENET newsgroup for chemistry instructors. A great idea from Mr. Science! Sign me up. This conference has convinced me that electronic communication (and education) is the wave of the future. It increases the efficiency of the knowledge-transfer process by orders of magnitude. Terrell Wilson Virginia Military Institute Lexington, Virginia 24450 {fchwilson%faculty%vmi@ist.vmi.edu} ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 16:26:32 -0600 From: Jim Diamond Subject: Re: Paper 9 discussion In-Reply-To: <9307211822.AA02249@umd5.umd.edu> On Wed, 21 Jul 1993, R. T. Wilson wrote: > Don Rosenthal, you also seem to have attained enlightenment in some > way. How did you do it? How about getting the ACS to put some of those short > courses on the network or into some format such as this conference for the > benefit of more people. Many of us, especially those from smaller schools, > don't get to many of those big ACS meetings in the sky. > Terrell Wilson I just spent two weeks at Asheville at the NSF sponsored workstation workshop. Granted, this is a large hunk of time, but it was terrific! This was the opinion of the rest of the participants as well, some of whom were almost totally naive about hardware. If such an opportunity arises again, go for it! Didn't the workshop announcement appear on CHEMED-L ? |\/\/\/| | | Jim Diamond ___ | | S-Mail : Chemistry Department ( |______/----------_ | (o)(o) Linfield College | * \ C _) McMinnville OR 97128 | HATE-FREE | | ,___| E-Mail : jimd@linfield.edu ( ZONE / | / Voice : (503)-472-4121 (X471) ( (for now) ( /____\ FAX : (503)-472-3198 |_____________________| / \ ICBM : 45 deg 12'15" N 123 deg 12'04" W ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 20:01:21 -0400 From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" Subject: Re: Paper 9 discussion In-Reply-To: <9307211835.AA02919@umd5.umd.edu> > Perhaps we need to create a USENET newsgroup for chemistry > instructors. There are already newsgroups for chemistry (sci.chem) and for science education (sci.edu), and listservers for chemistry education (CHEMED-L), chemical information (CHMINF-L), computational chemistry (OSCPOST@oscsunb.osc.edu), chemometrics (ICS-L), and even for undergraduate chemistry students (chemistrytm@dhvx20.csudh.edu). CHEMED-L is quite active; many participants in this conference are also CHEMED-L regulars and find it useful. Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 20:08:56 -0400 From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" Subject: Re: Paper 9 discussion In-Reply-To: <9307211835.AA02919@umd5.umd.edu> > Give me a few references or something I can chew on to get > started. There are introductory tutorials on networking and on computer graphics in the BackgroundReading directory on info.umd.edu /Teaching/ChemConference/BackgroundReading, which is accessible by telnet, FTP, or gopher. For more information on Internet resourses, refer to Polly-Alida Farrington's Chemistry Internet Resources guide, which is available via anonymous ftp at ftp.rpi.edu in directory pub/resources. There are three versions of the file: chem-guide.ps = Postscript version chem-guide.ps.hqx = Compressed Postscript version chem-guide.txt = ASCII/unformatted text file Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:14:27 -0700 From: Barbara Sawrey Subject: D. Brook's reponse to Paper 9 Discussion >Here are a few rules that might change things a >bit: >1. Every training session for inservice and preservice >science teachers must involve DAILY use of computers. >2. Inservice and preservice teachers must be provided >direct access to personal computers, preferably though >personally owned devices. >3. Every lesson plan generated in a training program for >inservice or preservice teachers should (must) have a >section on computer use. Have you ever seen a lab manual >with a safety entry to the effect that the experiment >involves no special safety hazards, and that routine safety >precautions should get you through the day? A parallel form >of required entry could deal with justifiable cases of >computer non-use. These rules of David's are strict enough that few training programs could abide by them, but they are a laudable goal to be put in place soon. I would endorse carrying them further, to what we do in the classroom with all students, not just pre-service teachers. I would like to see those of us who use computers everyday for communication and research to incorporate those computers in our communication with our students, no matter what the activation energy. I have been holding office hours by computer for the last year and a half, for lecture classes as large as 375. It has worked beautifully and I have reaped benefits I had not anticipated -- but that's a paper or posting for another day. My point is that even though I sit in front of a computer most of my day (and have done so for several years) it took me a long time to take it into the classroom because I never found the perfect piece of software or the perfect image, and I thought that poor use of computers was worse than nothing at all. I am no longer convinced that is the case. Sure there's some lousy software out there, and some that just isn't applicable enough to warrant buying a site license for the student computer lab, but even if you show one rotating molecule, or one image of a protein, or do a quick library search on the computer in class for all to see, you've made progress. Don't wait until you can show beauty and perfection, do what's utilitarian. If you can't show them specific chemistry software, at least introduce them to the Internet and on-campus communication. Everyday something else is available on-line that makes it easier to find information there than anywhere else. If we don't have the spirit of adventure and demonstrate a quest for knowledge we can't expect it of our students. Barbara Sawrey bsawrey@ucsd.edu Dept of Chemistry UCSD La Jolla, CA 92093-0303 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 20:46:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Abstract for Meeting Correction and changes indicated in lines with asterisks (*) CHEMCONF: APPLICATION OF TECHNOLOGY IN TEACHING CHEMISTRY - REPORT ON AN ON-LINE COMPUTER CONFERENCE Alfred J. Lata, Department of Chemistry, University of Kansas, Lawrence Kansas 66045, Thomas C. O'Haver, Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of Maryland, College Park, Maryland 20742, and Donald Rosenthal, Department of Chemistry, Clarkson University,m Potsdam, New York 13676 The first on-line computer conference, "CHEMCONF: Applications of Technology * ***** - delete first - this is probably not true. in Teaching Chemistry", was held via e-mail (Internet, BITNET) on 14 June to ** from 20 August 1993. Sponsored by the Committee on Computers in Chemical Education (CCCE) of the ACS's Division of Chemical Education, Inc., the conference had an enrollment of 450 participants from 32 countries and was conducted * . It using LISTSERV at the University of Maryland and was moderated by Dr. O'Haver. No registration fee or travel were involved. Fifteen papers were presented with authors from three countries. Papers were submitted electron- ically and were available for distribution at the beginning and during the conference via Internet or BITNET mail, or by anonymous ftp at the conferees leisure. In addition to text, there were graphics, diagrams, and even animations distributed in the same fashion. Questions and discussions wer scheduled during the course of the conference and wer conducted using *** were *** were email. Enrollment, structure of the conference, papers, questions and discusssion, and suggestions for future conferences will be discussed. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 21:10:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 9 - Discussion of Teacher Training Paper 9 - Training for Educators Earlier today I mentioned some workshops to be held during and after the Biennial Meeting at Bucknell. Professor Margaret Kastner at Bucknell has sent me the following information which I pass on to you. (Her e-mail address is KASTNER@BUCKNELL.EDU) In addition to these workshops, there will be other workshops at the Bucknell meeting. Don Rosenthal ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= NSF sponsored Undergraduate Faculty Enhancement Workshops will be offered August 4-6, 1994 at Bucknell University. Six workshops will be offered: Six NSF-Undergraduate Faculty Enhancement Workshops will be held following the 13BCCE, August 4-6, 1994, at Bucknell University. The workshops are: One- and Two- Dimensional NMR Spectroscopy, by Richard Cornelius, Lebanon Valley College* Spreadsheets in Chemistry Courses, Patricia C. Flath, Paul Smiths' College* Molecular Structure by Xray Crystallographic Techniques, Jenny Glusker, Fox Chase Cancer Center, and Miriam Rossi,Vassar College* Interfacing Computers, Ken Ratzlaff, University of Kansas* Mathematic Software for Chemical Education, Allan Smith, Drexel University Material Science, Gary Wnek, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute *These four workshops will start during the last half-day of the 13BCCE. Application deadline is January 10, 1994. To recieve application materials, please send your name and address to Margaret Kastner, Department of Chemistry/BCCE, Bucknell University, Lewisburg, PA 17837 The costs of room (shared-double dorm room), meals and NSF-UFE workshop registration fees are fully paid by the NSF Award. Participation in the NSF-UFE workshops does not require attendance at the 13BCCE: registration for the BCCE is separate from these workshops. Registration materials will be available by October, 1993. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 22:11:39 -0400 From: JOHN WOOLCOCK Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 9 discussion David Brooks writes: >Using software tools changes how we think. That usage changes >which tasks we think are important. That usage changes how we >undertake tasks. and Paul Edwards writes: >I hope we don't make the same mistake with computers that we did with >calculators. That battle was over a long time ago, so I'm not trying to >restart it, but some of us aren't too happy about the outcome. There are important implications here. Perhaps the battle over calculators is past but not for computers although that time is fast approaching. As computers and calculators become more similar (laptops and graphics calculators are already here and being more widely used) we will be forced to deal with this issue. Perhaps this time we can get it right! But one type of information is often missing: what is the impact on student learning or cognitive skills caused by each type of software (spreadsheet, instrument simulator, etc.)? These ideas reminded me of a presentation given by Joseph Casanova on the use of the "Computer As Electronic Blackboard" given a few years ago at an ACS meeting. In this paper he described how he used a spreadsheet, structure drawing program, molecular modeling and hypermedia to create an entire year of organic lectures that was presented using only a computer. One of the things he found was that: "The electronic blackboard encourages greater reliance by the instructor on metaphor, illustration and imaging, but the instructional effectiveness of these techniques is unclear...In changing the lecture priority from words and theory to graphics and visualization, the electronic blackboard conveys to students a different set of priorities within the discipline which may or may not be tested (using a written exam) by the instructor but may be important in their future work." This paper had a profound effect on me. From that point forward I have felt it was critically important to understand the cognitive/pedagogical results of the tools we ask our students use, in order for them to be truly effective. Most software that is currently published has few strategies for use included and even fewer studies have been done on their effect on studentUs learning. Thus we are not only faced with what it is and how it operates but also how to use it effectively and what will are student know or become after using it. This is perhaps one reason that using new software is seems like such a chore for the non-enthusiast. Granted there are some site specific concerns for each user but, for example, what effect does using graphing programs have on students that use them in lab courses? Do they need to do it the Rold fashioned wayS even once? What effect does using a graphing program have on later courses? Perhaps it is these questions we should try to answer and soon. This type of question also has the advantage of perhaps being more fundable from standard grant sources that allow for incorporation of release time and would yield a more tangible results that are portable to other sites and are not so hardware and software specific. P.S. Joseph Casanova's computer-based lectures are currently available from Falcon Software. At the ACS meeting he also made the comment that "The electronic blackboard should carry a warning label for students and faculty alike." I wonder how many others should also! (:->) But, fortunately (or unfortunately?) this hasn't stopped me from trying to use JCE: Software, ChemSource animations or experiment interfacing in my courses! I just wish that I had an educational expert give some real assurance that it will really benefit the students in specific and tangible ways and I'm not doing this just because I enjoy it. Although that might be as good a reason as any and might inspire my students to be turn to the computer first as David Brooks would like us all to do! John Woolcock Chemistry Department Indiana Univ. of PA Indiana, PA 15705 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 22:42:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 9 - Answers to some Questions Paper 9 - Discussion Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET Answers to some Questions: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:18:36 EDT From: "R. T. Wilson" Subject: Paper 9 discussion > Don Rosenthal, you also seem to have attained enlightenment in some > way. How did you do it? * In 1961 Clarkson acquired an IBM 1620 mainframe computer. Someone * from IBM came up for a few days and gave an excellent course in * FORTRAN. I was doing research which required linear and non linear * least squares. Previously, I had spent an enormous amount of time do * these calculations on a Monroe calculator. I wrote programs and saved * myself a great deal of time. I was able to do calculations which * would not have been feasible without the computer. * * At a later stage I taught computer programming (BASIC and FORTRAN) to * Clarkson undergraduate chemistry majors. We all know there is no * better way to learn than to teach. * * I have taught a graduate - advanced undergraduate course entitled "The * Analysis of Experimental Data" which involved the use of numerical and * statistical methods, consideration of error and error propogation, and * the testing of hypotheses. Also, I taught a graduate course in * spectroscopy in which I used some NMR simulation software. * * When Clarkson initiated its computer for every student (and faculty * member) program, I received a microcomputer and word processing, * spreadsheet and higher level language software. I used the computer * and much of the software in my courses and developed and adapted * software for student use (see Paper 1). ====================================================================== > How about getting the ACS to put some of those short courses on the > network or into some format such as this conference for the benefit of > more people. Many of us, especially those from smaller schools, don't > get to many of those big ACS meetings in the sky. * This is an * interesting idea. Our workshops tend to be hands on. I'm not sure * that an on-line workshop would be as effective. How would the textual * material differ from a good book? One advantage to this scheme * (compared to a book) would be that discussion and questions would be * possible. Participants would need to provide software and hardware. * * WHAT DO YOU THINK OF Terrell Wilson's IDEA? - Please defer discussion * until the WEEKEND GENERAL DISCUSSION (and NOT during discussion of * Paper 10). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 22:53:40 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper 9 discussion Paul Edwards writes ".. give them the software and let them figure it out? Isn't that what we are training them to be able to do?" The idea is good and the purpose is good but I wonder how many undergraduates can do this. We spend so much time telling them what to do and we should not be surprised that they are very good at following instructions. Being innovative or even independent enough to just go and do something requires a quantum leap in maturity level for many students. The levels that students function at are nicely summarized by the Perry model of student development. Combine this with the constructivist model of learning and you have a fairly good working model of students in chemistry. This fits in with George Long's comment, "...students perceived this method as a lack of organization on my part... Dr. Long...seemed to be learning the software as he went ....They felt that I should have anticipated their problems or have been able to fix them easily....I still have bad student evaluations for this lab." Lisa Kintner had a similar experience. Then Jim Holler wrote , "I thought the computer was always right!" Students expressing these types of comments fall into the dualist or at best early multiplist pattern of behavior according to the Perry model. For these students the teacher is the source of knowledge or the right ways to find the truth. Ambiguity is a source of frustration. High degrees of structure and order (the experiment should work without hitches) are important. Further along the spectrum is where we would like our students to be - somewhere where they recognize knowledge as complex and contextual and teachers as experts but also companions in learning. Complexity and ambiguity become challenges not threats. (see J. CHEM ED. vol 68 p 753 (1991) for details about the Perry model). The challenge for us as educators is to provide environments in which students can grow into complexity. Perhaps this can be done by introducing less structure earlier in the curriculum. Computer modeling, simulations, and tools to explore numerous problems without the tedium can be used in this way. This of course must be guided by clear objectives and expectations for learning that are clearly and openly expressed to the students at the start of any activity. One problem with this is that the teacher must be even more prepared than for the traditional lab or lecture. Another is that there is more responsibility for student learning placed back into the hand of the student. Most students initially have trouble with this because of the nature of education on most campuses. When we free ourselves from the need to be efficient dispensers of knowledge then our students may be able to better appreciate us as creators and seekers of knowledge. This is in line with what Alfred Lata wrote "is our job to cover material, or uncover material?" I prefer the uncover mode with the student doing most of the uncovering and me setting the pace and providing the orchestration. but then David Brooks writes concerning his excellent set of rules" Why are such rules not likely to come about? Adopting these rules would disenfranchise large numbers of current trainers. Perhaps those trainers need a leave. Five will get you ten that they don't spend their leaves learning about computers or software or neurons. They'll probably spend there leaves chatting about misconceptions." I guess none of his students harbor misconceptions. Mine do and I have quite a time trying to uncover and unmask their misconceptions. Research has shown that most students adhere to an Aristotelian view of the universe despite the work of Newton and generations of physicists who followed him. The work of A. B. Arons is important for understanding students and their ability to learn science. Students construct both misconceptions and conceptions all of the time. This is described within the constructivist model of student learning that is very well presented in the papers by Bodner in J. Chem. Ed. particularly his paper entitled "I Have Found You an Argument" vol 68 p 385 (1991) which deals with the conceptual knowledge of beginning graduate school chemistry students. He concludes that misconceptions are resistant to instruction and are language and instructor driven. This is a humbling idea for all of us teachers. Then Barbara Sawrey wrote Don't wait until you can show beauty and perfection, do what's utilitarian. If you can't show them specific chemistry software, at least introduce them to the Internet and on-campus communication. Everyday something else is available on-line that makes it easier to find information there than anywhere else. One way to do what Barbara suggests is to put computer software and tools into the classroom as/while you are learning them or immediately afterwards. This helps increase your skill and presents a certain sense of enthusiasm to the students. This has worked several times for me. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 00:19:20 -0400 From: Judith Faye Rubinson Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks I like Tom O'Haver's list too. Our computer people just began implementing a module approach to our required computer sequence--one basic semester plus two more specific modules. I intend to pass on Tom's list as my suggestion for the content of the chemistry wish list. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 08:19:23 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 9 discussion >"Number One, engage text-extractor beam... NOW!!" >"Aye, Captain!!" >BBBZZZFFFTTT!!! >"Captain, previous message locked into extractor beam. Begin reply?" >"Mr. Riker... Make it so!" > >> >>I thought Tom O'Haver's list was wonderful. But it's not as easy as >>Dr. Miller would have us believe. I've programmed thousands of lines of >>code, designed my own interface cards... and there are still things I >>don't know and can't find out about. Example: I'm the most computer >>literate in my dept - so who's going to teach ME about all of the >>features of internet? Sure, we can all learn on our own -- but it helps >>to have a critical mass of interest. That's one reason I've really >>enjoyed this conference -- that "critical mass" is here and we can all >>learn from each other (rather than all of us simultaneously reinventing >>CAI). >> Hate to be the devil's advocate -- but havn't you answered your own question -- if you are the most expert, having trained yourself, the first thing you learned was presumably where to go to ask for help, whether inside the instituton or out. -This is the value of the internet which I admit I was late in coming to - there was no way I was going to be bothered mucking about in 1960's technology such as UNIX mail -- when the user friendly front ends became available, Eudora, Turbo-Gopher, Fetch etc. and with Appletalk remote access for easy access from home both my wife and I in radically different fields are extensive users and find the internet a great aid for both teaching and research. I may have slightly exagerated the contrasts in points of view on this paper to help the discussion along, but my observations of who uses computers and how are from the perspective of someone who has chaired both our chemistry dept. and more recently our computer science department and who has served three years on the University Promotion and Tenure committee where I saw across the whole institution who did what, what they planned to do, and dealt with ratings of both teaching and research, not the latter exclusively as has been implied by some participants. At least at Brock, good teaching is valued. Prof. Mary Francis Richardson in our department who I have mentored over the years was the CASE Professor of the year in Canada last year. > >Michael brings up a good point. Perhaps we need to create a USENET newsgroup >for chemistry instructors? That way, well after this on-line conference is >over, we can still benefit from our 'critical mass' of knowledge! > >Tony ;> > > >Date this awe-inspiring message was sent: 21-JUL-1993 17:39:36 >*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* >| Anthony V. Rosati | | >| Department of Chemistry, | "A nation that cannot think, | >| Georgetown University | cannot survive." | >| Washington, D.C. 20057-2222 | | >| ROSATI@GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU | - Norman Mailer, 1992 | >| A_ROSATI@GUVAX.GEORGETOWN.EDU | National Press Club | ># ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # >| Information Exchange Coordinator and Member, Board of Directors | >| National Association of Graduate-Professional Students (NAGPS) | >| 1993 - 1994 | >*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 10:07:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 10 -Discussion Paper 10 - Discussion PERSONAL COMPUTERS IN TEACHING PHYSICAL CHEMISTRY Aleksei A. Kubasov, Vassilii S.Lyutsarev, Kirill V.Ermakov, Chemical Faculty of Moscow State University, Moscow, Russian Republic. E-MAIL: LASER@mch.chem.msu.su I am impressed by the number and quality of students you have at Moscow State University. In the undergraduate Physical Chemistry course at Clarkson we concentrate on teaching basic concepts. (This course is taught in the third year for chemistry majors and in the second year for chemical engineering students.) Oscillating chemical reactions (Section I-A-2), consecutive reactions (I-B-1), heating with constant rise of temperature (I-B-2) and the examples in Section I-B-3 would be considered too advanced. As a matter of fact these topics might not even be covered in a graduate course in kinetics or thermodynamics. Your figures are very nice. Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 11:21:42 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Paper 10 -Discussion Like Don Rosenthal at Clarkson I teach mostly fundamentals to students in their first course of Physical Chemistry. My students also have weak math skills and very little computer experience - some none at all. One of my tasks is to convince them that they won't break the computer if they touch it. Their frustration level gets very high because they don't know too many of the basics described in Tom's list. I don't think that I am the only physical chemistry teacher with this problem. While my students are behind in technology and skills they are not behind in willingness to learn provided that the supportive environment is present. This includes a mix of hard and easy tasks and mutual support among themselves and support from me. Support comes in many forms. These are as you know providing resources like user manuals and working through some of the stuff in the manuals with them. Being up front about what they are expected to learn and accomplish is important too. Too often courses are set up as a competition in which the students try to out guess the teacher especially on exams. I think some one else said much the same thing this week. I have used computers in PChem lab for the past five or six years. My work in this area was initiated by the interest of one of my students. He came to school part time and worked full time. We started with Lotus vr. 2.0 for data analysis and then moved on to simple data acquisition using the RS232 serial port. I three years ago I added a simple modeling program DTMM exercise and this year the students used mathcad for the first time. Prior to their experience with these tools in PChem they have never used a math program or a modeling program, only a f my (and many other faculty's) students do not have the math and physics preparation, especially for those students who are taking pchem for the first time, the the Moscow University students have, there is much in this paper that I see potentially useful for teaching beginning pchem students. In particular the use of three dimensional graphs would be more effective with the computer and the emphasis on derivation and not enough emphasis on comprehension and interpretation in the first pchem course. What is the significance of the material we teach? Do the students see any significance in the maze of integrals and partials? Would the students learn better and appreciate better if they had more responsibility to figure things out for themselves while using well designed learning materials? What student would bother to hand calculate and then plot the data for 10 graphs by hand in order to figure out how the rate constants affect the shape of curves for consecutive irreversible 1st order kinetics? With a program like mathcad or with a spreadsheet they can do 30 or so after the equations are set up, all in 30 min or less. Boy do they appreciate the importance of computers in education after an exercise like that. I've seen it happen. It works. Consider also the effect of constructing a set of drug structures with a molecular modeling program. Students can do this with a variety of programs and in some places this is done in freshman chemistry. At one level they gain a great insight into the structure of molecules, stabilities etc. this then moves to the organic class where they can model chemical reactions and explore orbital interactions as a supplement to their lectures on this topic. Then in pchem they can examine the different parts of the potential function and explore the significance of each part. This is modern and up to date theoretical pchem and not beyond the abilities of the beginning student if we don't loose them in a forest of equations prematurely. Of course I am not against mathematical rigor. I enjoy math and it is one of the reasons why I became a pchem student and did work in QM and now in MM and MD. However as an educator I can expect my students to run before they can walk and they won't even walk if they don't think that there is anything interesting at the end of the road. I want to thank Prof Kubasov and his colleagues. I am going to try to get one or two of his ideas into my pchem course this year. I will have great fun doing so and so will my students. After all I do this work because it is intellectually pleasurable, fun, and I want to share that enjoyment with my students. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 10:43:44 PST From: "Edward H. Piepmeier" Subject: Re[2]: Paper 9 discussion JOHN WOOLCOCK raises some important questions. Some partial (perhaps indirect) answers from the field of education follow. He writes: >There are important implications here. Perhaps the battle over calculators is >past but not for computers although that time is fast approaching. As >computers and calculators become more similar (laptops and graphics calculators >are already here and being more widely used) we will be forced to deal with >this issue. Perhaps this time we can get it right! But one type of information >is often missing: what is the impact on student learning or cognitive skills >caused by each type of software (spreadsheet, instrument simulator, etc.)? >These ideas reminded me of a presentation given by Joseph Casanova on the use >of the "Computer As Electronic Blackboard" given a few years ago at an ACS >meeting. In this paper he described how he used a spreadsheet, structure >drawing program, molecular modeling and hypermedia to create an entire year of >organic lectures that was presented using only a computer. One of the things he >found was that: "The electronic blackboard encourages greater reliance by the >instructor on metaphor, illustration and imaging, but the instructional >effectiveness of these techniques is unclear... The field of education has identified three types of learning modes: auditory, visual and kinesthetic. Each person learns more quickly or effectively using one of these learning modes rather than the other two (although all three learning modes may be active to differernt extents in any one individual). It seems to me that computer images help those whose primary learning mode is visual. >but, for example, what effect does using graphing programs have on students >that use them in lab courses? Do they need to do it the Rold fashioned wayS >even once? The kinesthetic learners will benefit most from doing a manual plot. Visual learners will benefit most from seeing things on a screen. I can imagine that kinesthetic learners might also benefit by plotting with drawing programs that allow points and lines to be placed on a screen by a mouse. >..."In changing the lecture priority >from words and theory to graphics and visualization, the electronic blackboard >conveys to students a different set of priorities within the discipline which >may or may not be tested (using a written exam) by the instructor but may be >important in their future work." a) This change will simply help the visual learners at the expense of the auditory and kinesthetic learners (notetaking benefits kinesthetic learners.) It seems to me that we need to at least balance our presentations if we intend to include all types of learners. (Notice that statement does not answer the questions,"SHOULD we include all types of learners?" or "Do some types of learners make "better" scientists than others?") b) In a sense, we as professors are already setting the priorities - usually by mimicking the things that WE were taught, and without testing whether those things are the best (we assumed they were adequate because our students somehow succeeded after they got their degrees, or perhaps because we were taught in a well respected college or university.) But now things change so rapidly that we can no longer rely solely on our older ways to keep up with what is happening outside educational institutions. Ed Piepmeier Department of Chemistry Oregon State University Corvallis, OR 97331 piepmeie@ccmail.orst.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 13:58:21 -0400 From: Robert Nelson Subject: Re: Paper 9 comments In reply to Dr. Lata's query agout generating the log table from logs of 1, 2, 3, and 10. I did this one time while waiting for a train. 1,2,3,4,5 (10/2), 6,7(approx sqrt of 50) 8, 9 are easy. Bob Nelson, Associate Professor of Chemistry Chemistry - 8064 Georgia Southern University Statesboro, GA 30460-8064 912-681-5675 rnnelson@gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 11:10:11 GMT From: Heacock-David Subject: FW: Paper 9 and various discussions Second Try. __________________________________________________________ To: Oas From: Heacock-David on Wed, Jul 21, 1993 3:29 PM Subject: Paper 9 and various discussions I should first start by saying I am not part of the educational community but work in private industry. I have joined in on this conference because of personal interest and possible application to other technical conferences. However, at times I feel like an instructor because of the lack of computer skills that many individuals display both inside and outside my company. I should also add that in my department we mainly have people with at least 4 year technical college degrees In reviewing paper 9 and at least some of the discussions I find that many of the problems being discussed are similar to those noted in industry. The problems with adaquate amounts of time to learn the software and hardware is always present. Some of us feel the solution is to have additional staffing of individuals who are basically problem solvers. The problem again comes down to the limited money and time available to hire these individuals. However, in many cases there seems to be a lack of a clear objective when it comes to using computers for a specific task. Tied to this is the problem that once an objective has been established, it seems to grow out of control until simple solutions are no longer possible. Another factor seems to be that the learning rate of individuals is considerably different. In fact, some individuals do not have the desire to learn how to use computers even when the advantages are explained to them. I often wonder if there isn't some built in human flaw that needs to be corrected early on in the training cycle once it has been identified. At best I would consider myself a hacker with limited computer skills. However, others within our organization consider me as very knowledgeable and this deeply concerns me. I would like to at least take this opportunity to thank Tom O'Haver for the opportunity to participate in this conference as I have found the information very useful. David Heacock Technical Director Liberty Mutual Ins. Pleasanton, CA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 16:32:10 MST From: Elizabeth Dorland Subject: Chemed-l vs. Usenet One of my goals for the little remaining in the summer is to get familiar with Usenet. (First I have to find the news reading software for NeXT computer...anyone know where to look?) However, maybe those of you who are already into this can answer a couple of questions that may interest other participants. I have been on chemed-l for a year or two and have found it extremely interesting. I am wondering whether the discussion and/or participitants in sci.edu and sci.chem are overlapping, or substantially different from the chemed-l discussions/participants. Is the experience of belonging to a newsgroup similar to being on a listserv? My time suddenly becomes very limited when school starts, and sometimes my e-mail load overwhelms me as it is. As bitnet fades away, will listservs do the same? Is Usenet the wave of the future, or something entirely different in concept, not serving the same function listservs do? (You can see I haven't gotten too far with my "homework goal" yet. Sorry if these questions are naive) Liz Dorland Mesa Community College, Mesa, AZ (recently transfered from Glendale) dorland@next.mc.maricopa.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 23:39:49 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Paper 10 - Choice of ChiWriter I am curious about your choice of ChiWriter as your word processor. We use it at Monroe Community College and very much like its wysiwyg approach to multi- level formulas. It is not very popular in the US. I was surprised that you indicated all your faculty used it. How did you come to choose it over some of the more popular wordprocessors in widespread use such as WordPerfect, etc.? I have enjoyed your paper and figures. ___________________________________________________________ | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 14:29:31 MSD From: "Laser Chemistry Dept., MSU" Subject: Re: Paper 10 - Choice of ChiWriter Frank M. Lanzafame writes: >I am curious about your choice of ChiWriter as your word processor. I think this is the result of specific Russian conditions. Personal computers became to appear in Russian scientific and educational institutions late in the 80s. In most cases they were PCs and XTs with CGA adapters and their compatibles. The largest problem was to teach them "speak" and print in Russian. In such situation an easy to use ChiWriter was an ideal choice. Due to its Font Designer one could create Cyrillic fonts for screen and printer and prepare, for example, thesis on a computer. Now the situation (slowly) changes: ChiWriter v.4 has become much more complex and it can hardly compete with Windows editors on more powerful PCs. My personal choice is WinWord with its excellent Equation Editor. Vassili S. Lyutsarev Chemical faculty, Moscow state university. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 08:03:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 10 - Choice of ChiWriter In-Reply-To: <9307231124.AA03881@umd5.umd.edu> ChiWriter does have the advantage of running well on modest hardware. It is used here by a few people in our physics department. Most faculty and students have moved on to modern windowing environents, however. Since the late 80's, we in Chemistry have been using MathType, an excellent and very intuitive pop-up equation editor that works with any word processor and which eventually became integrated into Word as its built-in equation editor. It does require more modern (i.e. expensive) hardware, however. As for fonts, it's interesting that the Russian community here in the USA often uses Macintoshes for their newsletters and correspondence because Cyrillic fonts for screen and printer have been available for many years. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 08:17:05 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: Paper 9 discussion How does one subscribe to the newsgroups and listservers, particularly CHEMED-L? Barbara Gaddis U.C.C.S. Colorado Springs, CO ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 11:54:57 -0500 From: david brooks Subject: Re: FW: Paper 9 and various discussions In-Reply-To: <01H0UJI3QXWA00176U@crcvms.unl.edu> from "Heacock-David" at Jul 22, 93 11:10:11 am Two items have come by that warrant some sort of response. >> The field of education has identified three types >> of learning modes: auditory, visual and >> kinesthetic. Each person learns more quickly or >> effectively using one of these learning modes >> rather than the other two (although all three >> learning modes may be active to different extents >> in any one individual). It seems to me that >> computer images help those whose primary learning >> mode is visual. In a neurologically-based learning model, inputs come in parallel, and go out in parallel. Try as one might, intuition, common-sense, and horse sense to the contrary, brain sites where EVERYTHING COMES TOGETHER have yet to be found. It is clear that a great deal of our wiring involves sharing information back and forth. Nevertheless, there doesn't seem to be a home office with a CEO. Performance depends upon similarity of conditions. So, when trained to solve certain problems or answer certain questions is a room pervaded by an odor (chocolate, cinnamon), testing results are best when the test room also is pervaded with the same odor. Results like this make connectionist models of learning (parallel distributed processing models) quite compelling. >> I often wonder if there isn't some built in human >> flaw that needs to be corrected early on in the >> training cycle once it has been identified. While there is an enormous genetic component to our ability to function as learners, we nevertheless are born largely unwired. When we bumble around as learners -- exhibiting misconceptions among other things -- it isn't necessarily because we have learned something incorrectly or never learned it at all or were born with some false intuitions about how the world works. The process of wiring and rewiring takes a lot of time, and the closer one starts out to being suitably wired to demonstrate a particular learning, the easier completion of that wiring is. If we find a magic bullet that changes the process, it is likely to kill all of us. The process of wiring and rewiring is what being human is all about. Mentally speaking, we can grow, change our views, learn, forget, and so forth. We can use the cognitive artifacts of today to invent new cognitive artifacts tomorrow, and these will change how much we must rely an internal wiring versus how much we can appropriately port out to the artifact. What educators have discovered is that approaching only one input system gets results that are less impactful than when approaching as many inputs as possible -- sight, sound, touch. There are limits. I for one am NOT willing to teach in cinnamon-scented rooms so that I can test in cinnamon-scented rooms. My point in raising this perspective is to note that there is a rich and growing literature that does not come from "education" but that does hope to shed enormous light on learning and, to the degree that the activities are coupled, teaching. Two references may help: (1) "Neural Darwinism" by Gerald Edelman, Basic books, 1987. (2) The September 1992 issue of Scientific American, all articles but especially "The Problem of Consciousness" by Crick and Koch, since that deals with an area of very high controversy. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 12:46:00 -0300 From: MAINIERI@IF1.UFRGS.BR Subject: Re: Paper 10 - Choice of ChiWriter The program ChiWriter is a very simple program. I recommend WIMP 2001 and ChemWindows for Windows, these very well. OBS: I don't speak (and write) english very well. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 11:26:52 CDT From: Brad Thompson Subject: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation A thought on whether students should do the "fundamental operations" -- graphing, doing least squares operations, titration, or even multiplication/division -- should be done a few times at the fundamental level before students are given the black boxes: I understand that students in the German programs to produce machinists and tool-makers still spend some time early on, filing metals by hand! Those who haven't done some machining probably view that requirement as sadistic. Actually, the difference in "feel" between, day, brass and pure nickel, is important if one plans to machine them. Programming Automated mills and lathes won't ever give one that feel. I note in many of my younger colleagues a lack of "feel" for numerical quantities, for instruments, for the behavior of chemicals, and even for concepts such as orbitals. I describe this to myself as the "black-box syndrome". We all use black boxes. However, every time we do, we give up some feel for what is going on. It may be a necessary compromise, but it is a compromise. That being the case, there isn't a "best" way in every case. Myself, I'm inclined to have students calculate, graph, etc., a few by hand, then use the "automated power tools". I agree that there's much to be said for giving them the power to do lots of graphs and fits. By the way, a pocket calculator is a black box, but so was a slide rule or a log table -- most users didn't have the least idea why those tools worked! The use of each, however, had its own lessons to teach on the behavior of numbers. Every exercise on a slide rule reinforced what an uncertainty in a result is, in a way that a calculator never does. And the ratio concept is visible on a slide rule. And we all learned to estimate between scale divisions -- something lots of our students can't do these days. And as for log tables, how many of our students can interpolate reliably? Is interpolating, in a table or on a scale, still a valuable skill? The hand calculator allows us to require more -- every student now owns a powerful numerical-analysis lab (which we grossly under-use). The tragedy is that we didn't note what might be lost in the change, and make efforts to pick up those skills elsewhere. H. Bradford Thompson [Brad] Scholar in Residence, Chemistry & Physics bradt@gac.edu Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, Minnesota 56082 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 13:13:17 -0400 From: Mary Swift Subject: Understanding What One Is Doing My experience is much the same as Brad Thompson's. Some of the younger members of my department appear to have little understanding of the under- lying (bio)chemistry of what they are doing. Recently I proposed a new computer skills/concepts course for biochemistry majors and my colleagues were unable to understand that I wanted the students to devise the computation (set up the problem). I do not propose to teach kinetics or statistics just how to use the computer and appropriate software to solve a problem that the student has. My colleagues said well the computer just does it, right? Frankly, I didn't know how to respond civilly (probably the influence of one of our frequent contributors). My goal in proposing the course is to teach the applications/pitfalls of this powerful tool. the subject/problems just happen to be drawn from the life sciences. Again there was sort of an unexpectee d response from some faculty. At any rate, we have to decide to what extent we are training "blind" technicians or thinking/critical researchers. Once this is answered the question of whether a black box or understanding "it all, top to bottom" approach will be answered. In answering this question what is the goal (in the late 20th century) of undergraduate education? graduate education? It seems to me (on my worst days) that undergraduate education is remedial high school. If this trend is not broken what happens to gradur graduate education? Mary L. Swift Biochemistry Howard University ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 13:39:33 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation > A thought on whether students should do the "fundamental operations" > -- graphing, doing least squares operations, titration, or even > multiplication/division -- should be done a few times at the fundamental > level before students are given the black boxes: > I understand that students in the German programs to produce machinists > and tool-makers still spend some time early on, filing metals by hand! > Those who haven't done some machining probably view that requirement as > sadistic. Actually, the difference in "feel" between, day, brass and pure > nickel, is important if one plans to machine them. Programming Automated > mills and lathes won't ever give one that feel. > > I note in many of my younger colleagues a lack of "feel" for numerical > quantities, for instruments, for the behavior of chemicals, and even for > concepts such as orbitals. I describe this to myself as the "black-box > syndrome". We all use black boxes. However, every time we do, we give up > some feel for what is going on. It may be a necessary compromise, but it > is a compromise. That being the case, there isn't a "best" way in every > case. > > Myself, I'm inclined to have students calculate, graph, etc., a few by > hand, then use the "automated power tools". I agree that there's much to > be said for giving them the power to do lots of graphs and fits. > > By the way, a pocket calculator is a black box, but so was a slide rule > or a log table -- most users didn't have the least idea why those tools > worked! The use of each, however, had its own lessons to teach on the > behavior of numbers. Every exercise on a slide rule reinforced what an > uncertainty in a result is, in a way that a calculator never does. And the > ratio concept is visible on a slide rule. And we all learned to estimate > between scale divisions -- something lots of our students can't do these > days. And as for log tables, how many of our students can interpolate > reliably? > I recall from the days of the slide rule that most students didn't achieve this level of appreciation of numbers unless they used the slide rule extensively. Estimating between scale divisions also came with practice using allot of instruments that required such a skill. But we can put things in perspective by considering that most people today can't make their own bread. To make bread requires a feel for the dough and knowledge of the behaviour of yeast. Today we use other criteria to choose bread. We don't even think about the criteria. Back to chemistry. Perhaps we are in a transition stage where the necessary skills and techniques need to be designed in order to give students a feel for numbers. Using paper and pencil and long hand math is not the best way to do this as someone said earlier on the discussion of this topic. The same thought patterns with respect to graphs and an appreciation for numbers can be achieved by using modern technology. The problem may lie in the way technology has been used so far not in the technology itself. > Is interpolating, in a table or on a scale, still a valuable skill? > The hand calculator allows us to require more -- every student now owns a > powerful numerical-analysis lab (which we grossly under-use). The tragedy > is that we didn't note what might be lost in the change, and make efforts > to pick up those skills elsewhere. If any skill is valuable then those who need it will eventually learn how to do it. The problem is that the need must be perceived. Since we all can't do every thing then some groups will need to specialize in order to fill the void. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 13:50:45 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: pchem and papers 1,3,10 Regarding Paper 10 and Papers 1 & 3 with respect to pchem: Aside from the issue of platform choice how extensively are computers used in physical chemistry lecture and for physical chemistry lab? In pchem lab I perceive that use is very extensive in some places but can be minimal in others and it seems that lab would be a good place to start if one is not doing too much yet. This may be easier now that most if not all new instruments come with computers. I have some concerns about the 'black box' problem but using a tool as a black box at first may have redeeming qualities in that at least we can get something modern done and build in understanding as we go along provided that the computer interfaces are not used as a strategy for loading up an already overburdened curriculum in pchem as well as in the other subdisciplines of chemistry. It may be a good idea to remember that whenever we put something in we must take something out. Student learning is like a constant volume problem. While student learning has a certain degree of elasticity it can break and the student evaporate into another discipline if sufficient time is not given for growth and expansion at any point along the learning curve. (40% of the students who start out with an interest in science at the start of college drop out of science by graduation) After reading these papers my opinion is that a much greater effort needs to be made to get the computer into the pchem classroom has been reinforced. Here again if the computer is used in class then something else must go, specifically some of the time that the teacher spends talking, usually too fast for real learning to take place. It is no wonder that students don't ask questions. They are overwhelmed. My proposal is to give students a reasonable list of things that they must do before class - read sections of the text or provided notes and answer a set of questions and do a set of problems. Hold the students accountable by administering a quiz at the start of class. Use class time for exploring the preassigned material more deeply - it is here that computers come in handy - and the pchem class may even need to be run in a computer lab at times. This approach radically changes the role of the professor. S/He becomes a mentor/coach who uses class dynamics and group dynamics to guide and implement the learning process. In turn the students will no longer be allowed to remain as passive blobs in an assigned seat. They must work in class in assigned groups or pairs to complete the activity for the day. The usual argument offered to this type of teaching is that there is too much content to cover in order to be able to do it this way. My answer is as follows. first consider what happens in a typical course. During lecture the valuable information that we are transmitting in a very polished and formal way usually goes in the eyes and out the pencil of the student without much and possible no interaction with the brain. The amount of learning seems to have little or no connection to the quality of the lecture or preparation of the professor. Where does the real learning occur - in the library, the students rooms, the night before an exam? These are all times when we have no access to them nor they to us. How do we induce deep learning, the kind that sets patterns for scholarship over a life time and creates a level of self confidence in the student while engaging his mind actively in the learning process? A tall order isn't it. Impossible - NO. Hard work for the instructor YES especially at first. This is where the computer fits in beautifully. Move the computer in pchem into the class for more than data analysis. Use it to display complex diagrams. Use it for exploration of equation properties. Use it to demonstrate reactions in motion, molecules in motion, and experiments. Use it for simulations. Get the students to see something, put it in 3D, rotate it look at it from all angles, turn it inside out if necessary, and then probe their understanding. We don't need to wait for them to have the math skills of the Moscow University students in order to give them a taste of doing and appreciating more complex things. And when we give them all of these things to do we must also give them time to reflect about what they are doing. If not then we will be back to us covering the material and them just nodding in agreement and amazement and feeling that they will never be able to do these things on their own. It will be hard work to set up all of the learning tools and assessment tools but if we don't start it will never get done. Final questions: 1. What specific computer exercises do the pchem teachers do in class as an alternative to lecturing about a topic? 2. What and how many computer illustrations/simulations do pchem teachers use during class? 3. How do the pchem teachers assess the effectiveness of these alternatives to straight lecture? 4. Other than hour exams, quizzes and homework (is it graded?) how do the pchem teachers assess student learning of a particular topic? Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 15:47:01 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Understanding What One Is Doing Mary Swift writes > > My experience is much the same as Brad Thompson's. Some of the younger > members of my department appear to have little understanding of the under- > lying (bio)chemistry of what they are doing. Recently I proposed a new > computer skills/concepts course for biochemistry majors and my colleagues > were unable to understand that I wanted the students to devise the > computation (set up the problem). I do not propose to teach kinetics or > statistics just how to use the computer and appropriate software to solve > a problem that the student has. My colleagues said well the computer just > does it, right? Frankly, I didn't know how to respond civilly (probably > the influence of one of our frequent contributors). My goal in proposing > the course is to teach the applications/pitfalls of this powerful tool. > the subject/problems just happen to be drawn from the life sciences. Again > there was sort of an unexpected response from some faculty. So our colleagues are as mystified about the potential good and potential abuses of computers as are our students. All the more need to develop strategies that force utilization of the computer in an appropriate way. The question is how do we do this. I don't think that manual graphs and hand calculations are the way. Mary has a good idea here in wanting to teach the limits and extent of the usefulness of the computer to young chemists. > At any rate, we have to decide to what extent we are training "blind" > technicians or thinking/critical researchers. Once this is answered the > question of whether a black box or understanding "it all, top to bottom" > approach will be answered. In answering this question what is the goal > (in the late 20th century) of undergraduate education? graduate education? > It seems to me (on my worst days) that undergraduate education is remedial > high school. If this trend is not broken what happens to gradur > graduate education? > > There will always be a need for technicians but the greater need is for critical thinking from all science students. Critical thinking in general among college students may be at a low and there are many who are working in this area especially in writing programs and the social sciences. Does anyone have any information about assessment of critical thinking in undergraduate and graduate chemistry students? I heard that there were some studies done and that the results were not too good. Anyone have any references on this? Most of my sources say things are bad but I'm looking for some data. Mary, could the feeling of doing remedial work have something to do with the amount of material students are expected to learn today? There is certainly more in pchem and organic chem texts than when I was a student 30 years ago. I don't deny that entry level math and verbal skills are less than in the past. Since this is so what should we do to change the situation? If we start to improve education at the elementary and highschool levels it will be 4-12 years before we see results. The new surgeon general appointee said something interesting. She said that it is a wise old man who plants a tree that he will never live long enough to sit beneath. Maybe we can't fix it all but we sure can fix one student at a time, one topic at a time. I trust that the tree will grow. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 15:26:53 -0400 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation I am somewhat puzzled by this "old tool vs new tool argument". I distinctly remember learning graphing and interpolation in 9th grade algebra II class. I could perhaps understand the reason for not using computer graphing in 9th grade education, but I do not see any reason for using hand drawn graphs at the college level. Shouldn't students understand graphing before they come to college? George Long IUP ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 15:48:14 -0400 From: JOHN WOOLCOCK Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation I am in sympathy and agree with many of the ideas expressed in this discussion. With that in mind here is a scenario to consider. Suppose some company figured out that by creating a "significant figures" button they could sell millions of their calculators to students in science courses. This button when pressed, automatically redisplayed a calculated result with the correct number of significant figures. How would this change the way we teach our courses? How would this change the thinking and working skills that our student would attain? John Woolcock Chemistry Department Indiana Univ. of PA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 17:14:48 EDT From: Sherman Henzel Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation Sorry about that last message.e. >I am somewhat puzzled by this "old tool vs new tool argument". >I distinctly remember learning graphing and interpolation in >9th grade algebra II class. I could perhaps understand the reason for >not using computer graphing in 9th grade education, but I >do not see any reason for using hand drawn graphs at the >college level. Shouldn't students understand graphing before they >come to college?- Yes they should and being able to use algebra as a tool would be nice too. The reality is that my students can not graph (nor can they make sense out of graphs) and they can not do basic algebra. ___________________________________________________________ | Sherman Henzel Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5124 | | Internet: shenzel@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 18:12:25 -0600 From: Gerald Morine Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods Brad Thompson writes (emphasis added): > I note in many of my younger colleagues a lack of "feel" for numerical > quantities, for instruments, for the behavior of chemicals, and even for > concepts such as orbitals. I describe this to myself as the "black-box > syndrome". We all use black boxes. However, every time we do, WE GIVE UP > SOME FEEL FOR WHAT IS GOING ON. It may be a necessary compromise, but it > is a compromise. I suppose what is "going on" has to do with determining what factors in an equation are most important in the magnitude of the final result and which factors are most important in the precision of the final result. Most students don't see these relationships, either from the algebraic equations or the equations with data plugged in. I don't know how to teach them to perceive such relations. Simple demonstration and small amounts of practice don't do it very well, for my students at least. John Woolcock's (whimsical?) idea for a significant figures button on a calculator sounds like a step in the right direction, but it is not enough. Perhaps the approach most likely to be digestible by the greatest number of students is to make more extensive use of the graphing capabilities of computers, especially the graphing calculators now becoming common in calculus courses at many schools. Most chemistry students do not have the feel for numbers that many analytical and physical chemists do. Instead, they become organic chemists, polymer chemists or biochemists. Their special skills are spatial understanding and visualization. The best way to teach them about data and equations is therefore through graphics. If this approach is taken, one need not be caught in the 1890-1910's trap of having to express all relationships as straight lines. Polynomial, logarithmic, exponential: they are all easy for the user of a graphing calculator. I agree with Theresa Julia Zielinski: "Move the computer in pchem into the class for more than data analysis. Use it to display complex diagrams. Use it for exploration of equation properties. Use it to demonstrate reactions in motion, molecules in motion, and experiments. Use it for simulations. Get the students to see something, put it in 3D, rotate it look at it from all angles, turn it inside out if necessary, and then probe their understanding." We must, however, have the students doing these things themselves, on their laptops and graphing calculators. Students learn best by doing, not watching. The technology is now cheap and easy to use. When physical chemistry texts take this approach, we will be able to do a better job of teaching all our students than we have ever done before. Dr. Gerald Morine, Chemistry Dept., Bemidji State University ghmo%bsu.decnet@msus1.bitnet or ghmo@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 21:38:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Papers 1 and 9 - Discussion - Re: What Chemistry Students Need to Know about Computers and Computing. There has been some discussion about what chemistry teachers need to know and what we should be teaching our students. Let me just quote from Tom O'Haver's July 21 message: > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 07:45:31 -0400 > From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" > Subject: Re: Paper 9 - Brooks > Jack Martin Miller writes: >> A training leave will leave the person who required it trained >> for the product or computer that was out of date by the time >> they got to the point of having to use it. (Tom O'Haver) A. ------------------------------------------------------- > For this reason I believe that it is important to stress > conceptual knowledge of the general principles more than > procedural knowledge of specific products. ......... ---------------------------------------------------------- B. ------------------------------------------------------- > What are the important concepts? Here's my list: The concept of > a file and file type; the difference between a text and a binary > file; between RAM and disk memory; between an application and a > document; between a text editor, a word processor, and a desktop > publishing (page layout) program; between a tab stop and a tab > character; between spreadsheet and equation solvers; between a > symbolic algebra program and a numeric analysis program; between > plain text and formatted text; between a compiler and an > interpreter; between machine language and assembly language; > between serial and parallel; between digital and analog > interfacing; the digital representation of a continuous analog > signal by sampling; scaling, linear transformation, and > calibration; the different ways to transfer data between > programs and operating systems and platforms; the concept of the > clipboard and copy and paste; the difference between raster and > vector graphics; between screen resolution and printer > resolution; between a client and a server; between a host and a > local system, between local area and wide area networks; between > network hardware and network protocols; between modem dialup, > direct RS-232 connection, and a network connection; the > principles of telecommunication; the common features af all > terminal programs; the main classes of Internet tools. > Tom O'Haver > U. of Maryland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- * Several participants have supported this list. Jack Miller (Wed. 21 Jul 1993 15:29) said: > Most of Tom's "concepts" I teach to my 4th year undergrads if they > don't already know them in 3 or 4 hours. ............. * I don't know whether this is possible or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- * I agree with A above. * * With reference to B above: * I don't agree that these are the most important concepts we * can teach our CHEMISTRY STUDENTS. * I believe that for the chemist the computer is a tool and that what * CHEMISTS need to know is how the computer can be used by and help * the CHEMIST. The chemistry student should be able to USE these tools * and understand and interpret the RESULTS obtained with these tools. * He need not fully understand these tools (in the same way we do not * need to fully understand how an NMR instrument nor molecular * modelling software really works). * * We can not nor should we try to teach our students EVERYTHING about * computers. Our objectives should be modest and will obviously * depend upon the hardware and software we have available for them. * * At Clarkson I would like our undergraduates to use the computer for: * 1. Word Processing * 2. Numerical methods * 3. Statistical methods * 4. Spreadsheets * 5. Molecular modelling * 6. Plotting * 7. Data bases * * 8. Students should use and know something about the capabilities of * computer interfaced instruments. * 9. Students should have some familiarity with electronic mail and * networks. * 10. Students should be able to program in a general purpose higher level * language. * * I do not expect a student to become expert in any of the above. * I do expect them to know at least a little about each of these. * We could argue about the extent of their expertise. I believe * the most important thing is that they know that such software * and hardware exists - that they have used it and to some degree * can interpret what they obtain from the software and hardware. * For example, if a student has used a reasonably sophisticated * word processor, he will know what word processors can do. * From my perspective, the fact that there are better word * processors now or there will be better word processors ten years * from now is largely irrelevant. * * If you compare my list with Tom O'Haver's you will see it is quite * different. My students will not necessarily know about many of the * things on Tom's list - so be it. * * Another issue NOT addressed in this note is how computers should be * used by INSTRUCTORS in TEACHING CHEMISTRY. Some of the other papers * in this Conference address this issue. Perhaps some of the other * participants might like to put together a list of hardware and * software that is useful. There has been identification of specific * software which is useful in particular courses. * * Donald Rosenthal * Department of Chemistry * Clarkson University * ROSEN1@CLVM ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 23:57:48 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods Dr. Gerald Morine writes in reply to my move the computer suggestion >> "Move the computer in pchem into the class for more than data analysis. >> Use it to display complex diagrams. Use it for exploration of >> equation properties. Use it to demonstrate reactions in >> motion, molecules in motion, and experiments. Use it for >> simulations. Get the students to see something, put it in 3D, >> rotate it look at it from all angles, turn it inside out if >> necessary, and then probe their understanding." > We must, however, have the students doing these things > themselves, on their laptops and graphing calculators. Students learn best by > doing, not watching. The technology is now cheap and easy to use. When physica l > chemistry texts take this approach, we will be able to do a better job of > teaching all our students than we have ever done before. This is precisely what I wanted to say. i am in favor of making pchem a participatory experience not a spectator sport. Thank you for making this idea clearer. Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 21:22:10 PDT From: Steve Lower Subject: PChem and CAI In-Reply-To: <9307241748.AA17604@whistler.sfu.ca>; from "theresa Julia Zielinski" at Jul 24, 93 1:50 pm > How do we induce deep learning, the kind that sets patterns for > scholarship over a life time and creates a level of self > confidence in the student while engaging his mind actively in > the learning process? [Theresa Julia Zielinski] One strategem is to force students to make reasoned decisions, based upon what they already know, thus helping them to build their own knowledge based on a kind of "experience". This is exactly what lectures do NOT do, and the reason that lectures have long been discredited as means of conveying learning. Some examples of CAI lessons that attempt to implement this strategy can be found on our ftp server, truth.chem.sfu.ca, in pub/chem1 and pub/chem1/mac. For any who did not catch the announcement on Chemed-L, the latter contains electrochem.sea, a set of lessons on electrochemistry. Although aimed at the general chemistry level, I have found that these and similar lessons can challenge our fourth-year students who are very clever at manipulating equations but have a weak grasp of what some of them mean. -- Steve Lower - Dept of Chemistry - Simon Fraser University (lower@sfu.ca) Burnaby BC V5A 1S6 Canada (604)-291-3353 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 01:49:39 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation George Long: ... > I distinctly remember learning graphing and interpolation in > 9th grade algebra II class. I could perhaps understand the reason for > not using computer graphing in 9th grade education, but I > do not see any reason for using hand drawn graphs at the > college level. Shouldn't students understand graphing before they > come to college? Yes, students should, some do, but too many don't understand graphing before they come to college. They also don't have the practice in word problems from mathematics courses that they once did. Many do not have the facility with language that they should. The problem instructors now face is: 1. Do we just assume that they have had the experiences that they should have had and go on losing many in the process? 2. Do we convert our introductory college courses to "remedial high school courses"? 3. Do we try to meet the student where s/he is and try to help them achieve at the college level even if this means SOME manual graphing which they should have had but didn't? I think we should try to include some remediation where possible. There are limits, and some students should back up and take the prep courses that many of us now offer. If we can help some students by addressing their lack of graphing skills, algebra, and word problem experience, it seems worth the effort particularly if we do not compromise the end product. ___________________________________________________________ | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 07:46:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation In-Reply-To: <9307242009.AA01251@umd5.umd.edu> John Woolcock says: > This button when pressed, automatically redisplayed a > calculated result with the correct number of significant > figures. My feeling is the basic idea of significant figures, as an estimator of uncertainty and the propagation of errors, is fundamentally too crude and flawed to be worthy of much effort on the part of programmers and calculator manufacturers. The extended discussion some months ago on CHEMED-L demonstrated several examples of absurd results that can be obtained by literal and unthinking application of significant figure rules. On the other hand, programmable calculators and computers can perform quick, repetitive re-calculations of multi-step problems. This gives us an opportunity to demonstrate just how is is that uncertainties in the "inputs" lead to uncertainties in the "outputs", by repeating a calculation with variations in the "inputs". I myself have a better understanding of error propagation for having played around with this idea in spreadsheets. Indeed, it is possible to design programs for numerical calculation and/or graphing that allow (or require) the uncertainties for each input number to be entered along with the number itself and which carry along the uncertainties through all calculations, possibly ending up as error bars on a graph. (One commercial example of such a program in SerePlot). Something like that would be a lot better, in my opinion, than programming machines to mimic the crude rule-of-thumb shortcut of significant figures. It would be interesting if every computer program and calculator would have TWO fields for every input and output, one for the number itself and one for its uncertainty. If the uncertainty is zero, then SAY SO by putting a zero in the uncertainty field. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 07:25:21 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation In response to George Long asking shouldnt' the students understand graphing before they come to college: emphatically yes, they should. However, a large portion (at least of our enteringgemeral chemistry students do not. Not only can they not assign axes so that most of the graph paper is used, but they don't know how to interpret the graph -- what it represents about the trend of the data, what the slope indicates, even how to calculate the slope. We have had to design learning modules, teaching students how to (for probably the twentieth time in their education) how to draw and interpret a graph. We retest these same students after a semester, and while their graphing skills show vast improvement, there are still a few areas not mastered. To them, using a graphing program is a "black box". Do we go ahead and let them do all the graphs on the computer, knowing that a large portion do not understand what theyr'e doing? Or try again to teach them? I'd appreciate any insights from yuou. Barbara Gaddis U.C.C.S. Colorado Springs, CO ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 07:27:12 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation I am not able to read a large portion of my email this morning. I get a message that says RMS-E-ENF, file not found. Am I doing something wrong? Barbara Gaddis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 11:11:53 CDT From: Brad Thompson Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods Tom O'Haver's description of what we ought to be doing about teaching precision is, in my opinion, a real keeper! The pocket calculator is a powerful numerical laboratory that each of our students owns! The spreadsheet is an even more powerful one, access permitting. John Woolcock, with his "Sig.Fig.Button" suggestion, has provided a fine example of the danger of black boxes. We could, indeed, encase within a (physical) black box, the calculator, another (conceptual) black box, the ridiculous text sig.fig. rules. Lots of users would use the results blindly. Others, seeing or sensing the absurdity of the answers, would blame numerical calculators as a class. There's no "right" number of digits for a number, except (sometimes) in a specific context. The text rules obscure this fact, and the Sig.Fig.Button would hide it entirely. I suggest that there's not a "right" line to draw through a set of points either, except in context. Anyone who trusts black-box methods and reports the results without understanding how they're obtained is doing slipshod science. There's lots of that already -- let's not teach more of it! H. Bradford Thompson [Brad] Scholar in Residence, Chemistry & Physics bradt@gac.edu Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, Minnesota 56082 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 14:53:16 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: discussion Barbara Gaddis wrote > In response to George Long asking shouldnt' the students understand > graphing before they come to college: emphatically yes, they should. > However, a large portion (at least of our enteringgemeral chemistry > students do not. Not only can they not assign axes so that most of > the graph paper is used, but they don't know how to interpret the > graph -- what it represents about the trend of the data, what the > slope indicates, even how to calculate the slope. We have had to > design learning modules, teaching students how to (for probably the > twentieth time in their education) how to draw and interpret a > graph. We retest these same students after a semester, and while > their graphing skills show vast improvement, there are still a few > areas not mastered. To them, using a graphing program is a "black > box". Do we go ahead and let them do all the graphs on the computer, > knowing that a large portion do not understand what they're doing? > Or try again to teach them? I'd appreciate any insights from you. At a critical thinking workshop for science teachers we heard and then read about research that shows that it is very hard to correct student misconceptions. Part of the graph problem is misconception. Part is just not having done the required reflective type of study need for mastery of the problem. Why should they learn this stuff if they don't see how it is useful to them and their future career choices. Repeating a topic by special learning modules and then repeating the it again is an effective way to improve performance as Barbara notes. Unfortunately there are limits as to the number of times that a topic or idea can be presented in one course. This led to the finding that there are a core of students , about 15%, for whom no amount of extra practice will effect a change in their understanding of a topic. I have heard that this is attributed to their intellectual maturity level. So where do we put the cut off in repetition in our teaching. I have heard it suggested that if the concept is very important then we work like the dickens to get the full 85%. My own experience however says that that is very difficult. So now what do we do? I think that step one is to have realistic expectations of the students sitting in front of us. Some of them are not ready, willing or able to do what is required in any particular course. These should be advised into appropriate courses. Basic skills if necessary or introductory type courses. This gives them an extra year to mature and some time to pass muster for entrance into more rigorous courses. This is made difficult by the cultural attachment to the magic 4 year curriculum for all students. I have one advisee who is blossoming because I told him that it is OK to take 5 years to finish college. This removed alot of pressure and allowed him to work parttime so that he could afford books and food. Step two involves an appreciation by us that we don't have to do it all in one course. After all we are where we are after many years of study. Our students, if they continue their studies after leaving our schools will have many more years of study ahead of them. By the time they are 40+ they too will be complaining about their students' poor virtual reality skills (or what ever). Some of us will be around to remind them of the great slide rule debate and computer graphing debates. I guess my goal now for my students is to make them independent learners. Give them some modern toys to play with, some modern tasks that develop their basic skills, and challenge them to explore learning and the creation of their own understanding of the world around us. I can't give them mine. They must create their own. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 15:25:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Papers 1 and 9 - Discussion - In-Reply-To: <9307250140.AA07294@umd5.umd.edu> Don Rosenthal and I are not really in disagreement. I agree that all undergraduate chemistry students should know at least a little about word processing, numerical methods, statistical methods, spreadsheets, molecular modelling, plotting, data bases, interfaced instruments, electronic mail, networks, and programming. Some of these (numerical methods, statistical methods, plotting, data bases) do not necessarily depend on computers; they were important before computers came into wide use. Some of these (e.g. word processing, plotting) may already have been done before in their earlier schooling, and in any case have become so easy (even fun) with modern software that most students pick it up with a minimum of instruction. Others (e.g. molecular modeling, interfaced instruments) surely deserve some place in any modern chemistry curriculum. And, I'm sure most people will agree, it's the underlying concepts that are important, not just how to work a particular program. For example, as fun as it is to plot data with a modern direct-manipilation plotting program, it's the basic stuff - such as the difference between dependent and independent variables; the difference between categorical and numerical plots; scaling and scale expansion; the difference between plotting untransformed data on log coordinates and plotting log-transformed data on linear coordinates - that remain important, whether one uses computer technology or pencil-and-paper technology. My list of concepts was not meant to be an agenda for a required undergraduate chemistry curriculum. Rather, my list originated in the following way. For one reason or another, many people come to me when they have problems with computers and computer applications. These people include undergraduate and graduate students and faculty in chemistry and in other science and non-science fields. Over the years I have come to appreciate that most of these problems arise from a lack of understanding of the basic concepts, not because people have never heard of or know nothing about the basic kinds of computer applications. Parva sciencia est res periculosa. The problem is that many people just don't think or don't care about the underlying concepts. Computers are now part of our world, and scientists like to understand the world. I don't mean HOW everything works in tedious detail - that's for specialists. I mean WHY things are the way they are. So my list represents a (first-draft and no doubt incomplete) attempt to write down some things about computers that if people understood, it would save them a lot of time and make their lives a little easier. Now, the question is: who should learn these concepts - and when and where? Well, no single answer is possible, because the state of technology, of our educational system, and of our own conceptual growth and experience is changing all the time. What was impractical and useless a few years ago may become a basic literacy skill in a few years. Each school has to plan a curriculum, under many external and internal constraints, that meets the needs of students, their future employers, and society as best they can. Don Rosental focuses on the needs of CHEMISTS, and I agree; it is our first responsibility to train future chemists. His list is probably very reasonable for the BS level chemist. Some may wish to do a bit more; perhaps some a bit less. But learning does not stop, one hopes, with a BS in chemistry. In addition to being chemists, we are also professionals, scientists, and perhaps even intellectuals. We are living in "interesting times" in terms of computational and communications technology. Let us show students that we are interested in the world in which we live and in the artifacts of our culture - especially those that depend on science and technology - and that we are never going to stop learning. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 15:38:25 EDT From: Allan Smith Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 24 Jul 1993 15:48:14 -0400 from I really like the idea of a significant figures button or function on a calculator or equation solver. The programming should not be difficult: look at the numbers entered by the user, determine their number of sig. fig.s, then apply the rules we argued interminably about several weeks ago. Once there is agreement on a set of rules, the algorithm can't be far down the road. I'd pay a bit more for software or a calculator which did sig figs correctly, since this is the kind of activity computers SHOULD do. We should spend the time with our students explaining to them why (and when) significant figures are really significant. I never go over the sig. fig. rules in lecture, but I do talk about significant figures. I ask students what they think the population of the US is that day. We then look at the 1980 and 1990 Census Bureau data (reported to an impressive 8 significant figures), estimate the rate of change of population, and finally the number of seconds that an eight-digit number would exactly represent the US population on any day. Allan Smith, Chemistry Department, Drexel University ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 15:52:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods In-Reply-To: <9307251634.AA22675@umd5.umd.edu> Computational black boxes are always with us. Consider just four examples that have many important applications in chemistry and in other sciences: the square root, matrix inversion, the Fourier transform, and eigenvalues/eigenvectors. How important is it to be able to calculate these by hand, i.e. using only good old paper-and-pencil technology? How do you personally calculate these in practice? Using some sort of calculator or computer, of course. Is it really important that we know and teach how to compute these things by hand? Not in my opinion. So what is important? To me, it is understanding what these things mean, where they come up and why, what the important applications are, and - very important - what the limits of applicability are and how to check to see if the black box computation is right. (It's also nice to know some programs and programming languages that have those functions as elementary operations. Of course, almost anything has a square root function, but not everything has the others). O.K., O.K., maybe it's good to do it by hand ONCE, with a simple example, just to get the flavor, but then let me at the computer. Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 15:12:42 -0600 From: Gerald Morine Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods There have been lists by Don Rosenthal and Tom O'Haver of the items about computers that all students should know. There is the question of how and when the students should know these things. Right now, we cover computer interfacing, computer control, and databases (as specific topics of study) in Instrumental Analaysis, in the 4th year. I assume everyone agrees this is too late. It would be easy to say that computers should be part of all courses, and we do use instructional software in an increasing number, but most of my colleagues are busy with chemistry and don't want to divert any time for formal instruction in RAM/ROM and the Internet. Isn't the place for formal instuction in the topic "Chemistry and Computers" in the first analytical lecture course? We use "Quantitative Chemical Analysis," by Daniel Harris. It is an excellent analytical text, IMHO. The only mention of computers, however, is in one footnote. If computer topics are going to be introduced into the chemistry curriculum early on, and at all institutions, it has to be included in commercial instructional material. This might be through an INEXPENSIVE paperback supplement initially, and later by inclusion, I think, in analytical textbooks. Gerald Morine, Chemistry Dept., Bemidji State University ghmo@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 15:52:22 EDT From: Allan Smith Subject: Re: Papers 1 and 9 - Discussion - In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 24 Jul 1993 21:38:00 EDT from On Don Rosenthal's discussion of Tom O'Haver's list of central concepts chemistry students should know about computers: I favor Tom's list, although I think that Don's enumeration of important applications for students to use is right on target. Regarding the debate on whether to require students to learn to program in a language: we don't have such a requirement at Drexel any more, but the change has come only in the last two years. Our computer science faculty developed an attractive course in which the central concepts of any procedural computer language ( variables, conditional statements, loops, breaking a large task into maneagable subtasks, and a few others) were all illustrated by features in applications packages the students are learning to use. For example, the concept of a variable was illustrated by explaining how to do a mail-merge and send one letter to a whole mailing list, using a word processor. The change of emphasis leaves students not "knowing FORTRAN" - or Pascal or c or BASIC - but having a firm idea of what computer scientists consider fundamental to their discipline. Is a computer really a tool? I think the time has come to leave that analogy behind. A computer is not like a hammer or even a mechanical saw. It is a rich environment in which one accomplishes mental work of many kinds and qualities. The next time you hear your neighbors talk about computers, listen to how they use the word - sometimes as an adjective, sometimes as a noun, sometimes with scorn or deference or fear. A tool does not invoke that richness of response. I believe we should show our students by our example that the computer is an indispensable part of the environment in which all chemists work and think and create. It's presence has changed the way we all teach and and do chemistry, and it will continue to do so. Allan Smith, Chemistry Department, Drexel University ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 17:15:07 -0400 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation I have been following with great interest the debate over Old vs. New tools. Also, I have been intrigued by David Brooks statements regarding the application of a neurological model to learning (and thus teaching). I have noticed that there is a natural relationship between the two threads that has not come out. To use graphing as an example, consider first that many of you have reported still requiring graphs drawn by hand, and I'm sure most high schools still require students to graph by hand. computer graphing is not in widespread use but yet we complain over the lack of understanding of graphing that students have. Where did the intuition for numbers go? Perhaps some will point to the demon calculator, but many people who have had calculators available from an early age have an intuitive understanding of mathematical concepts. Suppose the change in technology, in particular information and entertainment technology experienced over the last two decades has significantly changed the way students "neural networks are wired." Modern information (and entertainment) is transmitted in a dynamic, visual format. Using the neurological model, it is not suprising that students do not perform well on written word problems, in a quiet room, with only a pencil and paper (and even a calculator). What is suprising (now that I think about it) is that we expect these students to perform the same as students thirty years ago who were raised with radio and comic books, and who were just experiencing live TV for the first time! Maybe students today aren't poorer thinkers, just different thinkers. Since the educator is the more experienced individual, shouldn't S/He have the obligation to change, and provide today's students with input more consistant with the student previous experience (apply the New tools)? If the Neurolgical model is correct, it would appear very difficult to provide today's students with "intuition, insight or critical thinking skills using "the old tools". George Long IUP ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 22:13:18 -0400 From: HARRY PENCE Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation Recently, George Long observed, >Suppose the change in technology, in particular information >and entertainment technology experienced over the last two >decades has significantly changed the way students "neural >networks are wired." Modern information (and entertainment) >is transmitted in a dynamic, visual format. Using the >neurological model, it is not suprising that students do not >perform well on written word problems, in a quiet room, with .only a pencil and paper (and even a calculator). What is >suprising (now that I think about it) is that we expect >these students to perform the same as students thirty years >ago who were raised with radio and comic books, and who >were just experiencing live TV for the first time! Maybe >students today aren't poorer thinkers, just different >thinkers. Since the educator is the more experienced >individual, shouldn't S/He have the obligation to change, >and provide today's students with input more consistant with >the student previous experience (apply the New tools)? If >the Neurolgical model is correct, it would appear very >difficult to provide today's students with "intuition, >insight or critical thinking skills using "the old tools". I strongly agree with George. I think that current students are much more experienced in obtaining knowledge by visual means than in any other way. This is their prefered method of learning. Unfortunately, they have not been trained very well to use this approach, because most of their formal education has focused on reading and listening. To me, this suggests several important conclusions. First, we should use visualization much more in our courses. That shouldn't be difficult, since Chemistry is one of the most visually interesting sciences. Second, we should focus more on teaching students how to observe, that is, help them to sharpen the skills they already have. Finally, we can't give up on reading and listening, but we must understand that we're fighting an uphill battle, and special efforts and techniques will be necessary to do what we once took for granted. Graphical presentations can play a vital role in this process, so both the hand-held graphical calculator and the spreadsheet are prime candidates for introduction into the general chemistry course. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Harry E. Pence BITNET: PENCEHE@SNYONEVA | | Professor of Chemistry PHONE: 607-436-3179 | | SUNY Oneonta FAX: 607-436-2107 | | Oneonta, NY 13820 | ____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 21:51:41 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation > In message Brad Thompson writes: > > A thought on whether students should do the "fundamental operations" > > -- graphing, doing least squares operations, titration, or even > > multiplication/division -- should be done a few times at the fundamental > > level before students are given the black boxes: > > > > I understand that students in the German programs to produce machinists > > and tool-makers still spend some time early on, filing metals by hand! > > Those who haven't done some machining probably view that requirement as > > sadistic. Actually, the difference in "feel" between, day, brass and pure > > nickel, is important if one plans to machine them. Programming Automated > > mills and lathes won't ever give one that feel. > > > > I note in many of my younger colleagues a lack of "feel" for numerical > > quantities, for instruments, for the behavior of chemicals, and even for > > concepts such as orbitals. I describe this to myself as the "black-box > > syndrome". We all use black boxes. However, every time we do, we give up > > some feel for what is going on. It may be a necessary compromise, but it > > is a compromise. That being the case, there isn't a "best" way in every > > case. > > > > Myself, I'm inclined to have students calculate, graph, etc., a few by > > hand, then use the "automated power tools". I agree that there's much to > > be said for giving them the power to do lots of graphs and fits. > > > > By the way, a pocket calculator is a black box, but so was a slide rule > > or a log table -- most users didn't have the least idea why those tools > > worked! The use of each, however, had its own lessons to teach on the > > behavior of numbers. Every exercise on a slide rule reinforced what an > > uncertainty in a result is, in a way that a calculator never does. And the > > ratio concept is visible on a slide rule. And we all learned to estimate > > between scale divisions -- something lots of our students can't do these > > days. And as for log tables, how many of our students can interpolate > > reliably? > > > > Is interpolating, in a table or on a scale, still a valuable skill? > > The hand calculator allows us to require more -- every student now owns a > > powerful numerical-analysis lab (which we grossly under-use). The tragedy > > is that we didn't note what might be lost in the change, and make efforts > > to pick up those skills elsewhere. > > > > H. Bradford Thompson [Brad] > > Scholar in Residence, Chemistry & Physics > > bradt@gac.edu Gustavus Adolphus College > > Saint Peter, Minnesota 56082 > > > > Amen. Having been through it all from log tables to ultra-micro computers I > heartily agree in the lack of the skills for estimation and for significance > of numbers. I remember doing all my PhD thesis calculations on a18 place > Marchant electronic (ie the electricity drove the gears) calculator and > having thje first electronic calculator (a Sharp @ $600 disd +/- ?> ans *). I > > find students today blindly record the numbers they get with no > understanding of the magnitude or the units, something the slide rule made us > do. (? Are bridges safer today than 30 years ago because we can get a better > answer, or is the fuzzyness of the real world greater than the 7 decimal > places an electronic calculator or proigram can givce us?). I feel part of > the blame has to be in the lower level courses and in grade and high school. > Just what are they doing today? I don't know but will find out as I have > three kids under 6 who will start into the system. Is anyone looking at what > is going on at that level? We all know how hard it is to change old habits > but we need to at least start the process. Thus I agree that there needs to > be some hand exercises in class with no electronics, eg estimation skills > like my previous problem of what the mass of the earth would be if it were > made of frogs. Try that one on yourself. (answer is about 10^27 grams) or > Avagardo# of 4 lb (1.8 Kg) giant bullfrogs packeded as Escher Fraogs with a > density of water. Do students still use the CRC Handbook, I certainly don't > see it in my applied food science courses as I sit here to verify that the > earth has a 4 mile radius (pg 3367 in the 40th edition). What have we been > doing to create this situation or is it not of any consequence? > > But lamenting will not help, we need to do something. I feel that a major > outcome of this conference is that not only did we look at the new > technologies used in teaching, we began the process of examining their impact > on the education system. Certainly there are still many good students out > there who learn on their own despite the system. Are there enough? If we > cater to the others what impact will it have on society, especially where #'s > can be easily manipulated, eg Clinton's latest speech which projects new jobs > based on irrelevant data that even his staff said was useless. Is Nintendo > and the like making us into a society of "Visualites" who have quick resonse > to computer generated visual data and are willing to push the death button > based on a computers data. I have wandered and I am not a Luddite, I value > technology and what it has done, but we in the ivory tower must instill a > sense of feeling into the data that people use, capturing the Heisenberg > "Uncertainty" in all our observations. If we all calculate $ to two decimals > why not use this as a means to test the sensibility and validity of our > estimation skills. Interestingly in the St Paul Sunday paper (7/25/93) there > was an article on the need to get rid of the penny in our monetary system). > > Computers and graphics programs have made my life easier and have improved my > research, but I learned the "hard way". Was that hard way a valuable > experience? Do our cuurent students need that exercise? Few people can > inherently hit like Dave Wilfield or Cal Griffy, they learned the hard way. > Will students object to being forced to going through "Hard Way" exercises, > how can we make them more enjoyable and educational? When do we stop or do we > always do it, I certainly do it in my consulting on a regular basis. > > Estimation skills are about deciding on the guiding principles and paragigms > and taking a first shot but doing it with some sense of reality. I recently > sat through a meeting for the strategic planning for a university > organization in which they used a straight line % estimate from 5 years ago > and today to project where they would be 5 years from now. One such estimate > was on the # of minorities that should be in the organization. Based on their > record, very few minorities in 1987, and 2% now, they projected a minority > level of 28% for 1997.No one questioned what the US demographics were (ie a > projectioin to ~18%).To me that is the problem witrh people today, they take > the easy route rather than think about why they are using the tools they need > to use, ie lewarning the "Hard Way". Based on this conference, I feel that I > am justified in making graduate students do hand graphs in class. I hope the > conference organizers can take 10 or so ideas from these discussions and > start a Listserve to continue the discussion. I certainly have benefited from > it and well as have felt the frustration of others. Perhaps 2-3 weeks of > discyussion on each though with several of us volunteering to coallate the > thoughs into pros, cons and others and write it up for some publication such > as the J Chem Education. That might help to make it a lasting and impactful > piece. If we do that, I would ask that where appropriate, references to other > works be detailed, for use in publication. > > > Dr Ted Labuza Department of Food Science and Nutrition 136 ABLMS University of Minnesota St. Paul MN 55108 Voice 612-624-9701 or Home 612-633-8928 Fax 612-625-5272 or Home Fax 612-633-0627 There is no such thing as a poverty of time, rather there is a poverty of being able to say "NO". Dr Ted Labuza Department of Food Science and Nutrition 136 ABLMS University of Minnesota St. Paul MN 55108 Voice 612-624-9701 or Home 612-633-8928 Fax 612-625-5272 or Home Fax 612-633-0627 There is no such thing as a poverty of time, rather there is a poverty of being able to say "NO". ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 21:52:55 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Re: Understanding What One Is Doing In message Mary Swift writes: > My experience is much the same as Brad Thompson's. Some of the younger > members of my department appear to have little understanding of the under- > lying (bio)chemistry of what they are doing. Recently I proposed a new > computer skills/concepts course for biochemistry majors and my colleagues > were unable to understand that I wanted the students to devise the > computation (set up the problem). I do not propose to teach kinetics or > statistics just how to use the computer and appropriate software to solve > a problem that the student has. My colleagues said well the computer just > does it, right? Frankly, I didn't know how to respond civilly (probably > the influence of one of our frequent contributors). My goal in proposing > the course is to teach the applications/pitfalls of this powerful tool. > the subject/problems just happen to be drawn from the life sciences. Again > there was sort of an unexpectee > d response from some faculty. > > At any rate, we have to decide to what extent we are training "blind" > technicians or thinking/critical researchers. Once this is answered the > question of whether a black box or understanding "it all, top to bottom" > approach will be answered. In answering this question what is the goal > (in the late 20th century) of undergraduate education? graduate education? > It seems to me (on my worst days) that undergraduate education is remedial > high school. If this trend is not broken what happens to gradur > graduate education? > > > Mary L. Swift > Biochemistry > Howard University > Mary Swift has asked and stated our greatest problem. Secondary education no longer can do what it was supposed to do. Is it the fault of the background of the teachers, eg few high school physics teachers ever had courses in physics or use of computers or the fact that over 30 states now are running in the red so sometrhing must be cut, teachers Unions are not that powerful because the teachres like to teach, thats why they and we are here!! As a past director of Graduate Studies in several programs and in the running to be a party time Dean in the Graduate Scvhool at the U of Minnesota, I have great concern for our most important resource to society, ie the graduate student. I go back to a point I made about 2 months ago (was it that long) on this conference, ie the lack of critical thinking skills. Craig Hassel in my dept has puyt together several very valuable tools for faculty and students to assess their own critical thinking skils (CHASSEL@che2.che.umn.edu). Drop him a note and I'm sure he will send it to you. I am working with him on how to incorporate these skills as well as quantitative thinking skills (eg estimations) into primarily biological science courses. We lament in our NNutrition program, that biochemistry has become molecular biology, and no one teaches the value and complexity of the metabolic pathways anymore. When do we stop putting in the molecular level at the demise of the whole (holistic?) level? I wish I could come up witrh an analogy from the past to support Mary's problem with her colleagues. Santayana said that if we forget the past we will repeat the mistakes of the past, will it be true that if we blindly use high tech without understanding the limitations and basic paradigms we will end up making big high tech mistakes. A rebuttal is that we don't need to use a telephone to use it or the combustion cycle to drive a car, I wonder if we really should and perhaps if we did we would not need to teach the blind on the use of balck boxes. Too much good french wine on a lazy Sunday afternoon!!!!!!! Dr Ted Labuza Department of Food Science and Nutrition 136 ABLMS University of Minnesota St. Paul MN 55108 Voice 612-624-9701 or Home 612-633-8928 Fax 612-625-5272 or Home Fax 612-633-0627 There is no such thing as a poverty of time, rather there is a poverty of being able to say "NO". ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 21:55:16 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Re: pchem and papers 1,3,10 In message theresa Julia Zielinski writes: > > > After reading these papers my opinion is that a much greater > effort needs to be made to get the computer into the pchem > classroom has been reinforced. Here again if the computer is > used in class then something else must go, specifically some of > the time that the teacher spends talking, usually too fast for > real learning to take place. It is no wonder that students > don't ask questions. They are overwhelmed. > > My proposal is to give students a reasonable list of things > that they must do before class - read sections of the text or > provided notes and answer a set of questions and do a set of > problems. Hold the students accountable by administering a > quiz at the start of class. Use class time for exploring the > preassigned material more deeply - it is here that computers > come in handy - and the pchem class may even need to be run in > a computer lab at times. This approach radically changes the > role of the professor. S/He becomes a mentor/coach who uses > class dynamics and group dynamics to guide and implement the > learning process. In turn the students will no longer be > allowed to remain as passive blobs in an assigned seat. They > must work in class in assigned groups or pairs to complete the > activity for the day. > > The usual argument offered to this type of teaching is that > there is too much content to cover in order to be able to do it > this way. My answer is as follows. first consider what > happens in a typical course. During lecture the valuable > information that we are transmitting in a very polished and > formal way usually goes in the eyes and out the pencil of the > student without much and possible no interaction with the > brain. The amount of learning seems to have little or no > connection to the quality of the lecture or preparation of the > professor. Where does the real learning occur - in the > library, the students rooms, the night before an exam? These > are all times when we have no access to them nor they to us. > > How do we induce deep learning, the kind that sets patterns for > scholarship over a life time and creates a level of self > confidence in the student while engaging his mind actively in > the learning process? > > A tall order isn't it. Impossible - NO. Hard work for the > instructor YES especially at first. > > This is where the computer fits in beautifully. Move the > computer in pchem into the class for more than data analysis. > Use it to display complex diagrams. Use it for exploration of > equation properties. Use it to demonstrate reactions in > motion, molecules in motion, and experiments. Use it for > simulations. Get the students to see something, put it in 3D, > rotate it look at it from all angles, turn it inside out if > necessary, and then probe their understanding. We don't need > to wait for them to have the math skills of the Moscow > University students in order to give them a taste of doing and > appreciating more complex things. And when we give them all of > these things to do we must also give them time to reflect about > what they are doing. If not then we will be back to us covering > the material and them just nodding in agreement and amazement > and feeling that they will never be able to do these things on > their own. > > It will be hard work to set up all of the learning tools and > assessment tools but if we don't start it will never get done. > > Final questions: > > 1. What specific computer exercises do the pchem teachers do in > class as an alternative to lecturing about a topic? > > 2. What and how many computer illustrations/simulations do > pchem teachers use during class? > > 3. How do the pchem teachers assess the effectiveness of these > alternatives to straight lecture? > > 4. Other than hour exams, quizzes and homework (is it graded?) > how do the pchem teachers assess student learning of a > particular topic? > This was a great note for this conference. It emphasizes our dilema. In talking with C. Hassel our resident Critical Thinking guru, he notes that studies show that the best one can doo in a course is get over 12-15 major principles that the students will learn and retain (they forget 85% of the memory and regurgitation stuff). The computer should be used to help enhace the learning of these principles, thus the skills on using the computer really should come at an earlier stage. As knowledge iuncreases exponentially, we have to "dare" to lave stuff out, but what? What will our colleagues think? I think a lot of that can go is stuff that is repetitive, we give into the complex that we each know the material best so we start from scratch such as teaching spreadsheet use at the senior level and the students are smart, they say thay haven't had it before. What we need to do is coordinate our courses, we are doing this in our own program (food science) now but not with the chemistry, physics and calculus instructors so it is half hearted at a major university. Perhaps it would work in smaller institutions. As to interactive teaching in the classroom, it is a scary business because we are not all sure that it will work in the long run,m eg the grade/high school debacle on group theory for math. I believe that students lack group skills, a desirable and required skill at the industrial level, but they are taught to compete for grades (if we scale a course so there are always 10% A's etc) we encoursge them not to work together. I applaud Zielinski for trying these new concepts out, but what do we do in a larger class. I added in such practices in a 50-60 student Introductory class and had to drop 40% of the material, it still bugs me today, but "I think" the class is better. I have not received any significant diffreneces in the course evaluations however! When we key tring to innovate there is no baseline for comparison. As I said in a recent speech on teaching quantitative skills, we need to dare to leave something out, don't try to jam everything in and we need to rethink the course each time we teach it. Dr Ted Labuza Department of Food Science and Nutrition 136 ABLMS University of Minnesota St. Paul MN 55108 Voice 612-624-9701 or Home 612-633-8928 Fax 612-625-5272 or Home Fax 612-633-0627 There is no such thing as a poverty of time, rather there is a poverty of being able to say "NO". ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 23:33:31 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods Brad Thompson writes: > John Woolcock, with his "Sig.Fig.Button" suggestion, has provided a > fine example of the danger of black boxes. We could, indeed, encase > within a (physical) black box, the calculator, another (conceptual) > black box, the ridiculous text sig.fig. rules. Lots of users would > use the results blindly. Others, seeing or sensing the absurdity of > the answers, would blame numerical calculators as a class. > There's no "right" number of digits for a number, except (sometimes) > in a specific context. The text rules obscure this fact, and the > Sig.Fig.Button would hide it entirely. I did not take the "Sig.Fig.Button" to mean the calculator would apply the rough rules for significant figures which generated so much heat recently on the CHEMED-L listserv. I think what was implied that the calculator might carry (in HP RPN fashion) two stacks, a numerical stack containing the numbers to be processed, and an error stack containing the errors in the numbers to be processed. The functions (addition, subtraction multiplication, division, logs, exponentials, etc.) would calculate the numerical result on the one stack, and the resulting error on the other stack. By doing these calculations in parallel, one could get the correct (eg. applied error propagation) error in the result which is only approximated by the rough significant figure rules. Such a process would not generate the anomalies discussed on the CHEMED-L listserv. Personally, I have no problem with the ROUGH rules, and clearly explain to students that they are only rough approximations. I think students can see that there is not a significant difference between 99 +/-1 and 101 +/- 1 although the rough rules specify the former as two and the latter as three significant figures. For analytical chemistry students, texts such as Skoog, West, and Holler present error propagation in the statistics chapter. As has been discussed earlier, it is not necessary to load the first year chemistry student with every bit of complexity. The example given earlier, I believe, was chemical equilibrium. While the general chemistry student is given a concentration dependent approach, the analytical student is exposed to the effects of activities. There are problems with ignoring activities, but these need not be faced until the student moves beyond general chemistry. ___________________________________________________________ | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 00:38:37 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Papers 1 and 9 - Discussion - Tom O'Haver writes > employers, and society as best they can. Don Rosental > focuses on the needs of CHEMISTS, and I agree; it is our first > responsibility to train future chemists. His list is > probably very reasonable for the BS level chemist. Some may > wish to do a bit more; perhaps some a bit less. But > learning does not stop, one hopes, with a BS in chemistry. Yes our responsibility is to train chemists but there is a broader responsibility - to educate a scientifically literate population. If we don't do that we will be talking to ourselves. We are surely outnumbered by the non chemists who view us as odd types. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 00:47:48 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation > the student previous experience (apply the New tools)? If > the Neurolgical model is correct, it would appear very > difficult to provide today's students with "intuition, > insight or critical thinking skills using "the old tools". > > George Long This nails the concept. We the experienced educators must design the tools and the uses of modern technology to train and educate students who are as different from us as we are different from our parents. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 02:05:53 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 25 Jul 1993 15:12:42 -0600 from We tried computer applications in the 5th edition of Analytical Chemistry: An Introduction (Skoog, et al., 1990). They were universally regarded as disposable by reviewers. Should we put them back in? On Sun, 25 Jul 1993 15:12:42 -0600 Gerald Morine said: >There have been lists by Don Rosenthal and Tom O'Haver of the items about >computers that all students should know. There is the question of how and >when the students should know these things. Right now, we cover computer >interfacing, computer control, and databases (as specific topics of study) >in Instrumental Analaysis, in the 4th year. I assume everyone agrees this >is too late. > >It would be easy to say that computers should be part of all courses, and >we do use instructional software in an increasing number, but most of my >colleagues are busy with chemistry and don't want to divert any time for >formal instruction in RAM/ROM and the Internet. > >Isn't the place for formal instuction in the topic "Chemistry and >Computers" in the first analytical lecture course? We use "Quantitative >Chemical Analysis," by Daniel Harris. It is an excellent analytical text, IMHO. >The only mention of computers, however, is in one footnote. > >If computer topics are going to be introduced into the chemistry curriculum >early on, and at all institutions, it has to be included in commercial >instructional material. This might be through an INEXPENSIVE paperback >supplement initially, and later by inclusion, I think, in analytical textbooks. > >Gerald Morine, Chemistry Dept., Bemidji State University >ghmo@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 04:37:17 -0500 Reply-To: Ted Labuza From: Ted Labuza Subject: Reality of numbers In message Brad Thompson writes: > > A thought on whether students should do the "fundamental operations" > > -- graphing, doing least squares operations, titration, or even > > multiplication/division -- should be done a few times at the fundamental > > level before students are given the black boxes: > > > > I understand that students in the German programs to produce machinists > > and tool-makers still spend some time early on, filing metals by hand! > > Those who haven't done some machining probably view that requirement as > > sadistic. Actually, the difference in "feel" between, day, brass and pure > > nickel, is important if one plans to machine them. Programming Automated > > mills and lathes won't ever give one that feel. > > > > I note in many of my younger colleagues a lack of "feel" for numerical > > quantities, for instruments, for the behavior of chemicals, and even for > > concepts such as orbitals. I describe this to myself as the "black-box > > syndrome". We all use black boxes. However, every time we do, we give up > > some feel for what is going on. It may be a necessary compromise, but it > > is a compromise. That being the case, there isn't a "best" way in every > > case. > > > > Myself, I'm inclined to have students calculate, graph, etc., a few by > > hand, then use the "automated power tools". I agree that there's much to > > be said for giving them the power to do lots of graphs and fits. > > > > By the way, a pocket calculator is a black box, but so was a slide rule > > or a log table -- most users didn't have the least idea why those tools > > worked! The use of each, however, had its own lessons to teach on the > > behavior of numbers. Every exercise on a slide rule reinforced what an > > uncertainty in a result is, in a way that a calculator never does. And the > > ratio concept is visible on a slide rule. And we all learned to estimate > > between scale divisions -- something lots of our students can't do these > > days. And as for log tables, how many of our students can interpolate > > reliably? > > > > Is interpolating, in a table or on a scale, still a valuable skill? > > The hand calculator allows us to require more -- every student now owns a > > powerful numerical-analysis lab (which we grossly under-use). The tragedy > > is that we didn't note what might be lost in the change, and make efforts > > to pick up those skills elsewhere. > > > > H. Bradford Thompson [Brad] > > Scholar in Residence, Chemistry & Physics > > bradt@gac.edu Gustavus Adolphus College > > Saint Peter, Minnesota 56082 > > > > Amen. Having been through it all from log tables to ultra-micro computers I > heartily agree in the lack of the skills for estimation and for significance > of numbers. I remember doing all my PhD thesis calculations on an18 place > Marchant electronic (ie the electricity drove the gears) calculator and > having thje first electronic calculator (a Sharp @ $600 did +/- div and *). I > > find students today blindly record the numbers they get with no > understanding of the magnitude or the units, something the slide rule made us > do. (? Are bridges safer today than 30 years ago because we can get a better > answer, or is the fuzzyness of the real world greater than the 7 decimal > places an electronic calculator or program can give us?). I feel part of > the blame has to be in the lower level courses and in grade and high school. > Just what are they doing today? I don't know but will find out as I have > three kids under 6 who will start into the system. Is anyone looking at what > is going on at that level? We all know how hard it is to change old habits > but we need to at least start the process. Thus I agree that there needs to > be some hand exercises in class with no electronics, eg estimation skills > like my previous problem of what the mass of the earth would be if it were > made of frogs. Try that one on yourself. (answer is about 10^27 grams) or > Avagardo# of 4 lb (1.8 Kg) giant bullfrogs packeded as Escher Frogs with a > density of water. Do students still use the CRC Handbook, I certainly don't > see it in my applied food science courses as I sit here to verify that the > earth has a 4 mile radius (pg 3367 in the 40th edition). What have we been > doing to create this situation or is it not of any consequence? > > But lamenting will not help, we need to do something. I feel that a major > outcome of this conference is that not only did we look at the new > technologies used in teaching, we began the process of examining their impact > on the education system. Certainly there are still many good students out > there who learn on their own despite the system. Are there enough? If we > cater to the others what impact will it have on society, especially where #'s > can be easily manipulated, eg Clinton's latest speech which projects new jobs > based on irrelevant data that even his staff said was useless. Is Nintendo > and the like making us into a society of "Visualites" who have quick resonse > to computer generated visual data (Virtual Reality) and are willing to push the death button > based on a computers data. I have wandered and I am not a Luddite, I value > technology and what it has done, but we in the ivory tower must instill a > sense of feeling into the data that people use, capturing the Heisenberg > "Uncertainty" in all our observations. If we all calculate $ to two decimals > why not use this as a means to test the sensibility and validity of our > estimation skills. Interestingly in the St Paul Sunday paper (7/25/93) there > was an article on the need to get rid of the penny in our monetary system). > > Computers and graphics programs have made my life easier and have improved my > research, but I learned the "hard way". Was that hard way a valuable > experience? Do our cuurent students need that exercise? Few people can > inherently hit like Dave Wilfield or Cal Griffy, they learned the hard way. > Will students object to being forced to going through "Hard Way" exercises, > how can we make them more enjoyable and educational? When do we stop or do we > always do it, I certainly do it in my consulting on a regular basis. > > Estimation skills are about deciding on the guiding principles and paragigms > and taking a first shot but doing it with some sense of reality. I recently > sat through a meeting for the strategic planning for a university > organization in which they used a straight line % estimate from 5 years ago > and today to project where they would be 5 years from now without taking into consideration the world of reality.To me that is the problem with people today is that they take > the easy route rather than think about why they are using the tools they need > to use, ie lewarning the "Hard Way". Based on this conference, I feel that I > am justified in making graduate students do hand graphs in class. I hope the > conference organizers can take 10 or so ideas from these discussions and > start a Listserve to continue the discussion. I certainly have benefited from > it and well as have felt the frustration of others. Perhaps 2-3 weeks of > discussion on each though with several of us volunteering to coallate the > thoughs into pros, cons and others and write it up for some publication such > as the J Chem Education. That might help to make it a lasting and impactful > piece. If we do that, I would ask that where appropriate, references to other > works be detailed, for use in publication. Dr Ted Labuza Department of Food Science and Nutrition 136 ABLMS University of Minnesota St. Paul MN 55108 Voice 612-624-9701 or Home 612-633-8928 Fax 612-625-5272 or Home Fax 612-633-0627 There is no such thing as a poverty of time, rather there is a poverty of being able to say "NO". ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 08:29:00 EDT From: "Peter Gold, Penn State U. (814) 865-7694" Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation In-Reply-To: ASMITH AT DUVM.OCS.DREXEL.EDU -- Sun, 25 Jul 1993 15:38:25 EDT The "significant figures" calculator button already exists in a sense in a more sophisticated and useful form. We have a ten-year-old Hewlett Packard 8450 UV-VIS spectrophotometer in our p. chem lab. It is controlled by a keypad-operated microprocessor, which includes a calculator mode. It can be used to do computations in the ordinary way but numbers can also be entered with their uncertainties and the uncertainties are propagated through the calculation to give the answer with its correct uncertainty. I've never seen a calculator with this feature, however. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 09:13:00 EST From: "DR. LISA KINTNER CHEMISTRY DEPARTMENT, UPJ, JOHNSTOWN PA" Subject: Paper 11 Questions Questions for Carl H. Snyder, Paper 11 "Applications of Networked Computers and Electronic Mail in a Chemistry Course for nonScience Students" 1. Was the question of security brought up with respect to students having access to the Department LAN? If so, how did you resolve the situation? 2. I presume that similar menu progrmas could be used in a Windows or Mac environment. Lisa Kintner Department of Chemistry University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown Johnstown PA KINTNER@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 10:13:21 -0400 From: HARRY PENCE Subject: New Tools vs. Old Methods I'm a little surprised that Tom Labuza has had so much trouble using coperative learning in his large lectures. I use lecture partners in a lecture section of 80 to 100, and it works great. The students love it, and the only problem I've encountered is that my students keep pestering other instructors to ask why they don't do something similar. At first, I covered less material, but as I've learned how to use the techniques, I would guess that I cover about 10-20% less material. I'd be very interested in how the Labusa's class is set up. Sorry if this response is inappropriate since I'm past the weekend, but my e-mail has been out for the past several weeks, and I'm so happy to be back on line that my enthusiasm overwhelmed my sense of propriety. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Harry E. Pence BITNET: PENCEHE@SNYONEVA | | Professor of Chemistry PHONE: 607-436-3179 | | SUNY Oneonta FAX: 607-436-2107 | | Oneonta, NY 13820 | ____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 11:09:45 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: New Tools vs. Old Methods I guess that Harry Pence was a bit fast on the draw/ keyboard. It is not unusual for traditional teachers to find the potential energy barrier to using groups in class a bit high. It is also normal for us to question ourselves and ask if we are doing the right thing. The techniques are so different from what most of us experienced as students. and Some places have many faculty who are very negative about any classroom innovation. It would be better if we remembered our goal - to produce thinking adult scientists and non scientists. Damn the torpedoes and full steam ahead. Lets teach less and have learning happen more. > problem I've encountered is that my students keep pestering other instructors > to ask why they don't do something similar. I've heard this happen to others too. > At first, I covered less material, but as I've learned how > to use the techniques, I would guess that I cover about > 10-20% less material. Yes, to cover less is also normal from what I've heard at meetings. but see Skewered on the Unicorn's Horn: The Illusion of Tragic Tradeoff Between Content and Critical Thinking by Craig Nelson in Enhancing Critical Thinking in the Sciences ed by Linda Crow Published by the Society of College Science Teachers 1989 from Dr. Nelson's essay: "The steps that facilitate critical thinking also facilitate content aquisition. ....A higher proportion of the class now masters difficult content. Further much of the content will be retained as examples of critical thinking processes. Thus, the tradeoffs between the teaching of processes and the teaching of content that once seemed so evident are, in practice, as imaginary as unicorn horns." I want to emphasize once again. We must assess the learning more frequently and not only by exams. How do we know that they have 'gotten it'? When we "cover material" we've 'gotten it' but do they. Can they even envision themselves as 'getting it' on their own? Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 10:36:53 -0500 From: david brooks Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods -- A General Observation In-Reply-To: <01H0ZT06SQUY001DHT@crcvms.unl.edu> from "George Long" at Jul 25, 93 05:15:07 pm Thank you, George Long, for: > If > the Neurolgical model is correct, it would appear very > difficult to provide today's students with "intuition, > insight or critical thinking skills using "the old tools". ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 12:12:45 -0400 From: "James E. Van Verth" Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods This has been a very interesting discussion. Sorry for the late contribution, but my mainframe connection was down yesterday, and I am just catching up. I'll make this a short as possible. We have all worried about this. But how many of us, in our education, have used "black boxes" before we really understood how they worked. ALL of us, I would guess. In the course of using them (or perhaps not until we had to teach others about them) we have gained a more detailed understanding. We sometime forget that the course we are teaching is not the end of a student's education. Nor is the sum total of all the courses taught for the undergraduate (or graduate) degree. A number of messages to CHEMCONF and CHEMED-L have included the comment that "most of the chemistry I know was learned after graduate school." Not an uncommon observation, and I would guess that in that body of knowledge is usually some very fundamental stuff that "should" have been learned in general chemistry. James E. Van Verth Department of Chemistry VANVERTH@CANISIUS.BITNET Canisius College, Buffalo, NY 14208 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 12:17:04 EDT From: "C. H. Lochmuller" Subject: Re: New Tools vs. Old Methods In-Reply-To: <9307261546.AA00402@umd5.umd.edu>; from "theresa Julia Zielinski" at Jul 26, 93 11:09 am Theresa Zielinski is quite correct in her concerns {IMNSHO}. I introduced in class computation with graphical display in 1976 here with special caution to achieve "computer enhanced learning/understanding" and to avoid "computer obstucted learning" - the alternative. The organic people thought it was a silly move at the time. They now do full-screen projection of the results of Allinger-type calculations using real-time manipulation and assign homework on our cluster devoted to that use by undergrads. Progress? Perhaps but it took 16 years and the changepver of half the faculty in that area. As for "Teach less and learn more" that's a fine idea except just as one cannot begin real interdisciplinary work before mastering at least one discipline, one needs to give students the tools to understand what might be learned? I get students at this place who all graduated above the top 5% of the nation, who arrived in a class with median combined SAT's of 1300+ and who do not know what an electronic excited state is as seniors! Why? Because we spend a great deal of time worrying that they will experience "discovery" before they can use a compass. { The Mr. Roger's approach to lab: Take solution marked A pour some in container. Take solution B and pour some in as well. Did anything happen? Can you spell 'precipitate'?}. Have they had the words electronic transition state pass through their brains to their note-taking pen before I see them - yes. Do they understand? Not really. If "teach less - learn more" means develop the beginning of a chemical intuition as a process in the major courses - then yes. If it means learn what is on the exam I cooked up ten years ago and have once again changed not the problems but the numbers - then no. CHL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 12:13:06 -0600 From: "David A. Boyles" Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods We might do well to remember that the "factor label method" is one of the most rudimentary--and yet utilitarian--black boxes used in general chemistry. In a very real way it completely short-circuits an intuitive feel for problem solving, something which can only develop over time upon repeated application. I played Clementi in fifth grade, but I don't play him now like I did then...now, with more "feel" and "understanding." David A. Boyles Department of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering South Dakota School of Mines and Technology Rapid City, SD 57701 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:28:04 MST From: Elizabeth Dorland Subject: Re: new vs. old methods James E. Van Verth wrote: >We sometime forget that the course we are teaching is not the end of >a student's education. Nor is the sum total of all the courses >taught for the undergraduate (or graduate) degree. A number of >messages to CHEMCONF and CHEMED-L have included the comment that >"most of the chemistry I know was learned after graduate school." >Not an uncommon observation, and I would guess that in that body of >knowledge is usually some very fundamental stuff that "should" have >been learned in general chemistry. I've often thought about this. There are many concepts from freshman chemistry which I only really understood after I started teaching. And I was an "A" student, as were probably most of you. Does this mean that I was not well taught? Or is it simply normal and necessary to be exposed to the material in several courses over a period of time in order to absorb it? Remembering my experience, I certainly try to bring the concepts back into discussion multiple times during the semester, but I don't know if I am doing things "better" than they were done to me and whether more learning is the result. I didn't feel deprived at the time. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 17:36:19 -0500 From: "Alfred J. Lata" Subject: The new Chemistry 'Wonder Machine' Dear Colleagues: There has been a lot of talk about how we will and should use computers in our courses. But we will probably find more an immediate impact on our courses with the new graphic hand-held calculators that our Math colleagues are, and/or will be, using in calc classes. For the price of a 'couple' of text books (and to ensure 'passing' Chemistry) students can a Sparcom Pac for the graphic programmable HP's: 'General Chemistry Applications Pac ($90) over 150 equations from kinetics, acids/bases, gases, precipitation and more. Plot pH titration curves and radial functions. Periodic Table includes 14 properties of each element. A chemical equation writer that calculates theoretical yields, limiting reagents, and checks balance. Molecular weight calculator.' and 'Chem Reference Library ($90) over 3000 entries in eleven subject areas; elements, solids, liquids, gases, acids/bases, thermodynamics, complexes, solubilities, electrochemistry, water and bonds.' This is not an advertisement, but for your information: this is what is available at your bookstore. A lot of instructors are going to have to make the investment to see what the students have available!!! These 'machines' will change what and how we teach!! What will we expect students to know, and be able to do, to be Chemically knowledeable?? Alfred J. Lata lata@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 20:17:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 11 - Some Short Questions Paper 11 - Short Questions for Carl H. Snyder "Applications of Networked Computers and Electronic Mail in a Chemistry Course for Non-Science Students" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. From the Syllabus (PAPER11SYL.TXT) I gather that this scheme was used in the second half of a two semester sequence. Was course evaluation done both semesters? Were there any differences in course evaluations or specific comments which might provide some indication of the success of your scheme? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. In section 4.1 you mention "Review Questions" using Diploma IV. a. Can you show us a set of questions with comments for one chapter? b. Can you tell us a little more about Diploma IV? What unique features does the package have which made you decide to use it rather than a simple word processor? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Am I correct in assuming that each dialog in PAPER11HWK.TXT was between A student and you? Would there be some advantage to making this dialog available to ALL students (protecting the anonymity of the student)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. What do you consider to be the advantages and disadvantages of your scheme a. from the perspective of the student? b. from the perspective of the instructor? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. Are there any plans to use this scheme with chemistry majors? If so in which course or courses? If not, why not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 21:40:14 -0500 From: Barry Rowe Subject: Re: new vs. old methods >I've often thought about this. There are many concepts from freshman >chemistry which I only really understood after I started teaching. How true! I think an awful lot of learning is 'readiness'. I think most 18 & 19 year olds are not 'ready' in maturity, experience, or mathematical understanding to do much more than memorize algorithms and facts in beginning Chemistry. They are simply not ready to progress to the synthesis necessary to get 'the big picture'. They are learning about life -- often their first real experience away from home and on their own. They can set their own hours, their own study times, and their own habits. They choose their own friends and their own relationships. They are learning all of this, and there is a lot of 'lab work' involved. I know I was certainly not a very good student, but have improved an enormous amount since I don't want to look like a fool in front of 130 students each day! And somehow, all of that stuff I learned during the late 60's seems so easy now -- and it fits together so well!! barry [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] Barry E. Rowe browe@ncsa.uiuc.edu NCSA ChemViz group 240 CAB, 152 E. Springfield Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 21:46:54 CDT From: Brad Thompson Subject: New Tools Vs. Old Methods Allan Smith writes, re: the Sig.Fig.Button: > The programming should not be difficult: > look at the numbers entered by the user, determine their number of > sig. fig.s, then apply the rules we argued interminably about several weeks > ago. Once there is agreement on a set of rules, the algorithm can't be > far down the road. I'd pay a bit more for software or a calculator which > did sig figs correctly, since this is the kind of activity computers > SHOULD do. "Once there is agreement ... ." Ah, there's the rub. Should we propagate the uncertainty from just one datum? Is so, which, and how is the calculator to choose? If not, should we assume the data are independent? If not, do we make the worst-case assumption? If not, do we require that the user provide the covariance? Want more? I've got lots more! "Sig Figs" are a crude, simple approximation for a complex subject -- propagation of numerical uncertainties. Building some necessarily oversimplified method into a calculator would further enshrine bad methods. Black boxes are a necessary evil. I know we've got to use them -- no one can build everything from scratch. But we ought to do our best to (1) understand their limits, and (2) insist on precise 'specs on what the boxes do. And we ought to encourage our students to do likewise, if what we're doing is really education. I've got lots of practical experience with the sig-fig uncertainty propagation business. In our individualized-data-homework-supervisor program we built in an option that follows the propagation by re-doing the calculation, assuming a change of one in the least digit of each datum in turn. This is, indeed, "the kind of activity computers SHOULD do." By the way, the programming *is* difficult -- or at least tricky! But the most discouraging thing I learned from doing this is that otherwise sophisticated colleagues simply would not believe the results, until challenged to test the propagation themselves! The freshman s.f. rules "black box" dominates the thinking of even some university professors! Of course, it's had a long time to work its evil. H. Bradford Thompson [Brad] Scholar in Residence, Chemistry & Physics bradt@gac.edu Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, Minnesota 56082 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 00:45:13 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: New Tools vs. Old Methods >From: "C. H. Lochmuller" >As for "Teach less and learn more" that's a fine idea except >just as one cannot begin real interdisciplinary work before >mastering at least one>discipline, one needs to give students >the tools to understand what might be learned? Question: when in a student's career is he considered to have mastered a discipline? One possible answer >>We sometime forget that the course we are teaching is not the >>end of a student's education. Nor is the sum total of all the >>courses taught for the undergraduate (or graduate) degree. A >>number of messages to CHEMCONF and CHEMED-L have included the >>comment that "most of the chemistry I know was learned after >>graduate school." Not an uncommon observation, and I would >>guess that in that body of knowledge is usually some very >>fundamental stuff that "should" have been learned in general >>chemistry. >>James E. Van Verth Department of Chemistry >From CHL again >I get students at this place who all graduated above the top >5% of the nation, who arrived in a class with median combined >SAT's of 1300+ and who do not know what an electronic excited >state is as seniors! Why? Because we spend a great deal of >time worrying that they will experience "discovery" before >they can use a compass. { The Mr. Roger's approach to lab: >Take solution marked A pour some in container. Take solution B >and pour some in as well. Did anything happen? Can you spell >'precipitate'?}. It seems that the discovery method of doing chemistry is being misapplied or misunderstood. As you know one of the purposes of the discovery the approach is to get students to honestly report their observations. Too often students want to know what the right answer is without just looking at a solution and reporting what they see. They look at a test tube with a bunch of white stuff at the bottom of a supernatant liquid layer and they ask "is this a precipitate?" My God!, they don't believe their eyes. They will show you something yellow and ask, "is this yellow?" This happened in general chem when I taught labs. It happened year after year. I'm sure it still happens. I've been told that this inability to think for ones self with respect to observation starts in grade school. They are programmed to accept the teachers statement as true. They need only to find out if they are right. -- Classic Dualist behavior. Beautiful but sad examples of noncritical thinking. >Have they had the words electronic transition state pass >through their brains to their note-taking pen before I see >them - yes. Do they understand? Not really. They may not admit that they know what you mean when you ask about an excited state or they truly do not know. They are waiting for the message from on high as to what to believe and how to believe. Furthermore they are trained passive absorbers and algorithm consumers. What happened to all the students Charlie? When we were in school we would watch the teacher and just wait for him (they were all men then) to slip and then we would pounce. We kept track of every minus sign as it appeared. How come most cubs today don't pounce? I have a hypothesis about the problem. It puts the responsibility for this problem on the current paradigm of education with its predominant lecture format that promotes passivity in students. Co-responsibility falls on the culture of learning which says it is OK to study mostly the night before and exam. Additional co-responsibility lies with the nature of our electronic mass culture. I can't change society but I can change my classroom. Pchem is not a spectator sport any more. >If "teach less - learn more" means develop the beginning of a >chemical intuition as a process in the major courses - then >yes. "teach less - learn more" means to stop covering an enormous amount of material shallowly. Choose fewer topics and explore them deeply. In the process design the learning situation so that the skills required by a scientist to learn independently are fostered and nurtured. These same skills will making those skipped shallow treatments accessible to the student latter when the need arises. It means making conections across courses while developing a topic - a wholistic approach but still within the confines of each discipline - making connections. It means making the student more responsible for the material in the class - letting them explain topics, setting up interesting problems for them to do - providing them with the tools to solve those problems - providing them with more what ifs. >If it means learn what is on the exam I cooked up ten years >ago and have once again changed not the problems but the >numbers - then no. I agree. This might be a good way to test basic skills but not the way to test critical thinking. Now lets turn this around. How about giving them the question and a solution with errors on the exam and let them figure out what is wrong? How about giving them the question and answer and have them explain the logic and chemical principles for each step? How about giving them data and a conclusion and then asking them to use the data to justify the conclusion or if they don't agree to form a new conclusion. You have probably thought of all of these and then some. I'm sure that we could come up with quite a list of possibilities that would challenge the students. But first we must adjust our teaching to reflect this new style. Our fine exams would be an abysmal failure if students were required to do this type of thinking after a semester of just sitting back and diligently taking notes. One of the important keys to successful implimentation of crital thinking in courses is to match challenge with support. Sort of like grants but every one gets something. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 00:59:14 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: new vs. old methods > From: Barry Rowe > > >I've often thought about this. There are many concepts from freshman > >chemistry which I only really understood after I started teaching. > > How true! I think an awful lot of learning is 'readiness'. I think most > 18 & 19 year olds are not 'ready' in maturity, experience, or mathematical > understanding to do much more than memorize algorithms and facts in > beginning Chemistry. They are simply not ready to progress to the > synthesis necessary to get 'the big picture'. > > They are learning about life -- often their first real experience away from > home and on their own. They can set their own hours, their own study > times, and their own habits. They choose their own friends and their own > relationships. They are learning all of this, and there is a lot of 'lab > work' involved. The problem is more serious than this. The extensive reliance on algorithms extends over the entire undergraduate years. It is the resistance to movement away from algorithms in even older students that concerns those studying critical thinking in students. Students will rise to meet the expectations we set. If we set algorithms as our expectations, algorithms is what we will get. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 08:30:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 12 - Short Questions Paper 12 - Short Questions THE COMPUTER CO-OP: TEACHING ORGANIC CHEMISTRY ON A CONFERENCE IN AN INTERDISCIPLINARY MACINTOSH LAB by Carolyn S. Judd and Robert G. Ford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. In section 2.2 you state: > . . . students . . met . . once a week for a 3-hour lecture in the > computer co-op/lab In section 2.3 you state: > The class consisted, generally, of three activities: > an electronic conference . . over the material assigned > a group activity . . involving the study of mechanisms > guided examination . . of the experiments. a. I assume the "lecture" actually consisted of these three activities. Is that correct? b. Did you consider two 1.5 hour sessions or three 1 hour sessions? Don't students get tired in such a long session? c. Were students expected to read an assignment prior to class? Did they read or review the assignment after class? Do you have any information on how they allocated out-of-class time to this course? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. > PacerForum . . supports graphics and sound as well as text. > . . They would . . scroll through the opening messages > from the instructor . . (section 3.4.1) > When they entered the classroom, students were presented with a > short summary of the material assigned for the day (prepared in > advance) . . (section 3.4.2) a. Were the opening messages oral (in sound) or in text? b. How was sound used - by the students? - by the instructor? How much time was devoted to PacerForum sound each week? c. Was the short summary supplied as hard copy or via PacerForum? d. Does PacerForum make the handling of graphics easy? How much graphics did you create for this course? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. (Section 3.4.3) > Each student would be given a slightly different response, > based on the response he or she had provided. > During the course of the class session, the teacher would send > responses; all would see these as they were posted. With sixteen students wasn't this rather confusing? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. (Section 3.4.5) I am not an organic chemist and I probably saw an early version of Beaker. I agree that it is a remarkable program. However, the version that I saw didn't always give the correct answer. (For example - pKs). Is this still true? Doesn't this cause a problem? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. (Section 6.6) a. Was or will this course be taken by chemistry majors? b. > How much material can be cut from a course without discrediting > the course? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. a. Computers can assist in helping to provide a better understanding of the three dimensional character of molecules. Have you considered using molecular modelling software in the course? b. Have you considered using computer simulation of qual organic software like MacSQUALOR or MacQual? c. Have you considered using Stan Smith's organic chemistry software? d. Have you considered using Andrew Montana's award winning software involving organic reaction mechanisms? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 07:55:48 -0600 From: Barry Rowe Subject: Re: new vs. old methods >Students will rise to meet the expectations we set. If we set algorithms >as our expectations, algorithms is what we will get. Very good point! But are we driven by what and how we think learning should be, or what the 'next level' in their learning process expects? I teach high school. I don't think that I am driven by AP exam scores, nor by college entrance expectations, but I would be embarrassed (and probably teaching remedial, beginning, general Science in middle school) if my students always did poorly on college entrance and exams. Yet the drive to teach appropriately is often controlled by what the next level in their education expects. Too often, the college level at least seems to expect algorithms and facts. barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:01:54 -0400 From: binw@CHEMISTRY.UMASS.EDU Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods PLEASE SIGN ME OFF, MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN JAMMED. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:50:23 EDT From: "C. H. Lochmuller" Subject: Re: New Tools vs. Old Methods In-Reply-To: <9307270454.AA05598@umd5.umd.edu>; from "theresa Julia Zielinski" at Jul 27, 93 12:45 am Theresa Zielinski asked what my impression is of when a student has mastered enough to be interdisciplinary: My point is that the desire to have students be "rounded" can degenerate into fooling them into believeing that they are ready to do anything in anyone's field after 9 survey courses. It doesn't work that way. Nor is the interdisciplinary research model that goes " I met Theresa in the faculty commons today and discovered she needs a computer program to display molecules in 3D. Take a copy of that APPLE application we have to her" nine months later ...." AAAh. It's time for the annual report to the Dean on activities. .....Interdisciplinary Scholarly work? Hmmm. Oh, yea! Thresa Zielinski and I are doing work on 3D modeling!" See? On the other hand, I was a BS Chem and BS Math major. Chemistry all the way to the doctorate. A casual conversation three years ago with a Chem. E. studying the use of bacteria at high temperature { <100 C} revealed they were having survival problems. I asked what the media was and was told Tris at pH 7.4. Thinking about the one semester course I had using Ricci's book on pH, I asked what reference they were using at 120C. He said that they adjusted the pH at ambient. I said but Tris has a large enthalpy of ionization and dpH/dT is substantial. Yea, his bugs were being killed in a wrong pH broth by the time he raised the temp 100C. On the other hand, that in part lead to a 27 claim patent using dPH/dT deliberately for me and in an engineering application! I guess that is closerr to interdisciplinary research { NSF funded it!}. I mastered chemistry first. Enough ego stuff. Real point is that good students can and will learn what is not lectured about if we leave them with a view into the real complexity or real chemical systems and treat frictionless pistons, electrons in square wells, the hydrogen atom, "activity or fugacity coeff=1" in their minds as simplifying assumptions made to lead them to the real work of discovery and not what "most people do"? Sort of like knit one-pearl one as in intro to making scarves and sweaters? {weird Duke Prof says!} C. H. Lochmueller Duke University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 14:53:16 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Re: New Tools Vs. Old Methods Jim Holler writes: > We tried computer applications in the 5th edition of Analytical > Chemistry: An Introduction (Skoog, et al., 1990). They were > universally regarded as disposable by reviewers. Should we put them > back in? Not having seen the text, it is hard to say. We have used "Fundamentals of Analytical Chemistry" (Skoog, et al. 3rd through 6th ed.) and haven't paid much attention to the "Introduction.." What was the general nature of the computer applications? Jim Holler quotes Gerald Morine: >> If computer topics are going to be introduced into the chemistry >> curriculum early on, and at all institutions, it has to be included >> in commercial instructional material. This might be through an >> INEXPENSIVE paperback supplement initially, and later by inclusion, >> I think, in analytical textbooks. The last time I taught our Analytical Course, I had a great time exploring MATHCAD and demonstrating for students some of the capabilities on general solutions to polyprotic titration curves, and EDTA titration curves. It was my first experience with MATHCAD, so I didn't get much opportunity to integrate it into the course. It is fascinating how a tool like MATHCAD can change the way you approach and think about some of the more classic equilibrium problems. We noted the publisher's announcement of a MATHCAD supplement to Holler et al. and have eagerly awaited it since. What is the status of the supplement? ----------------------------------------------------------- | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 15:43:00 EST From: "Arthur M. Halpern" Subject: ruminations on teaching pchem Professor Zielinski makes several interesting and, I think, valid points about educational methodologies related to physical chemistry. I have 'taught' that subject for more than a dozen years now and believe that, especially regarding thermodynamics, one never learn_s_ thermo, but one is always learn_ing_ it. Thus a main objective is to reassure students that they are not alone if they feel that even getting a foothold is very hard. I want to introduce them to the beauty and rigor of thermo so that the next time they encounter it or need it in some other context they will feel comfortable about 'picking up' the thread; they will have the background and confidence needed, I hope, to continue the learn_ing_. I also suspect that the traditional lectures, with chalk boards chocked full of nice mathematical expressions and crude pictures, are not very effective to even those who take notes. So what I have been trying for the past several years is to use the case study approach. I discuss solving pchem problems from the point of view of focusing on strategy, much in the same way our colleagues in business (or law) use the case study method. I ask the students to 'help' me attack the problem by rounding up the 'usual suspects' and by eliminating some (conceptual and mathematical possibilities) and identifying others. I try to draw as many students into this group activity as possible. Maybe, just maybe, some of the thinking process becomes revealed to them, not just the mechanical one (what formula do I use?). I strongly advocate using computer-assisted methods of data acquisition _and_ analysis in the pchem lab (even possibly earlier in the curriculum), but I try very hard to avoid (or minimize) the black box syndrome especially in the former. I am pleasantly suprised by the enthusiasm and ease with which (most) students take to the use of RS/1, which is a very powerful statistical scientific spreadsheet. They respond so well, I think, because they find it compelling. It is truly a liberating experience. It allows them to get deeper into the data and the meaning of the analyzed results. I like the way in which such applications encourage the students to consider the "how do we know" issues that implicitly underlie our knowledge and treatment of literature information as well as the lecture concepts that are, after all, based on our experience of measurement and results. I am familiar with P.W. Atkins's Library of Physical Chemistry Software, which was published several years ago. In my experience, students did not take full advantage of that tutorial utility, perhaps such a package with a more contemporary interface and with revised examples, etc., might be more effective now. Does anyone know of such material, e.g., for Windows? Arthur M. Halpern Department of Chemistry Indiana State University Terre Haute, IN 47809 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 10:36:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 13 - Short Questions PAPER 13 - Short Questions Finite Difference Solution of the Diffusion Equation on a Spreadsheet Douglas A. Coe, Montana College of Mineral Science and Technology, Butte, MT 59701 DACOE%MTVMS2.MTECH.EDU ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. a. What sort of undergraduate Physical Chemistry course do you teach? b. Do you teach physical chemistry to engineering as well as chemistry majors? c. Is diffusion and the diffusion equation normally covered in your course? --------------------------------------------------------------------- 2.> The calculations were done on a 486 microcomputer with a math co- > processor using Borland's Quattro Pro 123 spreadsheet (version 4.0). a. To what sort of computing facilities do the students have access? How many students do you have? Are they all familiar with Quattro Pro 123? b. Is the development and use of the program assigned as a regular class assignment? What text do you use and where in the text is diffusion considered? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. You ask some good questions. I'd be interested in your answers to these questions. > QUESTIONS: > 1. Are these sort of exercises of any pedagogical value? > 2. What is the difference between what the student learns if they > have to construct the spreadsheet versus being given a working > spreadsheet of this model? > 3. Does the typical undergraduate chemistry student have enough > knowledge of spreadsheets to build this model. Is this class or > institution dependent? Is exposure to second order partial > differential equations a prerequisite? > 4. What is the relative educational value of exposing students to (1) > the diffusion equation, (2) numerical solutions of differential > equations, (3) an advanced spreadsheet exercise? > 5. Some effort is required by the student to construct the > spreadsheet described in this paper. Is exposing students to > numerical solutions of the diffusion equation on a spreadsheet > worth the effort? Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 10:06:54 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper13 short questions Can we get the figures into INDEX CHEMCONF I realize that it works better to use anonymous FTP to transfer the GIF files, but most of us now have UUDECODE and we need to use it enough to get rid of all the bugs. I would like to get and view your figures this way. While I am sending, I will add another short question. A second derivative is curvature. With your initial conditions the values are always increasing and the curvature is positive everywhere. How hard would it be to set up different initial conditions to get both increasing and decreasing regions? Sincerely Reed Howald ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 16:11:00 EST From: "Arthur M. Halpern" Subject: Paper 13 Question How 'portable' is the exercise to other physical systems or examples? That is, are students given several diffusion coefficients that apply to different situations, or do (can) they calculate D to suit a particular system? Arthur M. Halpern Department of Chemistry Indiana State University Terre Haute, Indiana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 10:39:09 -0400 From: JOHN WOOLCOCK Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Short Questions - Paper 14 Short Questions and Comments for Paper 14: 1. To make the simulation seem more realistic did you consider having the students record in lab notebooks the steps they used to run the program through the various experiments, spectra and data analysis? This would help the those students that are not strong visual learners. 2. I found that when I used the program for the first time and tried to run a spectrum first, I got a system error (#25) and the application quit. If I went back and ran an experiment first and it plotted a graph for one run, I could then do all the spectra I wanted. Then, when I quit the application and came back I could then run a spectrum first. Why? Is the preference file in the System Folder being created only when an experiment is run? 3. Why can't (or didn't you want) the spectra to be saved by the students? 4. It would be helpful if the program had a more detailed explanation screen that would briefly review the features of the program described in Appendix 1. This could also be expanded to include hints on what to do in the exercise and create a "guided inquiry" rather than "open inquiry" exercise out of it which may be less frustrating for the students the first time they work through it. 5. I have also been able to use JCE: Software's "Grafit" to plot the data from saved files. It is substantially cheaper than the commercial graphing packages but has fewer bells and whistles. Grafit's import feature always expects delimited text files to have column headings. It therefore puts the first row of data into the column headings which are not plotted. Since in Chemulate this point is (0, 0) this is not a big problem, except when you need to get initial rates. 6. For me an experiment simulation is in all senses of the phrase: "the next best thing". They are better than nothing at all and work best as an introduction to a real experiment. Students should be forced to make their own solutions, handle troublesome equipment, etc. Making an experiment too idealized will not do this. I would most likely use Chemulate as an in-class activity as you have described or a pre or post lab assignment. With some fine tuning it would even be worth distributing Chemulate commercially or through JCE: Software. Particularly if the method that allows instructors to set up new exercises is not too difficult. John C. Woolcock Chemistry Department Indiana University of PA Indiana, PA 15705 Internet: WOOLCOCK@grove.iup.edu Bitnet: WOOLCOCK@IUP ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 10:59:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 14 - Short Questions Paper 14 - Short Questions Chemulate! A Simulator of UV/Visible Kinetics Experiments for the Macintosh by Richard S. Moog ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Chemulate would appear to be an interesting and useful application of the computer in helping to teach kinetics. Unfortunately, I do not have ready access to the Macintosh hardware. For this reason it is difficult to visualize exactly what your program is like. In your paper (Section II-B) you state: > Their assignment was to determine which of three possible mechanisms > could apply to their system (that is, determine the rate law and > which of the three mechanisms could provide that law), and to > determine the Arrhenius constant and the activation energy for the > constant k. a. I wonder if you can provide an ASCII file containing a specific example, i.e. identify the reaction and list three mechanisms. b. Were the students expected to deduce the rate expression for each of the mechanisms? The examples you cited in Appendix 2-B are rather complex, paricularly for an undergraduate just beginning to study kinetics. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. In the oxidation of ethanol example (Appendix 2-B) you indicate the rate depends upon the concentrations of HCrO4-, H+ and EtOH. HCrO4- is in equilibrium with CrO4= and Cr2O7=. Do the students consider these equilibria? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. In the reduction of hexacyano iron(III) by ascorbic acid (Appendix 2-B) there are three rate constants (as you indicate). Were the students expected to determine the Arrhenius parameters and activation energies for each rate constant? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. In Section 2-F you mention the determination of the initial rate of reaction from the initial slope. How accurate were the rate constants, and energies of activation which the students obtained from the data? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. Generally, a suitable plot of the integrated form of the rate equation provides more accurate rate constants than do initial rates. Did students use integrated forms of the rate equation? For example, the rate of oxidation of ethanol is pseudo first order in ethanol under appropriate conditions (and pseudo second order in HCrO4- under other conditions). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 12:11:00 EST From: "DR. LISA KINTNER CHEMISTRY DEPARTMENT, UPJ, JOHNSTOWN PA" Subject: Methods of Learning -- General Discussion The discussion under the heading of "New Tools Vs Old Methods" has generated a lot of very provocative discussion. I for one have found myself thinking a lot about my own experiences as a freshman and sophomore chem major at a large university and trying to relate them once again to those of my own students, most of whom are bio majors headed for careers in the health professions (at a small branch campus). The same questions keep coming back: 1) what are my goals? 2) what should students "learn" in general chemistry? 3) How can I help them on the path to becoming "thinking scientists and non-scientists"? Theresa Zielinski (Roszieli@uvbvms.cc.buffalo.edu) has given us some interesting insight -- and a few good references. >How come most cubs today don't pounce? > >I have a hypothesis about the problem. It puts the >responsibility for this problem on the current paradigm of >education with its predominant lecture format that promotes >passivity in students. Co-responsibility falls on the culture >of learning which says it is OK to study mostly the night >before and exam. Additional co-responsibility lies with the >nature of our electronic mass culture. Barry Rowe (browe@ncsa.uiuc.edu) made some helpful observations about "most 18- and 19-year-olds." > They are learning about life -- often their first real experience >away from home and on their own. They can set their own hours, >their own study times, and their own habits. They choose their own >friends and their own relationships. They are learning all of this, >and there is a lot of 'lab work' involved. To which Theresa replied: >The problem is more serious than this. The extensive reliance on >algorithms extends over the entire undergraduate years. It is the >resistance to movement away from algorithms in even older >students that concerns those studying critical thinking in students. And in return, Barry commented: >>Students will rise to meet the expectations we set. If we set >>algorithms as our expectations, algorithms is what we will get. >Very good point! But are we driven by what and how we think >learning should be, or what the 'next level' in their learning process >expects? > >I teach high school. I don't think that I am driven by AP exam >scores, nor by college entrance expectations, but I would be >embarrassed (and probably teaching remedial, beginning, general >Science in middle school) if my students always did poorly on >college entrance and exams. Yet the drive to teach appropriately is >often controlled by what the next level in their education expects. >Too often, the college level at least seems to expect algorithms and >facts. I've been a passive "lurker" through most of the conference. Now I feel compelled to add my own two-bits. Thanks Barry for reminding us that at age 18 and 19 our students are perhaps just "learning about life". Maybe that explains in part why I feel that they want just the answer, the RIGHT answer and on a silver platter. However, I distinctly remember my high school AP US History teacher who insisted that we look for much more than JUST THE ANSWER. Her goal was to make us think like historians. Non of us liked the hard work; but she had a point and I tell my general chemistry students about her when they come to my office wondering why they didn't do any better when they had studied so hard for the exam. I think that I only had 2 or 3 professors in college who insisted that we think like scientists (and that was only in my junior and senior year!). I think that it's crucial that we consider the emotional and intellectual development of our students when we set our goals; however, this is an explanation, not an excuse. I hope that this on-going discussion has pointed out that many of us (even those of us who teach general chemistry) expect algorithms and facts. How do we get that message out? My greatest challenge is to overcome the students expectation that I will always give them the RIGHT answer! Lisa Kintner Department of Chemistry University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown Johnstown, PA KINTNER@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 12:13:00 EST From: "DR. LISA KINTNER CHEMISTRY DEPARTMENT, UPJ, JOHNSTOWN PA" Subject: New Tools Vs Old Methods -- More Discussion As I read through last weekend's discussion under the thread "New Tools Vs. Old Methods", I found myself drifting in a surprising direction. Harry Pence commented that >current students are much more experienced in obtaining knowledge >by visual means than in any other way. This is their preferred >method of learning. . . .we should use visualization much more in >our courses. . . .we should focus more on teaching students how to >observe, that is, help them to sharpen the skills they already have. >. . .we can't give up on reading and listening, but we must >understand that we're fighting an uphill battle, and special efforts >and techniques will be necessary. I found my thoughts shifting from my chemistry students to my 13-year-old son who thinks he want to be an architect. Like many 13-year-olds, he watches MTV, plays video games and uses my computer to write his research papers. He reads books because he "has" to. If he could choose his reading material he'd pick Sports Illustrated and Modern Drummer and adventure/sci fi. Several weeks ago we spent the day riding roller coasters at an amusement park in Pittsburgh. Now he wants to learn all that he can about roller coasters; he wants to design the ultimate one himself. Roller coasters may be just another passing fancy but the current interest has provided a valuable learning experience -- on many levels. We spent an afternoon on campus at the library using the on-line catalogue and CD ROM data base. He found several books and a few magazine/journal articles. The next step: "play" with the CAD programs in the Engineering and Design labs to amplify his design (he's already been using templates and graph paper). He has caught on to modern technology with lightning speed. Shifting back to general chemistry . . .wonder if I could refine this experiential "model" and apply it to the general chemistry labs or a multidisciplinary advanced synthesis and structure lab? The idea is neither new, nor unique; conference participants have reported models that are further along in development. Focussing briefly on my own child and the world in which he lives really brought home the strong visual and technical (high tech) orientation of my/our students. Lisa Kintner Department of Chemistry University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown Johnstown, PA KINTNER@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1993 13:14:49 -0400 From: HARRY PENCE Subject: Re: New Tools vs. Old Methods I loved the story of the 13 year old boy who has become interested in science because he's fascinated by roller coasters. I think the important criteria is not just how much material we cover, but how much we interest our students in the subject. That doesn't mean we have to dress up like Bobo the Clown or water down the material. It does mean that we, as experts (or the closest thing available to experts) have to *show* them how our field relates to things that they, the students, are likely to be interested in. The new generation of students have been bombarded all their lives by TV, movies, etc., and all of these powerful tools have also been used to try to attract them (usually to buy a product, etc.). As a result, we have a harder job convincing them. It isn't impossible, we just have to work a little harder and do things a little differently. Don't give up on reading and listening as means of communication, but also make use of visual methods that our students are more accustomed to. In essence, we teachers are like the fisherperson who discovers that the fish are not biting on worms. We can either change the bait we use, or sit around and complain about the fact that fishing isn't what it used to be. The latter activity is fairly common among those who fish, but it doesn't put anything in the creel at the end of the day ;-) . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 09:18:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 11 questions Carl Snyder asks: > 1. Are there better carrots to use than extra credit to induce > students to learn and use electronic communication? Extra credit does seem to be a slightly "artificial" way to encourage students. One might ask why WE use e-mail and electronic communication, without being given extra credit by our employers. One reason is that some information is available electronically that is available in no other way. Another is that it allows one to ask questions, share ideas, and work on projects with our collegues in other departments and at other locations more conveniently. Around here I see quite a bit of e-mail traffic across campus and even within the department, when the message clearly could have been delivered in person. But we have the advantage over the students of having worked with e-mail long enough that it becomes routine - even second nature. With practice, it really is easier than walking down the hall to slip a note under someone's door. Our department has recenty begun to distribute most routine notices by e-mail, rather than by paper mail. If you're not connected, you're really "out of it". Hopefully the need for the carrot will eventually go away as more and more students are exposed to computers and e-mail in elementary and high school. There are quite a few projects at the local, national, and international level that involve grade-school kids in cooperative projects on-line: data gathering and sharing, international e-mail pen-pals, that sort of thing. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 07:18:06 -0700 From: Barbara Sawrey Subject: Paper 11 Questions Carl Snyder asks: > 1. Are there better carrots to use than extra credit to induce > students to learn and use electronic communication? Once my students have learned to use e-mail they say the biggest factor in their continuing to send e-mail to me is the time factor. They can send e-mail anytime -- no waiting for office hours. Most of the mail I get is sent between 8PM and 4AM, which is when students are studying. I can easily log onto the computer during that time and answer them, but I wouldn't dream of scheduling office hours in the middle of the night. That made me think about why I use e-mail to communicate with the person in the office next door to me as well as with those around the world. And one big reason for me is that it is not as disruptive as a phone call. I can send mail on my own schedule, don't need all that phone chitchat (Hi. How are you? How's your summer been?), and can have the same conversation with several people at a time. It's just plain more efficient in many cases. I think students will see many of the same benefits soon after they get involved in e-mail, but the start can be rocky for some. So what I do, once I get the students' written permission to post grades by a portion of their SSN, is post their quiz and exam scores in a computer file. It is the fastest way for them to find out how they did on an exam since it could be as much as a week before they see their TA in discussion section and can see the actual test. As incentive it works pretty well. Barbara Sawrey bsawrey@ucsd.edu UC San Diego ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 11:43:00 EDT From: "Peter Gold, Penn State U. (814) 865-7694" Subject: Re: Paper 11 Questions In-Reply-To: bas%chem.UCSD.EDU AT SDSC.BITNET -- Mon, 2 Aug 1993 07:18:06 -0700 Re inducing students to use e-mail: Our University Testing Service (the office that machine-grades the machine- graded exams here) will begin this fall to offer instructors the option of sending students via e-mail their exam grades together with optional messages from the instructor; the messages can be grade dependent or dependent on the individual student's performance on selected parts of the exam. I exepct that this will provide incentive for more students to learn to use our campus e-mail system; because it is IBM-mainframe-based, it is fairly user-hostile and intimidating and there is a high activation barrier to using it. One reason that so many faculty use it routinely is, as several of you have pointed out, it is so convenient for them. To send an e-mail message I need only turn 180 degrees in my desk chair. Students here, and, I'm sure, at many other places, must go to a computer lab where they may have to wait for a unit to be free which makes it far less convenient for them. An incentive for some students comes when they realize they can communicate with friends at other schools and/or with their families. I know from direct experience that requests for money from one's children at college come more readily by e-mail than by letter or phone. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 10:40:10 EST From: Larry Rosenhein Subject: e-mail in teaching Last year I had what I thought was the intriguing idea of making an e- mail-type function available to students in a regular general chemistry course. They would be able to post messages and also read all the messages and replies. I had pleasant visions of students running to the microlabs to pose questions about homework problems they were stuck on, or to see if anyone had replied to their problem, or to show off how much they knew by answering other students' queries. The instructor would be able to monitor and contribute also. Even though I was not teaching this course at the time, I wanted to see if it worked, so I set it up with the computer center, including arrangements for each student to get a user id and instructions to be handed out in the lecture. It was not e-mail itself, but another freeware program called something like "Notice." But nothing happened, as I could tell from monitoring the program. I'm not sure if this was just not interesting to the students, or to the instructors (who I don't think sold it very hard). This fall I _am_ teaching this course and will give it one more try. I see a lot of potential here. Besides providing another outlet for chewing on the material, creating a sense of community, and developing those all-important communication skills, this activity might simply add to the interest of being in the course itself. One other thing that e-mail could be used for that I don't think was mentioned is posting old exams from the course. This could both save work (and remove the problem of having exams stolen from the library), and provide the incentive for students to get on the system in the first place. Larry Rosenhein Indiana State University/Terre Haute CHROSEN@SCIFAC.INDSTATE.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 11:51:40 -0400 From: "CARL H. SNYDER, CHEMISTRY; CSNYDER@UMIAMI" Subject: Paper 11: Replies to short questions Replies to short questions for Paper11: *********************************************************** >Questions for Carl H. Snyder, Paper 11 >"Applications of Networked Computers and Electronic Mail in a Chemistry >Course for nonScience Students" >1. Was the question of security brought up with respect to students >having access to the Department LAN? If so, how did you resolve the >situation? > >2. I presume that similar menu progrmas could be used in a Windows >or Mac environment. 1. Security is maintained pricipally by the use of passwords (a different one for each class using the lan) and by the use of read-only attributes for some critical files. Naturally any student who has a class password can change the attribute and wreak havoc. I think the most effective security measure we used was simply to back up all the files we put onto the lan. In practice, we had no security problems. If we had, all we could have done would be to replace the damaged or erased files. 2. I guess so. I'm fond of DOS and did all the work in DOS. I see no reason why the files can't be translated to Windows or the Mac. *********************************************************** >1. From the Syllabus (PAPER11SYL.TXT) I gather that this scheme was used > in the second half of a two semester sequence. Was course evaluation > done both semesters? Were there any differences in course evaluations > or specific comments which might provide some indication of the > success of your scheme? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- This was indeed run during the second semester of a two semester sequence. We haven't yet tried it in the first semester. One reason is that the second semester class is much smaller than the first. We thought it best to carry out our trial run with the smaller class. With the trial run completed, we will repeat it with the first semester course this fall. As I think I noted in the paper, we didn't do an evaluation. Now that we think we know what we are doing in the technical area, we'll run it with the first and second (again) semester courses and get student evaluations. >2. In section 4.1 you mention "Review Questions" using Diploma IV. > a. Can you show us a set of questions with comments for one chapter? > b. Can you tell us a little more about Diploma IV? What unique > features does the package have which made you decide to use it > rather than a simple word processor? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- a. and b. One feature of Diploma IV that I like very much allows the user to scramble the answers to a set of multiple choice questions for the preparation of multiple forms, while keeping the sequence of questions unchanged. In doing this, the program provides a separate answer sheet for each form, showing the newly correct letter for the set of answers to each question. This makes it very easy for me to write one full examination on a word processor and prepare as many different forms as I wish, with a correct answer sheet for each. Moreover, I can add comments to each answer of the multiple choice set I used last year and use that old test as a computer review for the students. In essence, then, I do use a word processor to prepare the examination, then follow up with a conversion to multiple forms and/or a review program with the aid of Diploma IV. Since the output of Diploma IV is useful only with the program itself, I didn't include any of the outputs with the symposium paper. However, I can translate one of the reviews into ASCII and send it to anyone who would like a copy. Let me know if you would like to have one. I'll be happy to e-mail one to you. >3. Am I correct in assuming that each dialog in PAPER11HWK.TXT was > between A student and you? Would there be some advantage to > making this dialog available to ALL students (protecting the > anonymity of the student)? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- You are right. I viewed the communications as personal, just one step removed from a face-to-face conference. Actually, I hadn't thought of making these communications available to all students. My only reservation would be that this might discourage some students who might not want the entire class to read what they are writing to me, for whatever reasons. It's worth a try, though. I think I'll ask students to code each message to me to indicate whether it's stricly private or might be used for the entire class, with anonymity insured. >4. What do you consider to be the advantages and disadvantages of > your scheme > a. from the perspective of the student? > b. from the perspective of the instructor? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting question. a. I think the students enjoyed and benefitted from the review questions. The reviews gave them an idea of what to expect on the examinations. I used to place the previous year's examinations on reserve in the library and allow students to copy them. Now they've got to get their hands onto a keyboard to get access to the old exams. That's an advance right there. I had hoped to get more contact with individual students with the freedom that e-mail allows, but there was no delge of individual questions or comments. That disappoints me. Maybe it will be different with the fall semester gruop. b. The greatest advantage to me was that I had fun with something new and presumably useful. It was different and stimulating to correspond (for the first time) with students by e-mail, and to grade and return extra credit work by e-mail. Intellectual stimulation was certainly my greatest benefit. >5. Are there any plans to use this scheme with chemistry majors? > If so in which course or courses? If not, why not? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd like to see it used in freshman chemistry, but that's an enormous course -- 700 or so students, I think -- and we're awfully short-handed right now. My colleagues who teach the freshman majors have their hands full just doing what they've been doing routinely for many years. I doubt they have the time or inclination to try something new right now, at least not until I make it very appealing to them through use in the nonmajors course. Carl H. Snyder Internet: CSNYDER@umiami.IR.Miami.EDU Chemistry Department Bitnet: CSNYDER@umiami University of Miami Phone: (305)-284-2174 Coral Gables, FL 33124 FAX: (305)-285-4571 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 10:56:55 EDT From: "R. T. Wilson" Subject: Paper 11 Discussion Carl Snyder's paper raises interesting questions. Anyone teaching chemistry to liberal arts students is basically placed in the roll of a technological missionary working among the heathen. What kind of baubles and trinkets can we pass out to keep them happy and satisfied? After all, there are more of them than there are of us, so we need to proceed cautiously lest they turn hostile. Carl asks: Subject: Discussion of Paper 11 It is now 11:35 AM on Monday August 2. It is time to begin discussion of Paper 11. Where are the author's answers to the Short Questions? Where is everyone? Don Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 14:33:28 EDT From: "C. H. Lochmuller" Subject: Re: Paper 11 Baubles for Liberal Arts Students In-Reply-To: <9308021815.AA22674@umd5.umd.edu>; from "R. T. Wilson" at Aug 2, 93 10:56 am What kind of baubles can one offer? IF the students are truly Liberal Arts and not just passing time in college until they can do what they planned in high school., I doubt that bribes are necessary. On the other hand, they may not react as desired if one leaps into the world of quantum mechanics as a starting topic. It is not necessary to view teaching good Arts majors as unwilling to listen. It certainly helps to know enough about chemistry before 1970 to show them the course of intelectual development that is now presented as shorthand format glimpses and called intro chemistry. It is NOT necessary to wax environmental, to dwell only on chemotaxonomy as used by archeologists, to speak ony of the last age of chemistry which ended with Lavoisier { everything since is physics?} as some claim. It is necessary to be inventive. They often will listen to structure lectures if you first let them speculate why two rubber items - a length of surgical latex and the gutta percha of art erasers are chemically identical in that both are polyisoprene. Yet one stretches and the other won't. I suppose that what needs to be thought about is what do we hope to leave Arts majors/students with when the course is over? Our very successful 20+ year run of Chemistry for Executives is certainly a product of such thought. Want to lose a student fat? Try the Treasurer of Dupont if you can't teach to his perceived needs from a course. Or the VP for data Processing from Phillips. Both undergrad liberal arts majors. No prior chemistry. Same pedagogical problem. C. H. Lochmuller Duke University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 15:17:13 -0400 From: "Aline (Lindy) Harrison" Subject: Paper #11 e-mail and class Re: e-mail and baubles one can offer....from my point of view, freshman course is too early to enter e-mail. I am offering it in a senior capstone course but as a part of Internet acquisition of library info and I will also set up a notes system in which I will give assignments which they can pick up only in e-mail notes system....thus forcing them into it. Again, my point of view....they may be interested or passing time in college but pressures are to be practical so I will set the students up that their e-mail participation is necessary to get what they need...for a grade as usually seems to be the definition of "necessary". Lindy Harrison, York College of PA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 15:58:26 -0400 From: "CARL H. SNYDER, CHEMISTRY; CSNYDER@UMIAMI" Subject: Re: e-mail in teaching Larry Rosenhein writes: > Last year I had what I thought was the intriguing idea of making >an e- mail-type function available to students in a regular general >chemistry course. They would be able to post messages and also read >all the messages and replies. I had pleasant visions of students >running to the microlabs to pose questions about homework problems >they were stuck on, or to see if anyone had replied to their problem, >or to show off how much they knew by answering other students' >queries. The instructor would be able to monitor and contribute (omitted material) > But nothing happened, as I could tell from >monitoring the program. I'm not sure if this was just not >interesting to the students, or to the instructors (who I don't think >sold it very hard). This fall I _am_ teaching this course and will >give it one more try. I had a similar experience with e-mail in a nonmajors class. See Paper 11 of the ChemConference. (omitted material) > One other thing that e-mail could be used for that I don't think >was mentioned is posting old exams from the course. This could >both save work (and remove the problem of having exams stolen from >the library), and provide the incentive for students to get on the >system in the first place. In Paper 11 and in my response to the short questions I describe my use of old examinations as a foundation for a computer review of course material. I might add here that in an introductory organic couse I taught this summer I did post old examinations on our departmental lan, with great success. Carl H. Snyder Internet: CSNYDER@umiami.IR.Miami.EDU Chemistry Department Bitnet: CSNYDER@umiami University of Miami Phone: (305)-284-2174 Coral Gables, FL 33124 FAX: (305)-285-4571 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 17:01:20 -0500 Reply-To: Carolyn Sweeney Judd From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Paper #11 e-mail In-Reply-To: <9308021956.AA29237@umd5.umd.edu> Dear Lindy Harrison, York College of PA: Can you give a brief outline of using Internet for acquisition of library information? Perhaps a syllabus? I am very interested in helping my students develop this skill. On Mon, 2 Aug 1993, Aline (Lindy) Harrison wrote: > Re: e-mail and baubles one can offer....from my point of view, freshman course > is too early to enter e-mail. I am offering it in a senior capstone course but > as a part of Internet acquisition of library info and I will also set up a Thank you. Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 18:11:34 -0400 From: "James E. Van Verth" Subject: Re: e-mail in teaching Following a the practice of the people at Case Western, I have been posting solutions to current exams on the network server. The consist of scanned copies of hand-marked tests, and thus have to be stored as paint files. Theyare low resolution to save space, and are jagged, but readable. Students clamor for them if I don't post them in a timely fashion. They like it because they can each print their own copy. It also eliminates the problem of the answers being stolen from the bulletin board. James E. Van Verth Department of Chemistry VANVERTH@CANISIUS.BITNET Canisius College, Buffalo, NY 14208 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 19:59:18 -0400 From: "CARL H. SNYDER, CHEMISTRY; CSNYDER@UMIAMI" Subject: Paper 11: Responses, Part I Response to comments on Paper 11: Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland writes: >Carl Snyder asks: >> 1. Are there better carrots to use than extra credit to induce >> students to learn and use electronic communication? > >Extra credit does seem to be a slightly "artificial" way >to encourage students. One might ask why WE use e-mail and >electronic communication, without being given extra credit >by our employers. One reason is that some information is ..... >Hopefully the need for the carrot will eventually go away as more >and more students are exposed to computers and e-mail in >elementary and high school. There are quite a few projects at the >local, national, and international level that involve grade-school >kids in cooperative projects on-line: data gathering and sharing, >international e-mail pen-pals, that sort of thing. True enough. Extra credit is not only artificial, but a bribe. I dislike using it to entice students into e-maii. And sure, the need for the carrot will eventually disappear as students in elementary grades and high school work their way into college. But what are we to do in the meantime? As I see it, we need either to make e-mail compelling fun (the carrot) or a requirement for a good grade (the stick) until students who have grown up academically on e-mail get into our courses. I welcome any ideas for carrots. I'd like to avoid the sticks if possible. Barbara Sawrey bsawrey@ucsd.edu UC San Diego writes: > Carl Snyder asks: > > 1. Are there better carrots to use than extra credit to induce > > students to learn and use electronic communication? > >Once my students have learned to use e-mail they say the biggest >factor in their continuing to send e-mail to me is the time factor. >They can send e-mail anytime -- no waiting for office hours. Most of >the mail I get is sent between 8PM and 4AM, which is when students >are studying. I can easily log onto the computer during that time and >answer them, but I wouldn't dream of scheduling office hours in the >middle of the night. That's the principal reason I want to introduce e-mail: to increase the effecitveness and efficiency of my communications with my students. I see it as a supplement to the office visit, a quick and easy way for a student to ask a simple question at any time and get a rapid response. But my students didn't see it that way, at least not in this limited test. Then again, maybe very few had simple questions. >but the start can be rocky for some. So what I do, once I get the >students' written permission to post grades by a portion of their SSN, >is post their quiz and exam scores in a computer file. It is the fastest >way for them to find out how they did on an exam since it could be >as much as a week before they see their TA in discussion section and >can see the actual test. As incentive it works pretty well. I don't think it would work for me. With multiple choice tests and a good testing and grading center, I can get not only printed results, but a nice statistical analysis as well into student hands the period after the examination. Giving that up just to get students to use e-mail seems to me to be a net loss. "Peter Gold, Penn State U. (814) 865-7694" writes: >Our University Testing Service (the office that machine-grades the machine- >graded exams here) will begin this fall to offer instructors the option of >sending students via e-mail their exam grades together with optional >messages from the instructor; the messages can be grade dependent or >dependent on the individual student's performance on selected parts of the >exam. I exepct that this will provide incentive for more students to learn >to use our campus e-mail system; because it is IBM-mainframe-based, it is >fairly user-hostile and intimidating and there is a high activation barrier >to using it. If we had that facility I'd try it, but we don't. As an aside, our e-mail runs off a VAX/VMS and is very easy to use. ................. >only turn 180 degrees in my desk chair. Students here, and, I'm sure, at >many other places, must go to a computer lab where they may have to wait for >a unit to be free which makes it far less convenient for them. We have work stations scattered all over campus, and a nice group of them in our chemistry department. I don't think waiting time is a factor for us. >An incentive for some students comes when they realize they can communicate >with friends at other schools and/or with their families. I know from >direct experience that requests for money from one's children at college >come more readily by e-mail than by letter or phone. Now there's an interesting observation. My one student who did use e-mail extensively (see below) was very, very active in using it to communicate with friends at other universities. Terrell Wilson Virginia Military Institute Lexington, Virginia 24450 e-mail: fchwilson%faculty%vmi@ist.vmi.edu writes: >Carl Snyder's paper raises interesting questions. Anyone teaching chemistry >to liberal arts students is basically placed in the roll of a technological >missionary working among the heathen. What kind of baubles and trinkets can >we pass out to keep them happy and satisfied? After all, there are more of >them than there are of us, so we need to proceed cautiously lest they turn >hostile. Carl asks: >He also says: >Carl, I think I would have a talk with that student. What distinguishes him >from the other 27? Do you have Meyers-Briggs scores of your students >available? Our liberal arts students are not like us, and that is one of the >hardest things for science teachers to understand. Students will use Not only don't I have Meyers-Briggs scores, I don't have the slightest idea what they are. But I can tell you that *she* is distinguished from *her* classmates in that *she* was unquestionably the top student in the class. When I asked her, incidentally, she told me that she had not used e-mail before coming into this course. I regret now that we didn't go into the matter more deeply. Another point: I don't agree that our liberal arts students are not like us, at least in things that matter. Sometimes I do think that as an organic chemist I'm further from a theretical physical chemist, for example, that from a logic major. But that, too, is another matter. > Unless I missed it, you didn't mention how much of the instructional >time in the course was devoted to use of e-mail. If that is one of your >objectives, it may be necessary to devote more time to it. Also, I believe you > made a tactical error in passing out key-word list hardcopies before the tests >when they were already available by e-mail. Students are efficiency experts. >They won't waste time getting them by e-mail if they know you're going to pass >them out anyway. Try distributing something they need by e-mail only. Carl, >I would also like to know how that one unique student compared with the others >when the final grades were passed out. You've got me there. I devoted just one period to e-mail instructions. But as you can see from the appendices I did provide plenty of written instruction. Maybe more time in personal instruction would be beneficial. As for the hard copies, that was an attempt to minimize the stick. I just don't like the idea of making e-mail virtually mandatory. I'll have to think more about that. And, again, she was the top student. Maybe, as the data on the extra credit work suggests, the better students catch on quickly, the poorer students don't. Or is that too facile an explanation? C. H. Lochmuller Duke University writes: >What kind of baubles can one offer? (omitted material) >I suppose that what needs to be thought about is what do we hope to leave >Arts majors/students with when the course is over? Our very successful 20+ >year run of Chemistry for Executives is certainly a product of such thought. >Want to lose a student fat? Try the Treasurer of Dupont if you can't teach >to his perceived needs from a course. Or the VP for data Processing from >Phillips. Both undergrad liberal arts majors. No prior chemistry. Same >pedagogical problem. These comments, including the material I have omitted, contain some interesting points that deserve discussion. But my concern in the paper is focussed more sharply on getting students to use e-mail than on broader pedagogical problems encountered in dealing with nonscience students. This is a discussion that could well be continued in another forum. Lindy Harrison, York College of PA writes: >Re: e-mail and baubles one can offer....from my point of view, freshman course >is too early to enter e-mail. I am offering it in a senior capstone course but >as a part of Internet acquisition of library info and I will also set up a I *hope* you are wrong. It seems to me that freshman in college ought to have the skills to use e-mail in its current form. If they don't have even those skills I have to ask myself whether they have the skills to learn chemistry. But then *motivation* is another matter. I think one of our tasks as teachers is to provide motivation to those students who need it. But that, too, is another discussion. Carl H. Snyder Internet: CSNYDER@umiami.IR.Miami.EDU Chemistry Department Bitnet: CSNYDER@umiami University of Miami Phone: (305)-284-2174 Coral Gables, FL 33124 FAX: (305)-285-4571 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 20:43:31 CDT From: Barry Rowe Subject: Re: Paper #11 e-mail and class I apologize if this arrives late, but the NCSA email server is not working correctly and I guess some of the mail lays around for several days before being sent. In response to Linday Harrison . . . What are you going to do with students who are used to email access in high school and demand it in college? We have an ISDN line and I expect most high schools to have it in 5 years. barry [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] Barry E. Rowe browe@ncsa.uiuc.edu NCSA ChemViz group 240 CAB, 152 E. Springfield Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 21:48:16 -0400 From: HARRY PENCE Subject: Using e-mail in class Last semester I introduced electronic communications in my senior seminar class for the first time. My main focus was teaching them to use telenet to access Chem Abstracts, but I also asked each student to sign on to a chemistry-related bulletin board and write a one-page report on one of the threads on that bulletin board. All of the 15 students in the course ultimately completed the assignment, but I had to work very hard to convince some of them. (This was a pass-fail course, and the bulletin board assignment was such a small part of the course that it was difficult to convince anyone that his or her chances of failing the course would increase significantly in this particular assignment was not completed. Part of the problem may have been that I could only spend one lecture on this topic, so I left them largely on their own. I did make it clear, however, that anyone who was having trouble could see me for help, and several students did do this. Only one student clearly became a dedicated e-mail user. Some of the problems which must be overcome the next time I do this include: (a) some of the bulletin boards are either no longer in existence or else are not very active, (b) students felt that the discussions of some of the bulletin boards were not related to their activities, and (c) students felt that it was unlikely that they would have access to e-mail after they graduated. Based on this experience, it may be easier to start e-mail training with sophomores or even earlier. Lest you think I regret the experiment, I certainly plan to try again the next time I teach senior seminar. This was just an exploratory exercise. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Harry E. Pence BITNET: PENCEHE@SNYONEVA | | Professor of Chemistry PHONE: 607-436-3179 | | SUNY Oneonta FAX: 607-436-2107 | | Oneonta, NY 13820 | ____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 22:20:35 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper 11 discussion, carrots Paper 11 discussion >are there better carrots? >one reason that so many faculty use it . . . it is so convenient >but nothing happened. >I'd like to see it used in freshman chemistry, but that;s an enormous course -- 700 or so students . . . -- and we're awfully short handed >O'Haver's list >The key to this work is the use of a flexible menu program that allows students easy access . . . Extra credit is a good carrot to get students to use e-mail, but a more effective one is providing the material they need to review for the exam. Rosenhein suggests posting old exams from the course. With modern word processing this will be easy and effective. I envision such large question banks a few years from now that there will be no problem with providing two or three practice exams to each student on every topic we teach. Is the use of e-mail one of the topics we need to teach in chemistry. A month ago I would have said NO! The discussion of paper 9 has changed my mind. If computers are really changing the way we operate as chemists and teachers we owe it to our current students to demonstrate even embryonic uses as early in their education as possible. I see no problem in using e-mail with 700 student classes. Snyder's data indicate the we can anticipate up to 5 communications per student. I had 120 e-mail messages one day last week when I was back from a backpack trip, but that was doable. 3500 messages over 10 weeks is only 70 per day. I would not deal with them all personally, but a TA could sort through them all regularly. At Montana State University all students automatically get a computer account on our VAX system. I like the concept of distributing scores on examinations along with instructor comments to all students by e-mail, and apparently that is all handled by machines. But we will not get 100% yields. Most conference participants have yet to send a message to "CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU". It is hard to do, and we (like our students) don't think it is essential. We as teachers must show that we use computers AND make them easier to use. The main menu in paper 15 provides the students e-mail instructions and access. This is an 8 item menu. Selections are made with arrow keys plus return or with a single letter keystroke. I am frustrated with menus that require mice, but we can and should provide menu eccess to computer information and control in a standard way. This is the one item I notice missing from O'Haver's list: Using standard menus. Here is my revision of his list: 1. Using standard menus 2. Files and file types 3. Text editors through desktop publishing 4. Calculators, spreadsheets, and equation solvers 5. Interpreters, compilers, and programming languages 6. Serial and parallel communication 7. Interfacing 8. Calibration 9. Cut, copy and paste 10. Computer graphics 11. Networks, clients, servers and peers 12. Telecommunication and Internet tools Thus use of standard menus is first, because it is the key to easy access to the details one needs on the others. Note that at 12 item menu like this does not allow selection by a single letter (I is used twice and C four times). I propose using two letter key strokes for standard menu choices, and providing the information one needs for a particular job on the computer no further than two menus away. We shouldn't need to be drilled in how to use UUDECODE. we should be taught where to find the file and where to get the instructions. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 06:51:00 EDT From: "Thomas C. OHAVER" Subject: Paper 11: Posting old exams > One other thing that e-mail could be used for that I don't think > was mentioned is posting old exams from the course. For the last three years I have been posting old exams for my courses in a directory on the departmental LAN fileserver. The advantages over e-mail distribution are two-fold: first, the documents retain the formatting, formulae, subscripts, structures, graphics, etc.; and second, it is much easier to access and print them. All the students have to do is to go to the student workstation room in our building, double-click on the course directory, and then double-click on the exam they want to see. To print a copy, they simply select Print from the File menu. The DISadvantage of fileserver distribution is that it is available only from the departmental LAN, which can not be accessed from outside the department or the campus (for reasons having to do with software licenses). In fact, one reason for posting the old exams in this way was to give them a good reason to use our student workstation room more regularly - or to learn where it is if they have not discovered it yet. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 07:53:33 -0400 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 11: Posting old exams What are the disadvantages of using E-mail to communicate with students? Undoubtedly, this type of communication is going to become much more prevalent in the future. I can see the possibility of whole courses being taught exclusively via E-mail, or at least in combination with video technology (as in paper 8). There would be many advantages to this scheme, many have been mentioned already. Could it be that asynchronous teaching will largley replace traditional methods? If it does, what does everybody think the downsides might be? George Long Indiana Univ. of PA. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 10:58:41 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: email with students One question I have regarding the use of email with students for exam keys, and similar materials, is the handling of subscripts and superscripts etc. I make fairly extensive use of multiple layers of text in my word processor (eg. conversion factors including scientific notation and squares and cubes of units...) Do those of you using email to transmit such materials to students have that capability in your email software (my VMS system handles straight ASCII text only), or do you move your text to a straight ASCII representation such as H2SO4, or better yet HPO4-2 ?? ----------------------------------------------------------- | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 11:32:45 -0400 From: "Aline (Lindy) Harrison" Subject: e-mail exam answer posting Van Verth (canisius) posts exam answers on e-mail. My senior capstone is a writing intensive. Think I'll have them e-mail their papers to me...and I can correct them on line...then they can correct and resubmit without so much paper....and, as requested, I'll supply a way to do library search from Internet in a couple of days as soon as I find the papers among my stuff again. Lindy Harrison -- York College ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 11:39:10 -0500 From: Donald Peterson Subject: DISCUSSION OF PAPER 11 I have been a passive participant of this conference since it started. Since I am deaf, I do have to say that this is the first conference in which I have been able to participate fully and not feel disadvantaged in any way. The only negative aspects have been that I am not usually in my office during the summer and these discussions really eat up my disc quota. Gallaudet University has had e-mail for a long time, using a DEC-10 and now the VAX. Last year was the first time I used it for classroom use. This was for a 30-student General Chem course. At the beginning of the course, hard copy schedules and directions for using e-mail were distributed. After that everything from homework schedules, practice exams and general notices were sent out via email using a .DIS file containing account names for all of my students [those few who did not already have accounts got them fast]. While most had already had experience with email, it helped make them more computer literate. We have no problem with student workstations. There are stations scattered throughout the campus, as well as 20 in our Science Computer Lab. One great advantage is that I no longer have to keep hard copies for students who lose schedules and whatnot. I can simply send them another copy via email. A further advantage is that everything is in print. I do not denigrate in any way the sign language that we use for classroom communication, but the use of email does reinforce this communication. I'm sure that students who hear do not get everything that they should through hearing alone. I am puzzled as to why Dr. Snyder would need access to the students' directories on the VAX. Was this only with the Chemistry LAN? or with the general mainframe VAX? If the latter, I should think it would be a potential invasion of privacy, since the students (if they are anything like ours here) carry on a lot of personal conversation via email. Aside from that angle, isn't it a lot of bother to get into 28 different account to check? I would use a separate account for the Instructor (a course account as opposed to a personal account) and have the students sent email to that course account. Again, I thank all of you for these discussions on all of the papers. I have enjoyed their frankness and wit. Don Peterson ======================================================================= Donald O. Peterson ? 202-651-5385 (V/TDD) Department of Chemistry + - 202-651-5463 (FAX) Gallaudet University * dopeterson@gallua.bitnet Washington, D.C. 20002 ~~~ dopeterson@gallua.gallaudet.edu ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 11:44:42 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: e-mail for students Prof. Snyder has made a valuable suggestion in proposing wider use of e-mail in teaching. Using e-mail is an important skill to use in teaching science at all levels. For the science student it is a tool that they will need in their future work. And as several participants pointed out, there are various ways that we can use this tool to entice students to use it. For the non-science majors it is also important and for the same reasons that it is important for the science majors. You all may be aware that many liberal arts courses - especially writing courses - on some campuses are already using e-mail or some other form of electronic communication to process student work and provide feed back to students for on going projects. When e-mail is not used then diskettes are a useful way to reduce paper load. All students need some enticement for learning an important tool. These take the form of a grade, extra credit, or access to important information. Of the three the last is probably the most important. This one satisfies a need perceived by the student. However, even if something is perceived as needed it will be given up or postponed if access is too difficult. Furthermore, there is always the question of what is appropriate for inclusion in any particular course. Many items could be listed for a non-science major taking a chemistry course. Courses such as chemistry of polymers, food chemistry, forensic chemistry arise out of the desire to improve the science literacy of our students. This then leads to the consideration of what science literacy implies. Surely we would all agree that one or two courses in science does not make for a scientifically literate person. Perhaps consideration of this issue would be put into perspective by considering the following question that Prof. Nelson posed at one of his critical thinking workshops. The question is: "What do you want your student to remember about science when she is governor of your state 20 years from now?" When put into this light it becomes clear to me that no one individual fact is very important in the push to make a person scientifically literate. The focus shifts, in my opinion, to generating a positive attitude and a glimmer of awareness about science in students in such a way that the student is open to consider further reading and learning about science once they are out of the formal educational stream. There are many examples of successful courses that accomplish this goal. Some of these are at small four and two year colleges and some are at larger schools. The important thing is to match the learning experience with the mission of the school and the mission of the program while keeping in mind the long term needs of the students. It does no good to offer a great course full of facts and interesting topics if the students after the course never read about science again. As the 1990 NSF sponsored Sigma Xi report suggests, we should avoid offering courses that represent science as static bodies of knowledge to be memorized. In light of this then it becomes important to develop in students the awareness that they can figure things out for themselves and do things that scientists do. Prof. Snyder accomplishes this objective in one way by using e-mail as an effective teaching strategy. He further improves student engagement with the subject by designing their own exam questions. Assigning points toward the final score is an appropriate strategy for increasing compliance of the students on this activity. However, as we all know, no strategy ever ensures complete compliance from students. Prof. Snyder asks: "Is there a body of instructional software that is particularly suited to the non-science major?" I think that we can use the same software as we use for the science majors. For example, one of my students asked about the shape of a large ring hydrocarbon of 15 atoms. Was it puckered? After class I thought about how I would illustrate this to the student most effectively. I could have constructed a model with balls and sticks or some other modeling kit. Instead I turned to my little PC and started up my little modeling program. Next day I took the PC to class and we examined the model. There were several interesting outcomes from this exercise. First, the students were surprised that in a little financially strapped school like ours we could "do molecular modeling" on a computer. Second, it was a wonderful way to introduce how some of the drug companies do research on the structure of drugs and try to design new ones. Third, students who are non-science majors appreciate the same toys that science majors appreciate. Another example may give others some inspiration. As part of a food chemistry course I used a nutrition program for analyzing foods and menus. The program is called Nutrition Wizard. Students liked using this type of software. It was practical and satisfied one of my teaching objectives - to get students to analyze data about the foods that they eat. When this is coupled to a library exercise using standard nutrition references and a spreadsheet project, the students are presented with the opportunity of integrating information and tools in a useful critical thinking promoting fashion. I join Dr. Snyder in being interested in hearing about other examples of using standard software for the non science major. Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 11:48:43 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: email with students If you are using Eudora on a Mac or NuPop on a PC you "attach documents" typically MS Word or WordPerfect with formatted chemistry sybols and diagrams etc. They both use the same bin/hex encoding so at the other end you get readable files for your word processor. From a Mac you can easily send both a Mac and DOS version, or the Macs can read the PC version. The actual e-mail message just tells the recipient what is in the word processor document which they are asked to save on receipt or it may open automatically --- just like getting papers for this conference with Fetchit. Three cheears for PCs and Macs compared to the more expensive less friendly VMS or UNIX systems which can do it to but usually at a greater cost. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 12:28:27 -0400 From: "CARL H. SNYDER, CHEMISTRY; CSNYDER@UMIAMI" Subject: Re: DISCUSSION OF PAPER 11 Donald Peterson writes: >30-student General Chem course. At the beginning of the course, hard copy >schedules and directions for using e-mail were distributed. After that >everything from homework schedules, practice exams and general notices were >sent out via email using a .DIS file containing account names for all of my >students [those few who did not already have accounts got them fast]. While I, too, distributed hard copies of the schedule and other matters in the first class period, then put them onto the lan. I did note that that whenever I looked in on the students in the computer room the *only* files I ever saw on the screen were the review examinations. And that invariably was just before the scheduled examinations. ..... >One great advantage is that I no longer have to keep hard copies for students >who lose schedules and whatnot. I can simply send them another copy via email. A fine, fine use of e-mail, or of lan files, as far as I'm concerned. ..... >I am puzzled as to why Dr. Snyder would need access to the students' >directories on the VAX. Was this only with the Chemistry LAN? or with the >general mainframe VAX? If the latter, I should think it would be a potential >invasion of privacy, since the students (if they are anything like ours here) >carry on a lot of personal conversation via email. Aside from that angle, >isn't it a lot of bother to get into 28 different account to check? I would use >a separate account for the Instructor (a course account as opposed to a >personal account) and have the students sent email to that course account. This was only with the VAX. Here's why. Dr. Shelley, co-author of the paper, had previous experience using e-mail in a computer course he teaches. He found that his students would submit any specific piece of work to him repeatedly by e-mail with each submission a refinement of the previous one, up to the deadline for the work. Naturally, each submission came to him via e-mail and he had to scan or read each successive submission. His idea was for students to place all their files in their own directories, and for me to look into the students' directories after the deadline for submission had passed and read *only* the latest file for any given assignment. This in itself didn't penalize any student for repeated submission, yet saved me a lot of work reading obsolete submissions. Furthermore, after I had read, graded, and commented on each student's work I needed only to save it in that student's file under an appropriate filename. The student found it there the next time he or she logged in. Yes, it was a lot of work and bother, but I'm not convinced there's a better way to do it. I'd appreciate any suggestions anyone may have for an improvment on this process. As for issues of privacy, the student accounts were set up specifically for this couse and with the students' knowledge that I could read anything in the files. I don't know if that constitutes an invasion of privacy but in my own opinion that's not an issue here. If any particular student wanted to use the VAX account for his or her own correspondence, that was up to the student. Carl H. Snyder Internet: CSNYDER@umiami.IR.Miami.EDU Chemistry Department Bitnet: CSNYDER@umiami University of Miami Phone: (305)-284-2174 Coral Gables, FL 33124 FAX: (305)-285-4571 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 12:37:00 EST From: "DR. LISA KINTNER CHEMISTRY DEPARTMENT, UPJ, JOHNSTOWN PA" Subject: Paper # 11 and EMail in Teaching Carl Snyder's question: "Can E-Mail become a useful supplement to office conferences?" generated some interesting responses. I saw some suggestions that I would like to see introduced here at UPJ. Larry Rosenhein, Indiana State University/Terre Haute, suggests: >I see a lot of potential here. Besides providing another outlet for >chewing on the material, creating a sense of community, and >developing those all-important communication skills, this activity >might simply add to the interest of being in the course itself. > One other thing that e-mail could be used for ... is posting old exams from the course. Two recent articles in J. Chem. Ed on Writing in the Chemistry curriculum (Sunderwirth, S.G. J.Chem.Ed. 1993 70(6), 474-475; and Cooper, M.M. J.Chem.Ed. 1993 70(6), 476-477) had ideas that I see as easily translated into an EMail "plan" Lindy Harrison, York College of PA, describes > a senior capstone course....as a part of Internet acquisition of >library info....I will also set up a notes system in which I will give >assignments which they can pick up only in e-mail notes system >....thus forcing them into it. James E. Van Verth Canisius College, Buffalo, NY, is one of many who described the >posting solutions to current exams on the network server. The >consist of scanned copies of hand-marked tests, and thus have to be >stored as paint files. They are low resolution to save space, and are >jagged, but readable. Students clamor for them if I don't post them >in a timely fashion. Barry Rowe (browe@ncsa.uiuc.edu) tells us that we would be wise to introduce EMail as early as possible. . . >What are you going to do with students who are used to email >access in high school and demand it in college? We have an ISDN >line and I expect most high schools to have it in 5 years. Harry E. Pence (BITNET: PENCEHE@SNYONEVA) described an application similar to Lindy Harrison's, >Last semester I introduced electronic communications in my senior >seminar class for the first time. My main focus was teaching them >to use telnet to access Chem Abstracts, but I also asked each >student to sign on to a chemistry-related bulletin board and write a >one-page report on one of the threads on that bulletin board. After reading these comments I am prompted to circulate Carl's paper and the comment to my department colleagues and request ideas for applications of EMail in our chem classes. I expect that I will attempt to use it extensively next spring when I teach advanced inorganic. Perhaps with another summer to play with the idea, I might introduce it into my freshman level gen chem and prep-chem courses. My own experience with EMail started as a post-doc. Another post-doc who had used BITNET previously joined the group and motivated everyone to get BITNET accounts. That year I helped organize an international conference via BITNET and found that it was a much more efficient method to communicate with my old grad school friends. My first teaching job (fall 1990) was at a mid-size four-year school which had a VAX and was the end-node of a larger VAX network. Two of the chemistry faculty had VAX accounts, but rarely used them. As I began to make inquiries about EMail, I found that I was at the pioneering edge for that institution. Although I was only there for a year, I had a student doing research under me and he was to continue after I left; he was to communicate his results via EMail. Therefore I instructed him to get a VAX account and gave him some basic instruction. Once he started sending me EMail, all of the chem students who knew me started sending EMail - - it caught on like wild-fire. When I arrived at UPJ (fall 1991), I found that although Pitt has a good system, only a small fraction of the faculty on this campus take full advantage of it. I learned a great deal about the availability of information over the INTERNET by participating in Richard Smith's "Navigating the INTENET" workshop last fall. This conference has provided unlimited opportunities for learning. What about students? Quite by accident one of my genchem students ( a comp sci major) got my address and started sending messages asking for clarification on class assignments, etc. At the time I was intrigued by the student's resourcefulness. I have noticed that many of my students will pick up the phone and call me in the office to ask questions. I suspect that if they knew they cold do the same via EMail they would. When I teach advanced inorganic in the spring (5 to 10 students) I have them use ChemAbstracts via STN and the library's on-line database. Some of these kids have VAX accounts and I quickly show them how they can gain access to other information sources from the computer in my office. These kids usually get hooked and start to use electronic communication. I suspect that with a requirement that they must use it and some basic instruction (Carl Snyder's on-line tutorials are nice!!) it would work well. It's just like my 13-year-old and the roller coasters . . .give them something they find exciting that appeals to their visual senses and has a resemblance to the electronic world around them -- and they will use it because it's "fun"! Finally, to answer Carl's question directly, >Are there better carrots to use than extra credit to induce >students to learn and use electronic communication? After reading the other responses, I have come to the conclusion that we need to make electronic communication an integral part of our courses. Some excellent suggestions have been made. I suspect that there are others. Barry Rowe (browe@ncsa.uiuc.edu) made the point that soon our freshmen will almost expect it. Let's not disappoint them -- rather let's challenge them! Lisa Kintner Department of Chemistry University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown Johnstown, PA KINTNER@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 13:27:35 -0400 From: "James E. Van Verth" Subject: Re: e-mail exam answer posting >Van Verth (canisius) posts exam answers on e-mail. My senior capstone is a >writing intensive. Think I'll have them e-mail their papers to me...and I can >correct them on line...then they can correct and resubmit without so much >paper....and, as requested, I'll supply a way to do library search from >Internet in a couple of days as soon as I find the papers among my stuff again. > >Lindy Harrison -- York College Correction: I don't post answers on e-mail; I put them on the server for "public" access. The reason being that the answers are hand written, and must be provided as graphics files. That, of course, does not affect your excellent plans, Lindy. I believe that some word processors - I think MSWord - have ways of attaching separate editorial comments to documents. James E. Van Verth Department of Chemistry VANVERTH@CANISIUS.BITNET Canisius College, Buffalo, NY 14208 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 13:33:37 -0400 From: "James E. Van Verth" Subject: Re: e-mail exam answer posting Just as I sent the last comments, I came to the realization that, of course, word processor documents as such can't be sent by e-mail, either. Never mind... James E. Van Verth Department of Chemistry VANVERTH@CANISIUS.BITNET Canisius College, Buffalo, NY 14208 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 15:16:45 -0400 From: Robert Nelson Subject: Re: Paper 11: Posting old exams While using e-mail to communicate with students is a laudable idea, not every instutution has sufficient access to e-mail and/or terminals for all students to have convenient use. In addition, it discriminates against students who must commute to campus since their already long day must be extended to find a terminal and check their e-mail. We cannot even get our students to check their snail-mail boxes on a regular basis. As far as posting old exams, I prefer to place them on reserve in the library or include them in a packet the students purchase at the start of the term. This is particularly important since figures and chemical formulas do not "translate" well. Robert N. Nelson, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Chemistry Chemistry - 8064 Georgia Southern University Statesboro, GA 30460 912-681-5675 rnnelson@gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 14:32:05 PST From: "Edward H. Piepmeier" Subject: paper 11 >George Long writes: I can see the possibility >of whole courses being taught exclusively via E-mail,..Could >it be that asynchronous teaching will largely replace >traditional methods? If it does, what does everybody think >the downsides might be? -------------------------------------------------- I am an email enthusiast, and I have seen it catch on quickly. But that has made me wonder where are we going to get the computer storage, network time, and personal time to read and answer all communications? Our mainframe email accounts have a 500-Kbyte limit and my local network manager feels that this is adequate (although he has not yet imposed a limit). I have had little trouble transferring 5-Megabyte image files via ftp, but what will happen after traffic increases exponentially? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 17:56:02 -0500 From: Alton Banks Subject: Re: e-mail exam answer posting >Just as I sent the last comments, I came to the realization that, of >course, word processor documents as such can't be sent by e-mail, either. >Never mind... > >James E. Van Verth Department of Chemistry >VANVERTH@CANISIUS.BITNET Canisius College, Buffalo, NY 14208 ............................................... I would like to add a bit of experience to this topic. It is possible to have a word-processor document saved as an RTF file, encoded (with BinHex or uuencode) and sent via e-mail. This process is highly susceptible to local computing environments. NCSU Chem. Dept. has a departmental RISC6000 to which all faculty can be attached. I use a MAC for most of my word processor work. I use EUDORA to have my MAC communicate with the RISC6000. I can send a file--handled as described above--to a colleague --or for that matter to another Internet address, the recipient decodes it (BinHex or uudecode) and can open it within his/her word processor. It's a hassle the first time you do it, but the learning curve is pleasant ! Graphics obviously have their own problems, but as discussants at this conference know GIF files can be used to solve those problems. Alton J. Banks, Chemistry Electronic address: banks@chemdept.chem.ncsu.edu Mailing address: North Carolina State University Department of Chemistry Box 8204 Raleigh, NC 27695-8204 Phone (919) 515-2546 Fax (919) 515-5079 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 21:34:10 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: Paper 11: Posting old exams In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 3 Aug 1993 15:16:45 -0400 from Email is not for everyone .. now. However, it is just a matter of time. All students are going to need to know how to communicate in this way. There are certainly many reasons of convenience for using email in a course setting, but in my opinion, this is not the most important reason for using it. By requiring students to become familiar and comfortable with email and other as yet unknown forms of communciation, we will better prepare them for life in an optoelectronic world. On Tue, 3 Aug 1993 15:16:45 -0400 Robert Nelson said: >While using e-mail to communicate with students is a laudable idea, >not every instutution has sufficient access to e-mail and/or terminals >for all students to have convenient use. In addition, it discriminates >against students who must commute to campus since their already long >day must be extended to find a terminal and check their e-mail. >We cannot even get our students to check their snail-mail boxes on a >regular basis. > As far as posting old exams, I prefer to place them on reserve >in the library or include them in a packet the students purchase at the start >of the term. This is particularly important since figures and chemical >formulas do not "translate" well. > >Robert N. Nelson, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of Chemistry >Chemistry - 8064 Georgia Southern University Statesboro, GA 30460 >912-681-5675 rnnelson@gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 22:13:49 CDT From: Brad Thompson Subject: Distributing Grades by E-mail, etc Regarding distributing grades via networks: ========================================== << Follow-up on Peter Gold's msg. >> This very unglamorous use of networks (e-mail or otherwise) is popular with students, and a really sweet carrot. I've worked it out in two environments: * At the University of Toledo, on an old PDP-11 network under RSTS, we ran a program called MYGRADE. We had a gradebook program from which we could export grade reports that students could get from any network terminal. Most chemistry faculty distributed exam results this way -- often within an hour of the grading. We would have final course grades in general chemistry "on the net" within a day after the final was given. Lots of students asked why all departments couldn't do this. * At Gustavus Adolphus this past spring we made the first use of a similar program for Novell Netware PC networks. In its first test this program reported only results from our individualized- homework program, but in principle it will handle any table of of grades in comma-quote-delimited form. When we have a version for general use (this summer, I trust) I'll put a note on CHEMED-L and PHYS-L. Two observations from experience: -------------------------------- (1) Student response. A major advantage to grade distribution by this means is that students can easily be given complete, up-to-date printouts of their grade records, with such comparison standards as the faculty member wishes. Students really appreciate this! Many of them don't (perhaps don't know how to) keep up on their status. I have generally posted advisory target score totals for A's, B's, etc. Oh, and faculty members' grade records do occasionally get screwed up, too! With a procedure like this, students will tell you! (2) Student identification. Grades should not, and need not, be distributed (by computer or otherwise) using part of each student's SS number, or their student ID, or the like. I'm not sure that one is totally in the clear vis-a-vis federal privacy laws even with students' permission, unless (a) you "inform them of their rights", and (b) make grades equally available by other means. There's a simple alternative: just pass out a code for this specific purpose! It's simple to do -- four- or five-letter combination is adequate. If codes are generated randomly, leave out vowels in the middle -- this avoids most objectionable words. Both at Toledo and at GAC we devised programs that would allow the students to "register" their codes and enter their names and student ID numbers. For some, this simple program was their first computer experience! At Toledo we used this to get their names into our gradebook files. A labor-saving scheme, and they almost always spell their names correctly. H. Bradford Thompson [Brad] Scholar in Residence, Chemistry & Physics bradt@gac.edu Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, Minnesota 56082 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 23:40:44 -0500 Reply-To: Carolyn Sweeney Judd From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Answers to Paper 12 - Short Questions In-Reply-To: <9307271246.AA17379@umd5.umd.edu> NOTE: ANSWERS ARE IN CAPITAL LETTERS On Tue, 27 Jul 1993, Donald Rosenthal wrote: > Paper 12 - Short Questions > > THE COMPUTER CO-OP: TEACHING ORGANIC CHEMISTRY ON A CONFERENCE IN AN > INTERDISCIPLINARY MACINTOSH LAB > by Carolyn S. Judd and Robert G. Ford > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sections 2.2 and 2.3: > a. I assume the "lecture" actually consisted of these three > activities. > Is that correct? YES. > > b. Did you consider two 1.5 hour sessions or three 1 hour sessions? > Don't students get tired in such a long session? YES, 3 HOUR LECTURES ARE FAR TOO LONG, BUT BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF OUR COMMUNITY COLLEGE, THE 0 COMMUNITING DISTANCES, AND THE LARGE PERCENTAGE OF WORKING STUDENTS, WE DO NOT FORSEE ANY CHANGE IN THE NEAR FUTURE. > c. Were students expected to read an assignment prior to class? > Did they read or review the assignment after class? > Do you have any information on how they allocated out-of-class > time to this course? STUDENTS WERE EXPECTED TO READ THE CHAPTER PRIOR TO CLASS. AND THE STUDENTS WERE ASSIGNED MANY OF THE PROBLEMS AT THE END OF EACH CHAPTER OF THE TEXT. THESE PROBLEMS WERE REVIEWED UPON REQUEST. STUDENTS ALSO USED THE STUDY GUIDE WHICH HAD SOLUTIONS TO ALL THE PROBLEMS. THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT TO INCLUDE SOME REVIEW OF THE PRIOR CHAPTER WITHIN THE NEW PROBLEMS FOR EACH NEW CHAPTER DISCUSSED OVER PACERFORUM. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 2. > PacerForum . . supports graphics and sound as well as text. > > . . They would . . scroll through the opening messages > > from the instructor . . (section 3.4.1) > > When they entered the classroom, students were presented with a > > short summary of the material assigned for the day (prepared in > > advance) . . (section 3.4.2) > > a. Were the opening messages oral (in sound) or in text? OPENING MESSAGES WERE IN TEXT. > > b. How was sound used - by the students? - by the instructor? > How much time was devoted to PacerForum sound each week? MAINLY FOR FUN. THE FIRST TIME WAS WHEN THE ANNOUNCEMENT THAT IT WAS TIME FOR A BREAK. THE STUDENT HAD TO PRESS THE ICON SHAPED LIKE A MEGAPHONE TO HEAR THE MESSAGE. THEN SOME STUDENTS BEGAN TO RECORD MUSIC, AND REPLAY IT. THIS WAS GREAT FUN, BUT NOT EXPLORED FOR ITS TEACHING UTILITY. > c. Was the short summary supplied as hard copy or via PacerForum? SUMMARIES WERE ON PACERFORUM. ANY STUDENT COULD COPY ANY PART (OR ALL) OR THE SESSION. > d. Does PacerForum make the handling of graphics easy? > How much graphics did you create for this course? YES, GRAPHICS ARE HANDLED EASILY BY PACERFORUM. STUDENTS WOULD PRESS THE ICON TO ACCESS THE GRAPHIC. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 3. (Section 3.4.3) > > Each student would be given a slightly different response, > > based on the response he or she had provided. > > During the course of the class session, the teacher would send > > responses; all would see these as they were posted. > > With sixteen students wasn't this rather confusing? THESE WAS GREAT! SURELY NO MORE CONFUSING THAN ANSWERING QUESTIONS IN A REGULAR CLASSROOM. THE BIG DIFFERENCE WAS THAT ALL STUDENTS GOT ATTENTION, NOT JUST THE COURAGEOUS ONES. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 4. (Section 3.4.5) > I am not an organic chemist and I probably saw an early version of > Beaker. I agree that it is a remarkable program. However, the > version that I saw didn't always give the correct answer. (For > example - pKs). > > Is this still true? > Doesn't this cause a problem? INDEED SOME OF THE ANSWERS GENERATED BY BEAKER ARE NOT CORRECT - BUT STUDENTS LOVE THE PROGRAM, AND UNDERSTAND READILY THAT IT HAS LIMITATIONS. THE BIG LESSON THAT THEY LEARN IS THAT BEAKER CAN DO A LOT, AND IT DOES NOT COST A LOT. SOON THE STUDENTS REALIZES THAT MAYBE S(HE) CAN DO AS WELL AS THIS INEXPENSIVE PROGRAM. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 5. (Section 6.6) > a. Was or will this course be taken by chemistry majors? MOST OF OUR STUDENTS ARE BONING UP FOR ENTRY TO PROFESSIONAL SCHOOLS, MEDICAL, PHARMACY, NURSING, ETC. WE HAVE PRECIOUS FEW CHEMISTRY MAJORS. > b. > How much material can be cut from a course without discrediting > > the course? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 6. a. Computers can assist in helping to provide a better understanding > of the three dimensional character of molecules. Have you > considered using molecular modelling software in the course? WE HAVE ORDERED CHEM 3DPLUS AND HAVE A NICE QUADRO, AND A MEANS TO DISPLAY THE MODELS FOR ALL TO SEE. > b. Have you considered using computer simulation of qual organic > software like MacSQUALOR or MacQual? WE WOULD LIKE SOME MORE INFORMATION ABOUT HOW OTHERS USE THESESOFTWARE PROGRAMS. > c. Have you considered using Stan Smith's organic chemistry software? WE HAVE ORDERED AND RECEIVED A COPY OVER THE SUMMER, AND WILL USE THIS FALL. > d. Have you considered using Andrew Montana's award winning software > involving organic reaction mechanisms? THE ORGANIC REACTION MECHANISMS SOFTWARE NOTED IN THIS PAPER SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED BOTH AUTHORS: ANDREW MONTANA AND JEFFREY R. BUELL. TRULY THIS SOFTWARE IS A BEAUTIFUL EXAMPLE OF DOING SOMETHING BETTER WITH COMPUTERS. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Carolyn S. Judd and Robert G. Ford Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 23:54:28 -0500 Reply-To: Carolyn Sweeney Judd From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Answers to Questions- Paper 12 In-Reply-To: NOTE:ANSWERS ARE IN CAPITAL LETTERS On Fri, 30 Jul 1993, CHARLES SUNDIN, CHAIR, CHEMISTRY wrote: > 1. You stated that you have 5 sections of Organic per semester. There > were 16 students in your "group". > > What is the size of a typical "section" or what is the total organic > enrollment? TYPICAL CLASSES ARE FROM 15 TO 30 STUDENTS. > > 2. What is your normal teaching load per semester? NORMAL TEACHING LOAD IS THREE FOUR-HOUR CLASSES; EACH CONSISTING OF A 3-HOUR LECTURE AND A 3-HOUR LABORATORY PER WEEK. > 3. Will you continue this mode of instruction and with all of your > students? YES, WITH THE MODIFICATIONS MADE SO THAT AUDITORY LEARNERS ARE NOT LEFT OUT; I.E., SUPPLEMENTING THE TOTAL COMPUTER APPROACH WITH ABOUT 1/3 STANDARD LECTURE. > 4. Will the other organic instructors at your campus and in your > "system" adopt this mode of instruction? MANY OF THE ORGANIC INSTRUCTORS ARE INTERESTED IN PORTIONS. I BELIEVE THAT SOON THE READY AVAILABILITY AND ALSO THE OPEN LAB TIME WILL ATTRACT STUDENTS ON THEIR OWN. > 5. Assuming you are responsible for only organic lecture and lab as > your full time teaching position, how many students do you think you > could teach (being at least as effective as you were before this > experiment) using this mode of instruction? CAROLYN JUDD TAUGHT ONLY ONE ORGANIC CLASS DURING THE SPRING, AS WELL AS ONE INTRODUCTORY CLASS FOR STUDENTS WITHOUT HIGH SCHOOL CHEMISTRY. RELEASE TIME FOR THE OTHER PART OF THE FULL-TIME LOAD WAS GIVEN BY A GRANT FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF A PROTON NMR TUTOR, WHICH WILL INCLUDE QUICK-TIME MOVIES OF RESEARCHERS AND ACTUAL INSTRUMENTS. THIS GRANT IS UNDERWRITTEN BY OUR OFFICE OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, WHICH ACTS AS A SOURCE FOR FACULTY DEVELOPMENT OF COMPUTER PROGRAMS. Do you think adequate software is easily availablevfor the Intel > platform for this mode of instruction? VERY GOOD SOFTWARE IS AVAILABLE. HOWEVER, THERE IS LESS SOFTWARE AVAILABLE THAT IS APPROPRIATE FOR THE FIRST SEMESTER OF AN ORGANIC COURSE. Carolyn S. Judd and Robert G. Ford Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 06:32:44 -0400 From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" Subject: Re: Paper 11 Baubles for Liberal Arts Students In-Reply-To: <9308021920.AB26643@umd5.umd.edu> Terrell Wilson: > Our liberal arts students are not like us, and that is one of the > hardest things for science teachers to understand. A real eye-opener for me was Sheila Tobias' book "They're Not Dumb; They're Different". The book describes an experiment in which several non-science graduate students (and one professor) were paid to take first-year science-major chemistry and physics courses and to keep a detailed journal reporting their reactions to the course and their observations of their fellow students. Most of them found the courses to be intellectually sterile, obsessed with quantitative answers, and to provide little opportunity for actual discussion with the teacher or with other students. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 07:05:28 -0400 From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" Subject: Re: email with students In-Reply-To: <9308031758.AA13204@umd5.umd.edu> > Frank M. Lanzafame > One question I have regarding the use of email with students for exam > keys, and similar materials, is the handling of subscripts and > superscripts etc....such as H2SO4, or better yet HPO4-2 ?? 1. One way is to use three lines for each line of "chemistry": -2 H SO HPO 2 4 4 It's harder to write and to edit, but it's unambiguous, platform independent, and easier to read than H2SO4 and HPO4-2. 2. As several people have suggested, you can text-encode a binary document, expecting the recipient to decode it, but this is a hassle unless you are using a LAN mail system or a specific mail client that automates the process. 3. As others have suggested, you can distribute binary documents via LAN fileserver rather than by mail, but this requires that the students use workstations on the LAN, whereas they can access e-mail from home if they have a computer and a modem. A LAN can be the most transparent way to distribute formatted documents electronically, as it requires only a knowledge of directory navigation and file saving or copying, which any computer user will already know. One note: We use our departmental LAN fileserver (AppleShare) for submission of completed assignments in some courses by creating "drop folders", which are folders (Mac-talk for subdirectories) for which students have write access but not read access - that is, a "write-only" folder. Students can copy (drag) their completed files into this folder, but can not open the folder to look at other students' work. I have seen this idea used even in 5th grade computer labs. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 09:05:40 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 11: Posting old exams >While using e-mail to communicate with students is a laudable idea, >not every instutution has sufficient access to e-mail and/or terminals >for all students to have convenient use. In addition, it discriminates >against students who must commute to campus since their already long >day must be extended to find a terminal and check their e-mail. >We cannot even get our students to check their snail-mail boxes on a >regular basis. That's the nice thing about e-mail -- more students these days seem to have computers at home than faculty -- and many have a modem -- they can check their e-mail from home. > As far as posting old exams, I prefer to place them on reserve >in the library or include them in a packet the students purchase at the start >of the term. This is particularly important since figures and chemical >formulas do not "translate" well. Don't put the exams in the body of the e-mail message but rather in an attachment. The attached word processor document can contain formulae, graphs etc. Minimal PCs or Macs as terminals can handle this and the software is free or very inexpensive for universities and colleges. > >Robert N. Nelson, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of Chemistry >Chemistry - 8064 Georgia Southern University Statesboro, GA 30460 >912-681-5675 rnnelson@gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 09:10:24 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: paper 11 > >George Long writes: I can see the possibility > >of whole courses being taught exclusively via E-mail,..Could > >it be that asynchronous teaching will largely replace > >traditional methods? If it does, what does everybody think > >the downsides might be? > -------------------------------------------------- > I am an email enthusiast, and I have seen it catch on quickly. > But that has made me wonder where are we going to get the > computer storage, network time, and personal time to read and > answer all communications? Our mainframe email accounts have > a 500-Kbyte limit and my local network manager feels that this > is adequate (although he has not yet imposed a limit). I have > had little trouble transferring 5-Megabyte image files via > ftp, but what will happen after traffic increases > exponentially? The trick is to keep your e-mail downloaded frequently to your Mac or PC where you are unlimited and with disks at such a low cost there is no problem with central server limits unless you are away on hollidays -- I came back after 12 days yesterday to find 170 messages occupying several mB. As the traffic goes up, network bandwidth will be pushed up. Ethernet is migrating from 10 MHz to 100. FDDI is 100 MHz. All on cheap unshielded twisted pair. New and faster standards are being developed. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 09:15:18 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: e-mail exam answer posting >>Just as I sent the last comments, I came to the realization that, of >>course, word processor documents as such can't be sent by e-mail, either. >>Never mind... >> >>James E. Van Verth Department of Chemistry >>VANVERTH@CANISIUS.BITNET Canisius College, Buffalo, NY 14208 >............................................... >I would like to add a bit of experience to this topic. It is possible to >have a word-processor document saved as an RTF file, encoded (with BinHex >or uuencode) and sent via e-mail. This process is highly susceptible to >local computing environments. NCSU Chem. Dept. has a departmental RISC6000 >to which all faculty can be attached. I use a MAC for most of my word >processor work. I use EUDORA to have my MAC communicate with the RISC6000. > I can send a file--handled as described above--to a colleague --or for >that matter to another Internet address, the recipient decodes it (BinHex >or uudecode) and can open it within his/her word processor. >It's a hassle the first time you do it, but the learning curve is pleasant ! >Graphics obviously have their own problems, but as discussants at this >conference know GIF files can be used to solve those problems. > With Eudora just Attach Document, and if you don't know if the recipient is using a Mac or a PC save the Mac document from word or WordPerfect in DOS format on your Mac which can still be opened by the Mac or by anyone else with Word or Wordperfect. WP files are a bit nasty in that they don't always translate well to other word processors. Eudora does the binhex for you automatically and someone at the other end with Eudora or NuPop on a PC just receives it and it decodes automaticlally. Nothing fancey, no special precautions, just use the features built into the user friedly software & it will be invisible to the novice. My wife, a Professor of Fine ARts got the hang of it in 5 minutes. >Alton J. Banks, Chemistry > >Electronic address: banks@chemdept.chem.ncsu.edu > >Mailing address: >North Carolina State University >Department of Chemistry >Box 8204 >Raleigh, NC 27695-8204 > >Phone (919) 515-2546 >Fax (919) 515-5079 Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 09:23:37 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: email with students >> Frank M. Lanzafame >> One question I have regarding the use of email with students for exam >> keys, and similar materials, is the handling of subscripts and >> superscripts etc....such as H2SO4, or better yet HPO4-2 ?? > >1. One way is to use three lines for each line of "chemistry": > > -2 > H SO HPO > 2 4 4 > >It's harder to write and to edit, but it's unambiguous, platform >independent, and easier to read than H2SO4 and HPO4-2. > >2. As several people have suggested, you can text-encode a binary >document, expecting the recipient to decode it, but this is a hassle >unless you are using a LAN mail system or a specific mail client that >automates the process. Nothing special is required -- just shareware if you are on Macs or PCs. The mail lives in a normal UNIX e-mail account (or VMS for some people or even an old mainframe) on a server somewhere - not necessarily on campus and you log into it from either a campus network or from home and read your mail on your personal computer. > >3. As others have suggested, you can distribute binary documents via LAN >fileserver rather than by mail, but this requires that the students use >workstations on the LAN, whereas they can access e-mail from home if they >have a computer and a modem. A LAN can be the most transparent way to >distribute formatted documents electronically, as it requires only a >knowledge of directory navigation and file saving or copying, which any >computer user will already know. It works just fine for me from home as well as at the office where I'm on the lan. It can be tedious unless you have a 9600 BAUD or faster modem at each end. > >One note: We use our departmental LAN fileserver (AppleShare) for >submission of completed assignments in some courses by creating "drop >folders", which are folders (Mac-talk for subdirectories) for which >students have write access but not read access - that is, a "write-only" >folder. Students can copy (drag) their completed files into this folder, >but can not open the folder to look at other students' work. I have >seen this idea used even in 5th grade computer labs. In the Mac world AppleTalk Remote Access is great -- you can access servers on campus from home just like on your local area network including use of softwre located on the server. At 9600 BAUD it can take a while for a program to open (5 minutes or more) though for small applications there is no problem. It's great for Eudora based e-mail and Turbo-Gopher -- look up a FAX number in australia and then FAX from the powerbook. > >Tom O'Haver >U. of Maryland Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 09:46:00 EST From: "DR. LISA KINTNER CHEMISTRY DEPARTMENT, UPJ, JOHNSTOWN PA" Subject: Paper 12 Answers to Authors' Questions FILENAME: PAPER12 DISC CONTENTS: ANSWERS TO AUTHORS' QUESTIONS IN PAPER 12 Answers to the authors' questions for paper 12. >THIS IS WHAT WE ARE CURIOUS ABOUT AND THEREFORE POSE THESE >QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION: > >6.1 >Can non-experts learn from each other, especially in a >complex field like Organic Chemistry? I think we'd all like to believe that perhaps all nonexperts, and in particular our students, can learn from each other -- regardless of the field. Isn't this what cooperative learning is all about. I try to tell my students what we learn more from our mistakes (that is figuring out why the answer was wrong) than being told the correct answer. I've developed problem sets for my general chemistry classes with very complex, long, and laborious problems which the students must solve as teams. I create the teams based on class performance so as to get a mix of abilities in each group. I give them a week to work the problems and schedule in one class period in which the teams can work on the problem. During that time I circulate from group to group to monitor progress and nudge them to work cooperatively. The overall response is favorable. The positive comments are that it gives them an opportunity to meet other classmates (especially good first semester freshman year) and they get to learn about material they might otherwise miss. The negative comments are largely that they have difficulty finding a time to meet as a team outside of the class time. I have had students who don't really understand how to work as a team; helping them to see teamwork as a means of learning is perhaps the hardest thing. I've also tried this same approach as a lab project-- simulating the environment of a research group. It worked best in that environment. Each student performed one small portion of the experiment. They can only draw conclusions when all of the data and results are combined. This received very positive response. Note that the July issue of J. Chem. Ed. has several articles that address this idea. >6.2 >Why is Organic Chemistry often identified as the hardest >course a student takes? It is not the quantity of material >(biology has millions of terms). It is not the math. Do we >pride ourselves in its inaccessibility? > I can only speak from my own experience as a freshman soon-to- be sophomore fifteen years ago. I had many friends who were sophomores; they all moaned dreadfully about how difficult organic was. I was prepared for the worst; and when I started organic in the fall, I experienced the worst (at least by my standards). At some point during the second semester, I was able to distance myself from the situation. At Chapel Hill 75% to 85% of the students in organic were destined for professional school in the health sciences of some sort. They were all there to pass their MCAT's and get into professional school. I saw that I was feeling oppressed by the competitiveness of my classmates and hadn't been able to learn for the sheer fun of it (not unusual among 20-year-olds). I think that part of what made it seem less difficult second semester was that the professor began to make connections between what we were learning and what we had learned as freshmen and "everyday life". I call myself a bioinorganic chemist. My graduate coursework was in inorganic but I trained in a very multidisciplinary research group. We had protein people, we had and inorganic organic types, we had a few NMR jocks and ALL of us did spectroscopy. Now I'm the resident inorganic chemist at a branch campus of a large university. Most of my teaching load is general chemistry (each year I teach one advanced inorganic course). Most of my students in general will go on to take organic; most of them are already "afraid" of it before they begin their second year. Why? Probably because those same nasty "rumors" are being passed down from the kids further along. When I start the second semester course, I let them know that probably 95% of them will go on to take organic and that I suspect most of them have already heard that it's a REALLY difficult course . . . and I agree. Then I tell them that a lot of what they have heard is nothing more than a nasty rumor. I proceed to explain that many of the principles and much of the descriptive chemistry that they will learn this semester are nothing more than organic chemistry. I hope than by taking organic chemistry out or the neat little box that we have created, I can help dispel the "nasty rumor" before these kids become sophomores. >6.3 >Consider a research lab, with a lot of collaboration going >on. Can we achieve some of that excitement if we encourage >student collaboration during lecture? > I've tried to do this in the group exercises that I described in response to question 6.1 above. I think that ultimately this is possible. I suspect that we have a few barriers to overcome. Perhaps the greatest barrier to change is style. Theresa Zielinski described it as "the resistance to movement away from algorithms". Can we overcome that barrier? Yes . . in time. >6.4 >Can anyone lecture for 3-hours after lunch -- can anyone >really listen for 3-hours? > I rather doubt it. I teach two back-to-back sections of the same course at 12N and 1P. It's been a real challenge to stay alive. When I get back to my office I'm exhausted! Don Rosenthal posed the question: >b. Did you consider two 1.5 hour sessions or three 1 hour sessions? > Don't students get tired in such a long session? >6.5 >Can writing lead to understanding? Does better writing >reflect clearer thinking? > Recent articles in J. Chem. Ed. (May, June and July) as well as the leading references to these articles suggest that this is true. I certainly gain a much better understanding of a subject when I write about it. The key to having our students reach this stage is the types of exercises which we employ. >6.6 >How much material can be cut from a course without >discrediting the course? >Can we agree on a bare minimum of general mechanisms and >principles, with which our students will be able to tackle >more advanced courses? > The discussion thread which developed under the heading "New Tools vs Old Methods" addressed this question. >6.7 >Memorizing tons of mechanisms does not lead to mastery, but >can understanding the basic mechanisms lead to mastery? > I'm not sure; but then how do we define "mastery"? I can't remember who said it, but one of the participant suggested that mastery comes about with time and experience. What can we hope to achieve for beginning organic students (for our chemistry majors?)? Understanding and appreciating the principles underlying the basic mechanisms is probably a good start. If we aim to make them "independent learners" mastery will come more easily. >6.8 >The network itself depends upon the teacher. What are your >experiences and ideas about teaching through electronic >conferences? > This conference is probably the best example I can give for using electronic conferences as a means of teaching. I participated in Richard Smith's "Navigating the Internet: an Interactive Workshop" last fall. In both cases the motivation has been to learn more about the available technology. We probably need a "tastier carrot" for our students. I have found that when I teach my seniors how to use on- line searching and mention the wealth of information available over the INTERNET my enthusiasm is contagious. >6.9 >With the help of appropriate software, can we make experts of >our students, even the beginning organic chemistry students? >Can they explore and verify the correctness of their answers >themselves? > Experts may be asking too much -- though I must admit I sometimes wish I could. I think that Theresa's (Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu) goals are realistic and address this question nicely: >>I guess my goal now for my students is to make them independent >>learners. Give them some modern toys to play with, some modern >>tasks that develop >>their basic skills, and challenge them to >>explore learning and the creation of their own understanding of the >>world around us. >6.10 >Finally, based on all of the above, do we serve as teachers >if we only help provide the directional signposts? > I can empathize with the point made in 5.1 >a student writes, " ... The teacher when asked a question >either answers with a question or gives you an answer which >literally confuses you more than before. As a student I am >here to be taught and when there is no instruction by the >teacher, why should we call it a class, when we are all on >our own." I've used the strategy of answering a question with another question. I got into this habit when my would-be architect 13-year- old son was about 21/2 -- long before I started teaching college chemistry. It frustrates him sometimes -- just as it frustrates my students sometimes. I'm beginning my fourth year of teaching full- time and I'm finally at that vantage point where I can observe the student maturation process. I doubt I'll have disagreement that teaching is many things. Providing directional guideposts is a major part. We also have to help them learn to use the signposts. That is perhaps the most challenging part. Simply lecturing (imparting information in a formal detached manner) doesn't accomplish either of these goals effectively. Understanding how our students learn and developing a teaching style that speaks to the modes of learning will accomplish those goals more effectively. Lisa Kintner Department of Chemistry University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown Johnstown, PA KINTNER@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 10:47:01 EDT Reply-To: smitc@vims.edu From: "Craig L. Smith" Subject: Re: DISCUSSION OF PAPER 11 On Tue, 3 Aug 1993 11:39:10 -0500, Donald Peterson wrote: >I have been a passive participant of this conference since it started. Since I >am deaf, I do have to say that this is the first conference in which I have >been able to participate fully and not feel disadvantaged in any way. >A further advantage is that everything is in print. Well I too am disabled (a C4 quad), with little opportunity to travel to conferences, or to read papers in the massive tomes that are the convention in scientific conference and general publications. It is refreshing to be able to retrieve papers (& figures) in electronic format. Kudos to T. O'Haver for the excellent job of convening and moderating. I should also be thankful to the UMD CWIS system that allows such varied electronic access to this conference and other material by internet gopher, telnet, ftp, and email connection. Although I do little course teaching per se, I have found email an effective tool for rapid asynchronous communication with students and colleagues. It is effective for 'open book' examinations, assignments, and Q&A sessions. I think if more universities offered similarly powerful information services, and also insisted (as Clarkson & Va Tech & ... do) that entering students purchase a PC (no OS or manufacturer implied or endorsed) as part of student activity fees, we would see an enormous growth in electronic communication in teaching, examining, and learning. Even those commuting students could login to such services by modem at modest cost. A minimum hardware setup can be obtained by investment of <$1000, and with free PD packages such as kermit, clarkson/rutgers telnet/ftp, and UMN gopher clients readily availale, what a bargain! Craig L. Smith or Dep't of Environmental Sciences : School of Marine Science Virginia Inst. of Marine Science : College of William and Mary Gloucester Point VA 23062 : (804) 642-7246 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 11:49:26 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Paper 11 Baubles for Liberal Arts Students The second book by Sheila Tobias is also worth looking at: Revitalizing Undergraduate Science: Why some Things Work and Most Don't Other important works include: America's Academic Future : A report of the Presidential Young Investigator Colloquium on U.S. Engineering, Mathematics, and Science Education for the Year 2010 and Beyond. (1992) obtainable from NSF Report on the National Science Foundation Disciplinary Workshops on Undergraduate Education (1989) obtainable from NSF An Exploration of the Nature and Quality of Undergraduate Education in Science, Mathematics and Engineering - AReport of the National Advisory Group of Sigma Xi, The Scientific Research Society (1989) supported by the NSF and Jhonson Foundation obtainable from Sigma Xi Entry Level Undergraduate courses in Science, Mathematics and Engineering: and Investment in Human Resourses An Initiative of Sigma Xi, the Scientific Research Society, Committee on Science,Mathematics and Engineering Education (1990) supported by NSF and the Johnson Foundation obtainable from Sigma Xi Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 16:03:43 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Discussion of Paper 12 begins In-Reply-To: <9308041303.AA11956@umd5.umd.edu> Answers to Short Questions on Paper 12 were emailed early in the morning of August 4, prior to Tom O'Haver's official opening of the discussion on Paper 12. Carolyn S. Judd and Robert G. Ford Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 16:40:25 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Cooperative Learning - Paper 12 In-Reply-To: <9308041450.AA20417@umd5.umd.edu> On August 4, 1993, Dr. Lisa Kintner shared her answers to the questions posed by the authors of Paper 12. Her message was so full of good ideas that the authors of Paper 12 are each submitting a reply to her. I endorse the concept of cooperative learning, which is the goal of using the network. Having the networked-computers so that everyone received all messages made for a different atmosphere than just a lab filled with computers. A real sharing did take place. I can tell you that several of the students never did really buy the idea of sharing or cooperation. Can you share with us some of the ways that you encouraged team work for those who do not understand about working in teams? The experiment that simulated a research project sounds great. Can you furnish a few more details about what type project was involved? Hurrah for you for trying to tackle the fear of Organic Chemistry during the general chemistry course. Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 17:28:10 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Paper 12 Answers to Authors' Questin In-Reply-To: <9308041450.AA20417@umd5.umd.edu> >From Robert Ford, co-author, Paper 12 I'm very interested in Lisa Kinter's message to us today about the value of collaborative teamwork for the non-experts in our classrooms. I think I liked best the reference to "non-experts" for with Carolyn's chemistry class I was clearly the non-expert of the group. Although I became involved with the chemistry class in the Macintosh lab as a part of my assignment to assist faculty in all departments use the facility, I became really fascinated with what Carolyn was doing as I realized how she valued the electronic network, conferencing and written class discussion. I'm an English teacher, specializing in composition instruction. Collaborative learning has been a major support for the theory of how we teach writing for the last few years (as those of you with friends in your English departments probably already know). Ever since I began teaching I've relied on "peer responses," "group projects," and "class discussions" to help my students learn to be better writers. All of these activities were based on hoping that by going through these paces the students would learn more about the complications of audience, about how multiple readers read a text differently. That these goals are hot topics in the academic discussion of English scholars made a focus on collaborative activity all the more important:it was one of the ways that freshman English and professional English scholars related to each other. As much as I've valued collaborative work, though, I have to confess that I have grave doubts about it. I know that I may preach for the need for students to discover their own voices by working through information on their own, but I also know that I think I know the "best" ways for them to discover their own true selves. And -- it's just hard for them to discover what I think is "best" on their own. Sometimes--usually--they discover something else, something that they think is better. When I let a collaborative group work on a project, I have to make myself stay out of things as much as possible, to encourage the group members to pull together. Sometimes there are problems, when a group of students are un-equally matched, when a group of non-experts contains too great a range of possible non-experts for the group to function successfully. Then, I have to reenter the picture and give direction. I alsom have to will myself to avoid giving too much direction and thereby turn the group into less a collaborative group and more a group performing the tricks I've set out. Dr. Kintner's comment that "helping them to see teamwork as a means of learning is perhaps the hardest part" really hits home with my experiences teaching writing. Sometimes a group sees my assignment as busy work to be completed as soon as possible. They view possible instances of confusion as annoying interruptions. I view these confusions as moments when thinking can occur, when students can make themselves use their brains to figure out what to do. I often find myself exerting much more energy and attention to a class involved in some collaborative project than to a class in which I'm carefully directing things upfront. In the collaborative class, my directing role is I think more crucial--and it's harder, for I have to direct and encourage the students almost invisibly, so that they continue to have to work themselves. I do think that using an electronic network, whether in a class in real time or over a network (I have most experience with a modem-based distance education program) can help encourage the collaborative process. Eachg student is made a little bit more equal, for each can be more or less anonymous. Those who would hesitate to participate due to shyness, language problems, cultural reasons, or other reasons can sometimes (or more times?) participate more fully. The teacher is more hidden, for his or her voice is just one more message. Whether in a traditional classroom or over a network, though, collaboration seems to work best when the goal of the activity is clearly assigned, when the range of possible results is somewhat limited and the teacher has carefully thought out what should be that range. Doing this planning is difficult; I know how difficult when teaching English. What impressed me with Carolyn's chemistry class is how she asked students to use the software we had to conduct miniature experiments or analyses and then publicize their results. Each questionshe sent over PacerForum allowed for a small moment of collaboration to occur. Granted, I don't think that all of the students fully valued the positive effects of these activities; Carolyn and I are both aware of the pitfalls. However, when I saw students talking to each other about what they were doing over the network, or saw them hunched infront of one computer screen , looking at a simulation and trying to figure out how to analyze it, well, I think I was looking at real learning. Since I'm not a chemist, I can't really say what it is that they were learning, I admit, but as a teacher I know I can recognize thinking when it is occurring. This project was exciting too --mostly because it helped me think about how I use classroom collaboration in traditional classrooms or in my own computer-based courses (which I teach in a same room Carolyn used and over the modem in our distance education program). Dr. Kintner also refers to a problem in using more collaborative methds of teaching when she mentions that "the greatest barrier to change is style." I'm now working to encourage faculty in history, political science, psychology, marketing, and art history to use the Co-op. Faculty members who have never used computers in their classrooms come to the computers with the idea, often, that the computers will deliver information to their students. They view the computers as a lecture-enhancing tool. When I try to suggest that the network will allow for their students to discover aspects of the information they need to learn by working together, some of the faculty members seem alarmed. However, enough seem interested and curious; this fall we will be experimenting with a new group of collaborators. Yippee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 17:16:12 PST From: "Edward H. Piepmeier" Subject: paper 11, formula display Tom O'Haver writes: >1. One way is to use three lines for each line of >"chemistry":> > -2 > H SO HPO > 2 4 4 This works fine so long as the formula is on a separate line, but I have seen it scrambled when the author's margins and the reader's margins are different. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 21:05:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 12 - Discussion and Questions In Section 6.6 of your paper you ask: > How much material can be cut from a course without discrediting > the course? In your paper you stated: > Obviously, not as much material can be covered with this question and > answer format. * 1. What textbook and workbook did you use? * * 2. Which chapters were covered and which not covered? * What fraction of the total material was covered? * * 3. Considering what you covered, how well do you think these students * would perform: * * a. on one of the standard ACS organic examinations? * * b. The graduate record or MCAT chemistry examination? * * c. Placement examinations given at some graduate schools? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald Rosenthal Department of Chemistry Clarkson University ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 21:07:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Start of Discussion Carolyn Judd mentioned that her answers to questions for Paper 12 were sent out before the official announcement to begin discussion was received. Discussion is supposed to begin at 8 AM Eastern Daylight Saving Time on the day designated for the beginning of discussion of the paper. Frequently, messages are received just a few minutes after they are sent. However, sometimes there are delays somewhere in the network. From the time indicated on the dateline of Tom O'Haver's messages it is clear he is sending out his messages on time. However, his and other messages sometimes experience delays. Authors and participants are urged to begin discussion on or after 8 AMEDT on the designated day and NOT to wait for Tom's message which is merely designed to be a reminder. This message is being posted at 9:20 PM (21:20 PM) on August 4. Don Rosenthal ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 01:06:31 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Paper 12 - Discussion and Questions In-Reply-To: <9308050113.AA23945@umd5.umd.edu> On Wed, 4 Aug 1993, Donald Rosenthal wrote: > In Section 6.6 of your paper you ask: > > > How much material can be cut from a course without discrediting > > the course? > > In your paper you stated: > > Obviously, not as much material can be covered with this question and > > answer format. > > * 1. What textbook and workbook did you use? MCMURRY, ORGANIC CHEMISTRY, 3RD EDITION > * > * 2. Which chapters were covered and which not covered? IN TWO SEMESTERS, WE COVER CHAPTERS 1-23, 25-27. OUR GOAL IS TO INCREASE THE COVERAGE TO INCLUDE THE OMITTED 5 CHAPTERS: CARBOHYDRATES, LIPIDS, NUCLEIC ACIDS, PERICYCLIC REACTIONS, AND SYNTHETIC POLYMERS) > * What fraction of the total material was covered? > FROM 1/3 TO 1/2 OF THE TIME WAS SPENT ON VERY BASIC MECHANISMS FROM EACH CHAPTER. THEN THOSE REACTIONS THAT REINFORCED THE BASIC MECHANISMS WERE EMPHASIZED. PROBABLY 1/4 OF EACH CHAPTER RECEIVED LITTLE EMPHASIS. REACTIONS THAT PRODUCED TRICKY OR UNEXPECTED RESULTS WERE NOT EMPHASIZED. FOR INSTANCE, WE DID NOT COVER THE CANNIZZARO REACTION. I KNOW THAT SOME MATERIAL MUST BE OMITTED, EVEN IN A REGULAR LECTURE STYLE COURSE; I AM SOMEWHAT UNEASY ABOUT MY CHOICES OF WHAT TO OMIT. * > * 3. Considering what you covered, how well do you think these students > * would perform: > * > * a. on one of the standard ACS organic examinations? ON EVERY EXAM, I INCLUDED AT LEAST 3 MORE COMPLEX QUESTIONS DIRECTLY BASED ON THE ACS ORGANIC EXAMINATIONS.(USUALLY THESE WERE NOT MULTIPLE CHOICE FORMAT, BUT OPEN ANSWER). THESE WERE OFTEN THE HARDEST QUESTIONS FOR MY STUDENTS.HOWEVER, SOME OF MY STUDENTS DID WELL ON THESE QUESTIONS. BUT THE MAJOR ACHIEVEMENT OF THIS SPRING WAS THAT NEARLY ALL MY STUDENTS TRIED TO WORK ALL THE PROBLEMS, INSTEAD OF SKIPPING THE HARDER QUESTIONS. > * b. The graduate record or MCAT chemistry examination? > * MANY OF MY STUDENTS ARE SUCCESSFUL CONDIDATES FOR MEDICAL SCHOOL, DENTAL SCHOOL, PHYSICIANS ASSISTANT PROGRAMS, AND NURSING SCHOOL.FOR MANY OF THEM, THIS MEANT SUCCESSFUL RESULTS ON THE MCAT EXAM. > * c. Placement examinations given at some graduate schools? > AT LEAST ONE OF MY STUDENTS HAS BEEN ACCEPTED IN A PH D. PROGRAM IN BIOCHEMISTRY. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- THESE ARE GREAT QUESTIONS THAT REFLECT WHAT I OFTEN STRUGGLE WITH. THE STUDENTS ENTERING THE SECOND SEMESTER OF ORGANIC CHEMISTRY ARE VERY GOOD STUDENTS, WHO ARE EXTREMELY MOTIVATED. MY GOAL IS TO HELP THEM ACQUIRE A FOUNDATION, AND TO CUT DOWN THEIR FRUSTRATION LEVEL. I AM CONVINCED THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE STUDENTS AT THIS LEVEL SHOULD DO WELL IN THIS COURSE. I BELIEVE THAT THE INVOLVEMENT OF STUDENTS ON THE NETWORKED COMPUTERS RAISED THE STUDENTS TO A HIGHER DEGREE OF CHEMICAL MATURITY. THE QUESTIONS ON MY EXAMS WERE MORE SOPHISTICATED THAT IN PRIOR YEARS. Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 08:17:03 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Start of Discussion >Carolyn Judd mentioned that her answers to questions for Paper 12 >were sent out before the official announcement to begin discussion was >received. > >Discussion is supposed to begin at 8 AM Eastern Daylight Saving Time on >the day designated for the beginning of discussion of the paper. >Frequently, messages are received just a few minutes after they are sent. >However, sometimes there are delays somewhere in the network. From the >time indicated on the dateline of Tom O'Haver's messages it is clear >he is sending out his messages on time. However, his and other messages >sometimes experience delays. > >Authors and participants are urged to begin discussion on or after 8 AMEDT >on the designated day and NOT to wait for Tom's message which is merely >designed to be a reminder. > >This message is being posted at 9:20 PM (21:20 PM) on August 4. > I guess the net is faster than the speed of light -- my receipt time is 21:07!! Presumably my server's closck is out. >Don Rosenthal >ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 10:55:15 -0400 From: JOHN WOOLCOCK Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Cooperative Learning - Paper 12 Carolyn Sweeny Judd writes: >I endorse the concept of cooperative learning, which is the goal of using >the network. Having the networked-computers so that everyone received >all messages made for a different atmosphere than just a lab filled with >computers. A real sharing did take place. I can tell you that several of >the students never did really buy the idea of sharing or cooperation. Can >you share with us some of the ways that you encouraged team work for >those who do not understand about working in teams? One way to use and promote teamwork or cooperative learning is in a lab course. Many of the lab experiments in our introductory chemistry course (and I suspect at other institutions as well) are done with the students broken into groups of two. This is sometimes necessary due to the logistics of the procedure (clock reactions, thermochemistry, etc.) and other times it is needed because of the length of the exercise. I also occasionally have the students pool their data and do a post-lab discussion of the results as recommended by Robert Ricci and Mauri Ditzler in their excellent article in J. Chem. Educ. 1991, p. 228. I have also recently been asking my students to finish their report sheets and hand them in before the lab period is over. This also forces cooperative learning by making the students rely on me and each other to help them answer them calculations and questions posed in the lab manual. This approach is not without its obvious drawbacks. Is it easy to see that copying of the better student reports in the group is easy in this setting. It is also been my observation that the poorer students paired with better partners will do not do as well if their partner misses lab and they must join another group, if they do it on their own or they are paired with someone else. However, I have also noticed that in many cases the better student will also explain in detail to their partner how to do a calculation or answer a question. Thus both will benefit. As the old saying goes: if you want to learn something well, teach it to someone else. While I have been using these techniques in my lab courses I have not been completely convinced that I am carrying them off in the best way possible. But, the idea of using cooperative learning more effectively, particularly in lab, has intrigue me enough to do some digging into this subject. Particularly since I am going to participate in a "reflective teaching" project here at IUP that will in part emphasize this aspect of teaching. Anyway, here are few resources that I have gathered on this subject that might be of value to others interested in this approach: 1. "Cooperative Learning in the Undergraduate Laboratory" by M. E. Smith, C. C. Hinkley, G. L. Volk. in J. Chem. Educ., 1991, p. 413. 2. "Cooperative Learning:JIncreasing College Faculty Instructional Productivity" by D. W. Johnson, R. T. Johnson, K. A. Smith. Available for $17 from ASHE-ERIC Higher Education Reports, George Washington University, One Dupont Circle, Suite 630, Washington, D.C. 20036-1183. Telephone: (202) 296-2597. 3. Collaborative Learning Workshop, Sept. 17-18, Penn State Continuing Education, 409 Keller Conference Center, University Park, PA, 16802-1304. fax: (814) 865-3749 4. Cooperative Learning: Theory and Practice. A symposium at the National ACS Meeting, Washington D.C., August 21-26, 1994. Symposium chairs: William R. Robinson and Susan Nurrenbern, Purdue University. John C. Woolcock Chemistry Department Indiana University of PA Indiana, PA 15705 Internet: WOOLCOCK@grove.iup.edu Bitnet: WOOLCOCK@IUP ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 13:21:00 EST From: "DR. LISA KINTNER CHEMISTRY DEPARTMENT, UPJ, JOHNSTOWN PA" Subject: Cooperative Learning -- Paper 12 In my reply to Carolyn Sweenney Judds and Robert G. Ford's questions for paper 12 yesterday, I mentioned that I have developed exercises that I hope would foster Cooperative learning. >I've developed problem sets for my general chemistry classes with >very complex, long, and laborious problems which the students must >solve as teams. I create the teams based on class performance so >as to get a mix of abilities in each group. I give them a week to >work the problems and schedule in one class period in which the >teams can work on the problem. ...I've also tried this same approach >as a lab project-- simulating the >environment of a research group. >It worked best in that >environment. Each student performed one >small portion of the >experiment. They can only draw conclusions >when all of the data >and results are combined. This received very >positive response. I'm enclosing (in a separate file: "Experiment that Simulated Research") exerpts from the "experiment that simulated a research project". In the General Directions I attempt to explain the colaboratice of "teamwork" aspect of the exercise and I make a point about the distinction between colaboration and copying (a problem I wish I didn't have to deal with). I try to include some back-gound on the descriptive chemistry (still lacking to some extent in the text books) . I keep the experimental procedure simple. As you will note, it's rather "cook-book". My hope is that this will draw their focus toward observation. The directions for the final "Group Conclusion" are the key, if you will, to the cooperative effort. I've used this set of experiments twice. The second time (this summer) worked especially well. I had a small class (22) and the group dynamics were especially good. Everyone was responsible for all of the material for the exam. This inducement may have helped foster additional colaboration. I have to admit that the hardest part (after I've finished writing up the experiments and prepping all of the solutions) is to stand back, keep my hands behind my back and coach, ...but not give them the answers. I guess all of us who attempt to foster collaborative work encounter this difficulty. Robert Ford said it nicely: >When I let a collaborative group work on a project, I have to make >myself stay out of things as much as possible, to encourage the >group members to pull together. I've experienced many of the same dificulties Robert Ford mentions: >Sometimes--usually--they discover something else, something that >they think is better. [or] when a group of students are un-equally >matched, when a group of non-experts contains too great a range of >possible non-experts for the group to function successfully. The two biggest obstacles that I face are: 1) Capable students who are affraid that other team members will sit back and let just one person do the work and "lazy" (less capable) students that *do* sit back and watch. I have anticipated that one (cf General Directions). When I circulate during the class exercise I make sure I "check in" on both of these individuals to see what they are up to. I try (not always successfully) to entice the less capable ones and suggest to the "masochist" that she/he delegate some responsibility. 2) The groups "discover something else, something that >they think is better". So I ask the questions: "Have you considered the possibility that ...?" or "How does that related to ...?" or "Does this *really* explain your experimental observations?" I think you get the idea. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. (Sometimes, as parents we succeed in fostering self-reliance and independence in our children; sometimes we aren't as successful.) John Wolcock (WOOKCOCK@IUP.BITNET) posted some good references on the idea of using cooperative learning more effectively. Any others? Lisa Kintner Department of Chemistry University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown Johnstown, PA KINTNER@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 13:23:00 EST From: "DR. LISA KINTNER CHEMISTRY DEPARTMENT, UPJ, JOHNSTOWN PA" Subject: Paper 12 -- Experiment that Simulated a Research Project The following text is excerpted from the material I distribute to my students in the Experiment that simulates a research project. PROBLEM SET 2 May 17, 1993 GENERAL DIRECTIONS: This lab experiment will also count as a lecture assignment and will be done as a team project. The class will be divided into four teams (4 to 5 students); each team will work on one aspect of a larger problem. At the end of the lab period each team will report its results to the class. You will find that you will need to use all of the chemical knowledge and expertise that you have accumulated thus far this semester ( and before that ) in order to complete this project effectively. Don't discount your good intuition. Be daring and use the index and read ahead in your text book. Sometimes it takes a little extra research and some creative thinking to solve the problem. After all, chemistry is "detective work". Chemistry is also "team work". All of these projects could be completed by a single individual. *However*, your learning experience is greatly enhanced if you work cooperatively as a team. Note, however, that there is a difference between working as a team to solve a problem (be it from the book or a laboratory experiment) and choosing one person to solve the problem for the whole team. It is *understood* that you will divide the responsibilities and work as a team. Each team will examine a different kind of equilibrium. Within each team you will divide into smaller groups (one or two students). Each group will carry out one experiment in which the effect of stress (either by the addition of excess reagent or by the removal of a reagent) applied to a system at equilibrium will be examined. Make observations for each set of reactions you examine. When all of the experiments are complete, regroup with the other members of your team. In order to draw a conclusion about the equilibria which you have examined (and no lab is any good without a conclusion), you will need to work collectively to pool your data, note trends and deviations and respond to the comments under Group Conclusion. Once your group has reached a conclusion decide on a strategy to report the data to the class (ie- Report to Class). Elect a spokesperson and plan a really great presentation. You will do the experiments during the lab period on Tuesday, May 18. Lab will not begin until 10:00 AM Tuesday You are encouraged to meet briefly before that time to distribute responsibilities among team members. Data sheets are provided; however, you are encouraged to record your observations, data and results in your lab notebook. You are also expected to study the procedure carefully ahead of time. Most of the equipment you will need will be provided. All of the solutions have been prepared. Be sure to bring your safety goggles. Note carefully the safety precautions for the experiment you are to perform. Be it your regular lab session or a class exercise, safety is a must. The exercise is worth 25 points and consists of two parts. Part 1 (worth 14 points) includes your data, observations and a summary of the team's conclusions (all the points under Group Conclusion). These are due in class Wednesday, May 19, 1993. As usual, submit the written work on 81/2 x 11 paper and use ink or pencil. Fold the paper in half along the long edge with the back facing outward; write your name, the course name, number and meeting time and the date of submission on the outside (like the cover to a book). Part 2 (worth 11 points) comes from the presentation to the class. Every member of the team will receive the same number of points; therefore it is in everyone's best interest to work cooperatively towards the final conclusion. You may use transparencies, or any other visuals (see Dr. Kintner for assistance). The group presentations will be given as the end of the lab period. Each presentation may last no more than 10 minutes; be thorough but be concise! Finally, look over all of the experiments and think about them in the context of the lecture material. A complete solution set including data sheets from the experiments will be placed on reserve in the library by late afternoon, Tuesday. A final note regarding Academic Integrity. Just as there is a difference between working as a team to solve a problem and expecting one person to solve the problem for the whole team, there is also a difference between submitting a Group Conclusion written in your own words and choosing to submit exactly the same summary (word-for-word) as one or more other members of the same team. Duplicated answers in the Group Conclusion will result in a grade of zero (0) for Part 2 for the entire team. STRESSES APPLIED TO SYSTEMS AT EQUILIBRIUM INTRODUCTION In this set of experiments you will study changes made on systems already at equilibrium. By applying LeChatelier's principle it should be possible to predict the direction which the system will follow as a result of the applied stress. The experiments will serve to confirm your predictions. BACKGROUND TO THE EXPERIMENTS A SOLUBILITY EQUIIBRIA When an ionic compound dissolves in water, the compound dissociates into its constituent ions which are randomly distributed throughout the solution. For example, in a saturated solution of potassium nitrate the solution contains only potassium and nitrate ions. Each ion is surrounded by a cluster of water molecules which are more or less tightly bound (by intermolecular forces) to the ion. That is, the ion is 'hydrated' or 'aquated'. In a sparingly soluble salt, the forces of attraction between the ions are stronger than those between the ions of very soluble salts. Most sparingly soluble salts do not completely dissociate. Rather, they interact with one another to form aggregates (complexes) or react with water to form new species. You will examine the solubility of two sparingly soluble salts: calcium hydroxide and lead bromide and a very soluble salt: sodium chloride. The role of a common ion in the solubility of all three salts can be explained in terms of Le Chatelier's principle. The solubility of a sparingly soluble salt can be affected by changing the composition of the salt through a chemical reaction. B COMPLEX ION EQUILIBRIA The equilibria of complex ions of two transition metals will be examined. By definition, a complex ion is a metal atom or, more often, an electron deficient metal ion, with Lewis bases (the ligand) attached. Because the ion is electron deficient, it is a Lewis acid. The bond between the metal ions and the ligand is called a coordinate covalent bond. Most of the equilibria that will be examined will be between the aquated metal ion in which water molecules (usually six) are attached to the metal and some other complex ion of the metal (a ligand other than water). Generally a distinct color change accompanies the change in equilibrium. The first equilibrium involves the formation of a deep red iron thiocyanate complex. Two nickel complexes will be prepared. The starting solution, nickel(II) nitrate is really hexaaquanickel(II) nitrate when dissolved in water. The complex formed is hexaamminenickel(II). C ACID BASE EQUILIBRIA You will examine three different equilibria: the protonation of ammonia, the dissociation of acetic acid and the protonation- deprotonation of an indicator, methyl orange. (Methyl orange indicator is red at pH 4.0 and yellow at pH 6.0.) In each case, the equilibrium of the system is disrupted. By application of Le Ch telier's principle, the direction of the shift to re-establish equilibrium can be predicted. **SAMPLE OF EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDURE: **NOTE: the special characters haven't been edited (subcripts, **superscirpts, etc) I think you get the picture. B COMPLEX ION EQUILIBRIA PROCEDURE 1) Prepare a stock solution of the bright red complex ion [Fe(SCN)]2+ by mixing 10 mL each of 0.005 M iron(III) chloride and 0.005 M KSCN solutions. Pour about 4 mL of the red stock solution into each of four test tubes. Label the test tubes as 1, 2, 3 and 4. Test tube 1 is your control . To test tube 2, add about 1 mL of 0.1 M FeCl3. To test tube 3, add about 1 mL of 0.1 M KSCN. To test tube 4, add AgNO3 solution dropwise until a change becomes evident. On the answer sheet: a) record carefully all of the color changes observed, b) write the balanced equation for each equilibrium and c) explain what you observed in terms of LeChatelier's principle. 2) Add 10 drops of 0.1 M Ni(NO3)2 to a clean test tube. Add 6 M NH3 dropwise until the color changes and intensifies. Add 6 M HCl dropwise until the color changes once again. On the answer sheet: a) record carefully all of the color changes observed, b) write the balanced equation for each equilibrium and c) explain what you observed in terms of LeChatelier's principle. 3) Place 5 mL of stock CoCl2(aq) solution in a large test tube. Slowly add 10 mL of concentrated HCl. Note any color changes. Divide the solution between two test tubes. Add 5 mL of distilled water to one test tube. Note any color changes. Add AgNO3 solution dropwise to the second test tube until a change becomes evident. Note any color changes. On the answer sheet: a) record carefully all of the color changes observed, b) write the balanced equation for any chemical reactions that took place, c) write the balanced equation for each equilibrium and d) explain what you observed in terms of LeChatelier's principle. ** Similar procedures for the other experiments. OBSERVATIONS AND DATA: In your lab notebook: a) note carefully what you observed, b) write the balanced equation for any chemical reactions that took place and c) explain what you observed in terms of LeChatelier's principle. Use the data sheets as a guide. GROUP CONCLUSION: Within your team you have examined one of three different types of equilibria and the effects of a stress applied to each system. Use LeChatelier's principle to explain the observed shift in the equilibrium composition of each system as a result of the change. Describe the chemical composition of the species formed as a result of the change. Be sure to comment on the interrelated nature of the different parts of the experiment or problem. Note that the chemical reactions are as important as the chemical principles. Each team member must turn in a summary of the Group Conclusion. REPORT TO CLASS: Everyone will have a copy of the problems and laboratory experiments. Summarize the purpose and procedure of the experiment performed; briefly describe your observations (including balanced equations) and explain them in terms of LeChatelier's principle. Can you generalize about the types of equilibria examined? Visuals (in the form of overhead transparencies, blackboard use, poster board, etc) provide an effective means of transmitting this type of information. Lisa Kintner Department of Chemistry University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown Johnstown, PA KINTNER@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 16:01:04 -0400 From: HARRY PENCE Subject: Cooperative Learning -- Paper 12 This discussion has prompted several thoughts, which don't seem to fit together very well, so please excuse a little splatter thinking. The question of why organic is so hard is one that has fascinated me for a long time. It seems to me ther are several possible reasons. First, introductory chemistry is very mathematical, and so people who like (or are good at) math usually do very well. Thus, students who have done extremely well in introductory chem are sometimes totally lost in organic. This creates a general attitude that, "He (or she) got an A in intro chem, and if he or she can't do organic, it must be impossible!). Most majors build from year to year on the same types of skills. As you perfect that set of skills, the course becomes more challenging. Chemistry is the only field I know where the skills essential for survival in the first year course are quite different from those in the second year of the program. Of course, the joke is, by the time they reach Phys.Chem. we're back requiring the math skills that are more like general than organic. A second factor may be the fact that students have learned in their freshman year that survival in biology requires considerable brute-force memorization. When they come to organic, they try to do the same thing, but there is so much material, that this doesn't work. You must learn to organize, or clump, ideas into related parcels, not memorize separate facts. By the time some students realize this, it's too late to recover and pass the cumulative exams. Few organic students have encountered a truly cumulative course before, and this is probably a contributing factor. Some of the best of them did very well in intro chem (and most of their other courses) by cramming the night before the exam. That works OK for the first few exams in organic, but by the time they're convinced that it doesn't work, it's too late to catch up with the material. As I noted in an earlier post, I've been using cooperative learning very successfully in my general chemistry course. I thnk the approach can be useful in organic, if only by forcing students to discuss what they are doing, so that they don't fall into some of the traps I've mentioned above. By the way, several people have asked for information about what I do in general chemistry, and I responded off line. I have learned,however, that my e-mail was down (again), so if you asked and didn't receive, please let me know so that I can try again. Harry ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Harry E. Pence BITNET: PENCEHE@SNYONEVA | | Professor of Chemistry PHONE: 607-436-3179 | | SUNY Oneonta FAX: 607-436-2107 | | Oneonta, NY 13820 | ____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 16:44:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 12 - Something Has Got to Give Paper 12 - Discussion Re: SOMETHING HAS GOT TO GIVE > Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 01:06:31 -0500 > From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd > Subject: Re: Paper 12 - Discussion and Questions > On Wed, 4 Aug 1993, Donald Rosenthal wrote: > In Section 6.6 of your paper you ask: > > > How much material can be cut from a course without discrediting > > the course? > > In your paper you stated: > > Obviously, not as much material can be covered with this question and > > answer format. > I'm not an organic chemist. As a student I took organic chemistry many years ago when the texts were half the size they are now. I'm not surprised that some students are intimidated and cowed by the size of some modern textbooks. There has been a lot of new material added and suggested. Very little has been deleted. (David Brooks did suggest how some things could be deleted.) We've talked in this conference about new innovations (additions) - molecular modelling, quantum mechanical calculations, spreadsheets, electronic mail, other software. In other fields sometimes a different approach is taken. For example, many colleges teach courses in Shakespere's plays in which students read all or most of the plays in a single semester. I remember hearing about one school which offered a course which covered only one of Shapespere's plays - maybe it was Hamlet - I'm not sure. Many students believed they got more out of studying one play thoroughly than they got out of studying many plays superficially. I'm not advocating that only one or two chapters of a book be covered. To some extent introductory courses should be surveys. Such courses can be very difficult and not always enjoyable. You mention that you cover twenty-six chapters and you're considering adding five additional chapters in a one-year course. That must be about one chapter a week. I imagine that's not unusual in organic chemistry. The situation isn't very different in general chemistry. I wonder if some pruning of our courses isn't needed. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 20:04:33 -0500 Reply-To: Carolyn Sweeney Judd From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Cooperative Learning -- Paper 12 In-Reply-To: <9308052001.AA12041@umd5.umd.edu> On August 5, 1992, Harry E. Pence wrote: > As I noted in an earlier post, I've been using cooperative learning >very successfully in my general chemistry course. I thnk the approach can be >useful in organic, if only by forcing students to discuss what they are >doing, >so that they don't fall into some of the traps I've mentioned above. I LOVE YOUR COMMENT ABOUT FORCING STUDENTS TO DISCUSS WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN THE CHEMIISTRY LAB. WE KNOW THAT THIS DISCUSSION OF AN EXPERIMENT ASSISTS IN REAL UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE IT BRINGS TO THE FOREFRONT THE PIECES THAT THE STUDENTS MAY NOT UNDERSTAND (OR MAY MISUNDERSTAND.) THIS ALSO WORKS FOR LECTURE. SETTING UP A COMPUTER CONFERENCE WITHIN A COMPUTER LAB FORCED THE STUDENTS TO DISCUSS CONCEPTS. THERE WAS NO GRADE GIVEN FOR ANY OF THE INPUT FROM THE STUDENTS. BUT IT BECAME OBVIOUS SOON THAT THE PRINTED COPY OF THE SESSION FOR THE DAY WOULD CONTAIN NOTHING IF THE STUDENTS DID NOT CONTRIBUTE. BUT ONCE THE STUDENTS BEGAN TO PARTICIPATE (WHICH HAPPENED THE VERY FIRST DAY), THEY REALIZED THAT THEIR "LECTURE NOTES" FOR THE DAY WOULD CONTAIN CLARIFICATION OF MATERIAL IN A VERY PERSONAL WAY. AS A SPECIAL BENEFIT, AS ROBERT G. FORD SAYS, THERE SEEMS TO BE AN ETHIC THAT GROWS FROM THE COMPUTER CONFERENCE. DURING THE ENTIRE SEMESTER, I NEVER HAD A STUDENT SIMPLY COPY SOMEONE ELSE'S WORK AND TURN IN IT AS HIS(HER)OWN. GIVEN THAT ONE OF THE PITFALLS OF COOPERATIVE LEARNING IS THE TENDENCY TO RECEIVE REPETETIVE RESULTS FROM MEMBERS OF THE TEAM, I FIND THAT THE CONFERENCING ETHIC IS JUST ANOTHER OF THE GREAT PLUSES OF COMPUTER CONFERENCING AS A LECTURE TOOL. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, GIVE LECTURE CONFERENCING A TRY -- YOU'LL LIKE IT! Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 20:26:32 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Cooperative Learning -- Paper 12 In-Reply-To: <9308052001.AA12041@umd5.umd.edu> THANK YOU, DR. HARRY E. PENCE, FOR YOUR ANALYSIS OF THE ORIGINS OF ORGANIC CHEMISTRY PHOBIA. YOUR POINTS ARE QUITE VALID. I WOULD APPRECIATE YOUR SHARING WITH ME THE GOOD RESULTS YOU HAVE HAD USING COOPERATIVE LEARNING IN THE CHEMISTRY LAB OF GENERAL CHEMISTRY. Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 20:34:58 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Paper 12 - Something Has Got to Give In-Reply-To: <9308052140.AA18155@umd5.umd.edu> DEAR DONALD ROSENTHAL, MAYBE I'M GETTING TOO BRAVE, BUT MAY I SUGGEST THAT IT THE TEXTBOOK THAT HAS TO GIVE? GREAT SOFTWARE LIKE ORGANIC REACTION MECHANISMS, BY MONTANA AND BUELL WOULD BE A TREMONDOUS FOUNDATION FOR AN ORGANIC COURSE, COUPLED WITH SOME FINE DATA BASES, LIKE THE SCHATZ INDEX OR SPECTRABOOK BY PAUL SCHATZ. DARE WE REALLY LOOK FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT -- AND BETTER! Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 20:42:35 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Paper 12 -- Experiment that Simulated a Research Project In-Reply-To: <9308051750.AA03521@umd5.umd.edu> DEAR DR. LISA KINTNER, THANK YOU FOR FORWARDING THE EXPERIMENT. I WILL TRY THIS TEAM APPROACH WITH ONE OF MY CLASSES IN THE FALL, AND THEN CORRESPOND WITH YOU ABOUT THE RESULTS. SOUNDS GREAT! Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 20:47:09 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Cooperative Learning - Paper 12 In-Reply-To: <9308051459.AA20666@umd5.umd.edu> DEAR DR. JOHN WOOLCOCK, THANK YOU FOR THE GREAT REFERENCES ON COOPERATIVE LEARNING. I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO ATTEND THE SEMINARS/ MEETINGS YOU ARE GOING TO PARTICIPATE IN. PERHAPS YOU CAN SHARE SOMETHING FROM THE MEETINGS WITH THOSE OF US WHO HAD TO REMAIN AT HOME. TOO BAD THERE ISN'T A COMPUTER CONFERENCE PORTION OF THE MEETINGS. Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 22:13:31 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Cooperative Learning -- Paper 12 In-Reply-To: <9308051733.AA02428@umd5.umd.edu> >From Robert Ford I just read the collaborative experiment that Lisa Kinter set today. I t made me think of a worry that teachers using collaborative learning often have (especially if they haven't really tried this technque in their classrooms)--and I say this because it seems to me that Dr. Kinter's explanation is so thorough that it avoids the pitfall I'm about to mention. It's the worry that a collaborative activity will mean that they, as teachers, won't be doing the main activity in the classroom. After all, if a class period is being filled with students talking to each other, then there's much less time for the focus to stay on the instructor at the front of the room. It may seem as if the teacher becomes absent, quiet in the classroom. However, for a collaborative activity to really work (as it creates an effective transfer and synthesis of information among these non-experts) there have to be clear goals and objectives. Establishing those beforehand is the teacher's role. Policing them (even in as subtle, inobtrusive way as possible) is the teacher's role in class. It would be so easy to say to a class, "Now, come on y'all (I write in Texas): let's collaborate!"-- but it wouldn't really work. The teacher would have to have already thought through the boundaries of the experiment, what might happen, what could absolutely not be allowed, what might be encouraged, what discouraged. It seems to me easier to just tell our students the truth we know in our heart . It's soooo much harder to structure an event to lead them to see our truth or their version/alteration of that truth. I was impressed with Dr. Kinter's assignment because it's so specific. She gave specific directions about the goals and working problems that the students would have to face. She anticipated interpersonal relationships--and all of their messiness. That anticipation was important, just as important as making sure that the technical parts of the experiment--solutions, procedures, safety, etc.--were all carried out properly. I notice these technical parts because that's the part of a collaborative project I have less experience in (as an English teacher) (though of course I require that a collaborative project produce a piece of writing that meets certain technical requirements: no major grammatical errors, an appropriate tone, audience, etc.; those are my controls). What I do as they are working is crucial. I often think it's what I don't do--or what I do--but do in such a way that nobody notices. I too find diplomatic ways to ask students to delegate duties./ I survey the room carefully to be sure that one team member is not becoming a dictator. I try to make everyone feel supported, all the while without seeming too involved in the project.It's a lot of work. There's a part of me that thinks before a collaborative project "well, this will be a day of rest for me; they'll do the thinking today." Instea, what I find is that I'm more exhausted after a day of collaboration; for I've had to be active while seeming passive. I've had to be a controlling, focused teacher, while all the while seeming to allow them to take care of themeselves. It's sort of like hosting a party and seeming to have fun but all the while worrying about the bags of ice left in the fridge. I love Dr. Kinter's image of the teacher "stand[ing] back, keep[ing] my hands behind my back and coach[ing] . . . but not giv[ing] them the answers. It's really an amazing thing to do. As I said last night, I do think that a network helps with this collaboration--for it helps the students talk to each other while breaking through the boundaries of person-hood: voice, shyness, etc. It also helps the instructor: through a network a teacher can participate adn observe without being seen. He or she can be anonymous and inconspicous to help keep the group projects on track. I feel less as if I'm snooping over someone's shoulder (even though I'm still of course snooping. Robert Ford Central College Houston Community College 1300 Holman Houston Tex 77004 (713)630-1830 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:10:32 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper 12 discussion 1. Carolyn wrote about lecture conferencing "IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, GIVE LECTURE CONFERENCING A TRY -- YOU'LL LIKE IT!" There are many ways to get students to learn. Carolyn has devised a very useful model. Here is included many fine ingredients that foster critical thinking development. These include giving students responsibility for their learning, developing forms of expression that are conducive to learning, accountability for more than exams, respect for peers as sources of information, engaging students fully during the "class time", and many others. These same ingredients can be incorporated into a variety of courses using a variety of class formats as appropriate to the goals of instruction, the ability of the instructor, given the available resources, and other practical considerations. Most important is that it is important to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING rather than maintain the status quo of passive students in neat rows in formal lecture classes. The power of Carolyn's method is that students are forced to extract and articulate explanations of phenomena in their own words. We all have the power to make this type of thing work for us and our students. ---------- 2. and Don wrote about "There has been a lot of new material added and suggested. Very little has been deleted. " I think that we are all hearing about the tyranny of the curriculum (S. Tobias). There will be a session at the next ACS meeting on physical chemistry curriculum. General chemistry curriculum is discussed frequently in the journals. NSF is concerned about the quality of entry level courses and their mission to a diverse student population. (Organic falls into the entry level definition as far as I can tell because it is taught in the second year of the chemistry curriculum.) Text books get bigger and bigger but my students still wear the same average hat size. This leaves us with the choice of surveying much of it at the rapid clip of 1 chapter per week or doing less chapters but more deeply. If we survey then what type of exam questions can we ask-- pure recall? Surely we cannot ethically expect students to do real thinking after such a poor superficial diet. I think that we are on the right track when we opt for less but do more. A few less topics will give time for students to digest information and integrate it into their past learning and prepare for future learning. Most important is to foster independent learning leading to lifetime learning. This instructor's dilemma is discussed very fully in a recent J.Chem Ed. article by Garafalo and LoPresti, May 1993 p 352. ------- and Harry wrote about " The question of why organic is so hard is one that has fascinated me for a long time." I too often wondered about this. It didn't seem so hard when I was a student back using the first edition of Morrison and Boyd. That was a beautiful book - so clear - so rational - so orderly compared to general chem which for me was still descriptive chem an not too much baby pchem. Perhaps it may be good to look at this from another angle. Students in Gen Chem are working at algorithms and there is always one right answer and the teacher dispenses knowledge like so much cake and candy - neatly wrapped and lined up in boxes called chapters. If you cross your t's and dot your i's in the right way you can be a success - well you need a bit of algebra too, and of course you must do some homework. The next step up is to organic and the algorithms are not so simple. Some creativity and insight is required. These are gained by a more mature approach to learning - something that most students are not ready to do. They try memorization and for many that works to get a B - remember the magic flash cards. If you memorize enough you can be very successful at multiple choice exams. Organic is hard because it requires students to be more grown up in their discipline. This is where Carolyn's method is most important - it gives students a way to grow intellectually toward higher order thinking skills. And as Harry said, "You must learn to organize, or clump, ideas into related parcels, not memorize separate facts." Doing cooperative learning in general chem as Harry describes helps prepare students for the more mature thinking that will be required in future courses. In pchem the pressure remains. The subject is more abstract and highly mathematical. Math skills of many students are notoriously poor and the ability to think abstractly is like going to the moon - a very energy intensive and impossible without the appropriate booster rockets. One result is that we go back to surveying topics shallowly and teaching algorithms for problem solving. Then Charlie and I wonder why the students don't understand what an excited state is. If they know they don't tell and if they don't know they hope no one will ask. They may not even know how to express it even if they had a glimmer of an idea of what it is. Of course this is not all students - but certainly enough of them to make a teacher prematurely gray or contribute to their high blood pressure. --------- Then Harry Ford wrote about misgivings about collaborative learning especially "I think I know the "best" ways for them .....And -- it's just hard for them to discover what I think is "best" on their own." This is very interesting. It represents the same thoughts that we all share. Sort of like -- they won't understand it unless I give them a polished finished product. After many years of giving away polished finished products and discovering that they had evaporated into thin air, because they certainly did not appear in the blue books at exam time, I prefer the rough hewn hard won products that my students produce on their own. They wear their own hand made ideas and look kind of funny at first but it isn't long before their ideas start to look good enough to wear in public. Doubts and hesitancy about using collaborative methods in chemistry and other disciplines are natural when there are so many profs who preach against it or when we are overwhelmed by our teaching large ( or many smaller) classes, etc. *** the torpedoes and full steam ahead. Let's get those little gray cells in or students' heads hopping out where we can see them and it doesn't hurt to applaud an especially good number when we see it. ------ Like Robert Ford, I think that Lisa Kinter hit the nail on the head with her collaborative learning exercise. He summarized the major points and pit falls in his most recent message. Nevertheless I think that many of us who try this must be prepared for the negative attitude of many colleagues and not let that turn us away from using this valuable technique in one or all sessions of a course. Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 09:25:22 -0400 From: HARRY PENCE Subject: Paper 12 Discussion Theresa makes so many good points, it's difficult to find something to add. Perhaps the best summary is a line that Johnson and Johnson (two of the cooperative learning gurus) often use. "Teachers must decide whether they are going to be a sage on the stage or a guide on the side." As the author of the papers makes clear, there are many skills a teacher must learn to use cooperative learning effectively, but the hardest is to let the student take control of his or her own learning. Especially in my upper level classes, where I use larger groups instead of just pairs, I usually go out for a drink at the beginning of the exercise. As long as I'm there, the students look at me and expect me to dash over and tell them what to do. The worst of it is that I WANT to step in; I can't stand to see students suffer, and besides, it makes me feel essential. Once they know I don't intend to help them, they begin really learning, not just absorbing what I've already digested for them. At that point, I can really help them, not substitute for their own efforts. Harry ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Harry E. Pence BITNET: PENCEHE@SNYONEVA | | Professor of Chemistry PHONE: 607-436-3179 | | SUNY Oneonta FAX: 607-436-2107 | | Oneonta, NY 13820 | ____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 08:02:34 -0600 From: "Douglas A. Coe" Subject: Responses to Short Questions for Paper 13 Short Questions for Paper 13 from Don Rosenthal: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. a. What sort of undergraduate Physical Chemistry course do you teach? I teach 1st and 2nd semester junior level Physcial Chemistry course for majors and a Survey of Physical Chemistry Course for mostly Environmental Engineering majors. I also teach on a less regular basis senior/graduate level courses in Thermodynamics, Kinetics, and Theoretical Chemistry. b. Do you teach physical chemistry to engineering as well as chemistry majors? The Physical Chemistry course mentioned above has a significant population of Petroleum Engineers and Metallurgical Engineers. The Survey of Physical Chemistry course has primarily Environmental Engineers with a smattering of Geological Engineers in it. c. Is diffusion and the diffusion equation normally covered in your course? Fick's 1st and 2nd laws are mentioned in discussing transport properties in the 2nd semester course. I think diffusion is an important physical process that our students should receive more exposure to than they probably do. One of the difficulties in treating diffision in more detail is dealing with the 2nd order partial differential diffusion equation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- 2.> The calculations were done on a 486 microcomputer with a math co- > processor using Borland's Quattro Pro 123 spreadsheet (version 4.0). a. To what sort of computing facilities do the students have access? How many students do you have? We have an undergraduate enrollment of ~1800 FTE. Our students have access to 6 microcomputer labs plus various other machines located around campus. Most of these labs have 10-20 386 and 486 machines in them. Some of these labs are open 24 hrs. Are they all familiar with Quattro Pro 123? I still enounter physical chemistry students who have not used a spreadsheet, but the number is declining each year. I set up an ~3 hr outside of class time self-paced tutorial, at which I'm present, for those students who are interested in Quattro Pro. We require students to do some of their physical chemistry lab reports on spreadsheets and we devote the first laboratory period to a tutorial on using Quattro Pro. We are in the middle of placing 486 computers in our freshmen lab, where they will be used for interfacing, etc. In the second lab of the semester, we have them import into Quattro Pro boiling point of water data that they collected with the interface in the first week of lab. They then use the Clausius-Clapeyron equation to calulate the barometric pressure. In this lab we introduce standard deivation, since they have 30 boiling points and barometric pressure to work with, having them use the spreadsheet to work through the formula and then compare their result with the built in standard deviation function in Quattro Pro. Finally they use Student's t-test to compare their calculated barometric pressure with a measured value. We will have them use Quattro Pro and Word Perfect throughout the rest of the year in this lab. Since all of our science and engineering majors take this lab, this will have a major impact on introducing students to computers and software. b. Is the development and use of the program assigned as a regular class assignment? See answer given immediately above. What text do you use and where in the text is diffusion considered? We have been using Noggle in the regular physical chemistry course and will be using Atkins in the Survey of Phyical Chemistry Course. Noggle treats diffusion in Chapter 9 on "Transport Properties" and Atkins treats diffusion in Chapter 24 on "Transport Properties". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. You ask some good questions. I'd be interested in your answers to these questions. > QUESTIONS: > 1. Are these sort of exercises of any pedagogical value? I think that having students develop a spreadsheet to do some particular calculation involves them in the calculation and the material to a degree that almost no other approach, short of writing a program would. > 2. What is the difference between what the student learns if they > have to construct the spreadsheet versus being given a working > spreadsheet of this model? The spreadsheet once constructed (or given a previously prepared spreadsheet template) provides a marvelous device for investigating changing parameters in some model. For example, I have had physical chemistry laboratory students collect data with a interface on the decrease in temperature with time at the center of a paraffin sphere and then use the a spreadsheet to compare their data with the analytic equation (which incidently is a rapidly converging power series solution) that they programed into the spreadsheet. The comparison is done visually (there are more precise ways), using the nearly instantaneous graphing capabilities of the spreadsheet. They vary the thermal conductivity of the parafin until the analytic and measured curves match and thus obtain an estimate of the thermal conductivity of paraffin. If I had provided them with a spreadsheet already containing the analytic solution, they would not have learned as much. > 3. Does the typical undergraduate chemistry student have enough > knowledge of spreadsheets to build this model. Is this class or > institution dependent? Is exposure to second order partial > differential equations a prerequisite? NO!!!! A fair amount of time has to be devoted to leading the students through the construction of the model. Actually, if the students have been using spreadsheets much, the limiting factor is not a knowledge of spreadsheets, but rather a lack of knowledge of the numerical techniques involved, e.g., finite difference solutions of differential equations. Of course introducing students to these numerical techiniques is one of the goals that I have in the first place. Students also do not initially know how to implement these numerical methods in a spreadsheet. These sorts of spreadsheet exercises should probably not be introduced until students have had a course in differential equations. The material is also probably intrinsically more interesting to engineering students than to pre-meds (here it is good to remember that Poiseuille was a physician). > 4. What is the relative educational value of exposing students to (1) > the diffusion equation, (2) numerical solutions of differential > equations, (3) an advanced spreadsheet exercise? (1) I think it is important to expose students to diffusion and the diffusion equation, since diffusion is a widespread physical process, that is often given short shrift in our courses because of the seemingly intractable mathematics. (2) Differential equations are even more ubiquitous. Many differential equations have analytic solutions only for special cases. Exposing students to general numerical solutions of these equations, should leave them with the impression that these equations can be practically solved for most situations and not just those special text book cases where analytic solutions are possible. (3) These advanced spreadsheet exericizes should leave the student, who has a only passing familiarity with spreadsheets, with the correct impression that spreadsheets are powerful tools for doing calulations. Many exercises that I orginally wrote BASIC programs to do, I have since redone on spreadsheets. Only where complicated branching/iterations are involved would I recommend programming over spreadsheets. > 5. Some effort is required by the student to construct the > spreadsheet described in this paper. Is exposing students to > numerical solutions of the diffusion equation on a spreadsheet > worth the effort? I think so (see the above answers for my reasons). I would be interested in seeing other's viewpoints on spreadsheets. Do others use spreadsheets in the manner that I have outlined in responding to these questions and as illustrated by the paper, i.e., are other teachers using spreadsheets to solve the differential equations that appear in kinetics, the Schroedinger equation, etc.? ************************************************************************* Short Questions for Paper 13 from Reed Howald: Can we get the figures into INDEX CHEMCONF >I realize that it works better to use anonymous FTP to transfer the GIF files, >but most of us now have UUDECODE and we need to use it enough to get rid of all >the bugs. I would like to get and view your figures this way. I'm not sure why this doesn't work for you. I'll see what I can do here. >While I am sending, I will add another short question. A second derivative is >curvature. With your initial conditions the values are always increasing and >the curvature is positive everywhere. How hard would it be to set up different >initial conditions to get both increasing and decreasing regions? The way I set up the spreadsheet, you would have to change the formulas in each of the cells representing pressure values at different positions and times in the membrane. This actually isn't too difficult, but is a nuisance. In retrospect a better approach would be to have that part of the IF statement in each cell reference an initial pressure in a single cell. Changing this initial pressure would then allow the spreadsheet to be initialized at any pressure. If the spreadsheet is initialized at some non-zero pressure and the pressure at the membrane boundries is set to a smaller pressure, then the plot of pressure versus position in the membrane is concave upward at every time and the curvature is always negative. To get a model where the curvature is both increasing and decreasing would require interfacing two membranes, i.e., would require adding a third boundry condition. This would require "reprogramming" the spreadsheet, but in principle would be no more difficult than setting up the original spreadsheet. If the pressure on the left of the left membrane was set to zero, the internal pressures in the left membrane initialized to zero, the pressure at the right of the left membrane and the left of the right membrane (they are the same because this is a common boundry) set to some positive value, the internal pressures in the right membrane set to this same positive value, and finally the pressure at the right of the right membrane set to some even higher positive value (confusing isn't it), then a plot of pressure versus membrane position across the two membranes would show an inflection point at the boundry between the membranes and the curvature would change from negative in the left membrane to positive in the right membrane (whew!!!). ************************************************************************* Short Questions for Paper 13 from Arthur M. Halpern: > How 'portable' is the exercise to other physical systems or examples? >That is, are students given several diffusion coefficients that apply to >different situations, or do (can) they calculate D to suit a particular system? The diffusion coefficient, the width of the membrane, the pressure or conccentrations (depending on the view point you want to take) at either the left or right face of the membrane, the distance step across the membrane, and the time step can all be varied by changing values in single cells and then recalculating the spreadsheet. Changing the diffusion coefficient would allow students to explore how differing diffusion coefficients would affect the rate of diffusion through the membrane. Or, in another example, students could explore the effect of changing either the distance or time steps and see how, when the step size becomes too large, the assumptions that allow the diffusion equation to be represented by a discrete finite difference algorithm break down. The diffusion coefficient could also be varied, allowing students to model experimental data and thus, using the model and the data, extract the experimental diffusion coefficient. Note, if you use the binary Quattro Pro 123 file that I provided, I did not add the pressures at the right side of the membrane. This is easy to do, just place the cell reference $E$6 in cell W18 and copy it from cell W19 to W258. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 11:57:56 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: paper13 discussion The following was extracted from the answers to Paper13 questions. >> 5. Some effort is required by the student to construct >> the spreadsheet described in this paper. Is exposing >> students to numerical solutions of the diffusion equation >> on a spreadsheet worth the effort? > I think so (see the above answers for my reasons). I > would be interested in seeing other's viewpoints on > spreadsheets. Do others use spreadsheets in the manner > that I have outlined in respondingto these questions and > as illustrated by the paper, i.e., are other teachers > using spreadsheets to solve the differential equations > that appear in kinetics, the Schroedinger equation, etc.? I was fascinated by Prof Coe's work with the diffusion equation. I had avoided teaching this because of the poor math skills of my students. The model presented by Prof. Coe appears to be very workable for students who have not had differential equations. The effort of creating a spreadsheet reinforces the practical approaches to solving difficult science math problems. It links the math to a real process and real graphs in a systematic set of bit sized units that most students should be able to understand. I'm ready to give this a try next semester. >> 4. What is the relative educational value of exposing >> students to (1) the diffusion equation, (2) numerical >> solutions of differential equations, (3) an advanced >> spreadsheet exercise? The major reason for exposing students to an advanced spreadsheet exercise is to teach them that they can do more and do it better than they ever imagined. It's very mind stretching. The diffusion equation is important especially for processes in cells. I would like to hear details of how it could be used in this way. I have read an earlier work by Prof. Coe on solving differential equations numerically in spreadsheet for kinetics - using consecutive first order reactions. J.Chem Ed. 64, 1987 p 497. The advantage of this pedogogical model as I see it is the large number of numerical experiments that students can try. This type of repetition - not possible with pencil and paper can lead to intellectual growth especiall when coupled to the 'coach' model discussed in Paper 12. Furthermore it is the more difficult problems that are more interesting. Why not get the students involved in these as early as possible. It's like Lisa Kintner's aspiring young archetect - a suitable difficult problem presented under appropriate conditions can open the door to students learning much more than we dared hope for or could foster under more agressive modes of instruction. >> I would be interested in seeing other's viewpoints on >> spreadsheets. As I may have mentioned earlier, at NU all pchem lab reports must be generated with word processors and spreadsheets. Last year I introduced a Mathcad exercise and it was very successfull for first order equilibrium and first order irreversible consecutive reactions. The first few weeks of the lab are hard because of the learning curves - pchem, lab, computers, and spreadsheets. But the students swim and I cheer them on. It works better than anything I ever did before. I am now trying to clarify my ideas and put this into perspective with respect to pedagogical principles. As Steve Lower pointed out one time it is important for students to know the goals and objectives of an exercise. Furthermore the method of evaluating/assessing the outcomes is also important. If we know precisely our goals and objectives then it is possible to set tasks for students to meet those objectives and to design appropriate measures for assessing their achievement. Something like "if you do x then I know you understand y. If not, you must go back and do it again. If you don't succeed by z date then your goal is missed. Your grad is F for this objective. " The trick is to have a reasonable set of x's and z's and to stick to them with only minor bargaining possible. Feedback, retrying, accountability, and support - like coaching are all important. So these types of exercises are of great pedogogical value, expecially when coupled to explicit goals and objectives accompanied with support and accountability. ------- Like some other teachers many of my students don't know anything about spreadsheets and some have never touched a computer for anything other than word processing and then only when the are forced to do so. Using one of the more popular spreadsheets is out of the question for me at this time. My choice for the past several years has been Supercalc 5. It has a shallow learning curve and does everything that I need for Pchem lab. The educational price is also good. There is an excellent tutorial and students like it's easy interface and creating graphs is a snap, even ones containing up to five different pairs of x,y data, using the xyxy option. Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 13:28:36 EDT From: George Loeb Organization: The American University Subject: Re: email with students In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 3 Aug 1993 10:58:41 EDT from The question of using ASCII for specific symbols can be done using the conventions already familiar with spreadsheet formulae or BASIC notation: but with a special sign for subscripts, such as ~. The possibilities for such symbols are apparently endless: I just read an article in the Washington Post w hich told of several hundred such, which are common among ASCII communicators (:-)) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 13:57:13 EDT From: George Loeb Organization: The American University Subject: Re: paper 11 In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 3 Aug 1993 14:32:05 PST from I too am an enthusiastic supporter of e-mail, but am not enthusiastic about usi ng it to substitute for personal contact with an instructor. Most of the reason for going to a campus is to get that contact, and when students complain about college, lack of personal contact with a real live professor is high on the list. Technology should be used to remove obstacles to personal and interactive student-faculty contact rather than make it even rarer. For this reason, uses such as giving out assignments and posting old exams are good uses. Teaching by e-mail is, in my opinion, going the wrong way.Using e-mail for additional disc ussion with students is ok provided it is not used as an excuse for eliminating personal contact time. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 14:25:34 EDT From: George Loeb Organization: The American University Subject: Re: Paper 11: Posting old exams In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 4 Aug 1993 09:05:40 -0400 from To Jack Miller: Could you say a bit more about the software for formatting "att achments" to email messages ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 14:37:02 -0400 From: "CARL H. SNYDER, CHEMISTRY; CSNYDER@UMIAMI" Subject: Re: paper 11 >Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1993 13:57:13 -0400 (EDT) >From: George Loeb >Subject: RE: paper 11 writes: >I too am an enthusiastic supporter of e-mail, but am not enthusiastic about usi >ng it to substitute for personal contact with an instructor. Most of the reason > for going to a campus is to get that contact, and when students complain about > college, lack of personal contact with a real live > professor is high on the list. >such as giving out assignments and posting old exams are good uses. Teaching by >e-mail is, in my opinion, going the wrong way.Using e-mail for additional disc >ussion with students is ok provided it is not used as an excuse for eliminating > personal contact time. I agree emphatically with George. I cannot condone using e-mail as a *substitute* for office conferences. Instead I think it can be a successful *supplement* to them. For example, a student who finds an error in a textbook or in lecture notes can get confirmation by e-mail -- there are probably better examples -- but a student who wants to probe more deeply into chirality effects in substitution reactions -- again, better examples are likely -- might prefer a personal discussion with the instructor. As for teaching by e-mail, there are clearly various kinds and styles of teaching, as elaborated by the recent discussion of old and new methods. I for one certainly wouldn't want to rule out the possibility of some form of teaching and learning going on by e-mail. But again, as valuable as personal contact time is, a quick e-mail note from a student in the heat of inspiration at midnight and an e-mail reply from an instructor with a fresh thought at 6 a.m. could allow us to move beyond the pysical and temporal bounds of office visits. Carl H. Snyder Internet: CSNYDER@umiami.IR.Miami.EDU Chemistry Department Bitnet: CSNYDER@umiami University of Miami Phone: (305)-284-2174 Coral Gables, FL 33124 FAX: (305)-285-4571 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 11:40:43 PST From: "Edward H. Piepmeier" Subject: Re[2]: email with students What are some of the ASCII email symbols that are in common(?) use for subscripts and superscripts, and other chemical symbols? >From: George Loeb >Organization: The American University >Subject: Re: email with students > >The question of using ASCII for specific symbols can be done using the > conventions already familiar with spreadsheet formulae or BASIC notation: >but with a special sign for subscripts, such as ~. The possibilities for such >symbols are apparently endless: I just read an article in the Washington Post w >which told of several hundred such, which are common among ASCII communicators > (:-)) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 13:43:28 CDT From: "GARY L. BERTRAND" Subject: Re: paper 11 In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Aug 1993 14:37:02 -0400 from I will be using e-mail office hours in addition to regular office hours in the coming semester. My experience has been that less than 10% of my white male students take advantage of regular office hours. The percentages are better for female students, and even better for minority students both male and female On the other hand, a telephone call (my students know I work at night) about a problem is nearly always from a white male student. I completely agree that my office hours are aimed at personal contact, but the bottom line is teaching. If email improves the communication (and I don't see how it could fail in this regard) I'll stick with it. ************************************************************************* * GARY L. BERTRAND, DEPT OF CHEMISTRY, UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-ROLLA * * ROLLA, MO 65401. (314)-341-4441 * * BITNET- GBERT@UMRVMB INTERNET- GBERT@UMRVMB.UMR.EDU * * "I NEVER WANTED TO BE FAMOUS, I JUST WANTED TO BE GREAT." RAY CHARLES * ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 16:13:25 -0400 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: paper13 discussion In answer to Dr. Coe's Question, I have used both spreadsheets (Lotus 123) and MathCad in P-Chem Lab and lecture, Although the subjects were slightly less complex mathmatically. For example, I have used MathCad for calculation of the rotational structure observed in the IR spectrum of a heteronuclear diatomic (the classic HCl experiment) from Boltzmann's equation, emmission characteristics of a blackbody radiator, calculation of non- ideal gas properties, etc.) Students use Lotus 123 extensively for an experiment in which they calculate the morse potential diagrams from the uv-vis absorption spectrum of Iodine vapor. I find MathCad to be more convenient for the exercises where students change parameters and visualize behavior (i.e. changing the temp. and observing the change in the rovibrational spectrum), but that the spreadsheet works better when the students need to handle large amounts of data. In particular, the editor in MathCad can be infuriating to learn. The main problem I encountered was the varying degree of computer literacy within the class. Some students found the computer part of the exercises trivial, while others had to be shown explicitly how to perform every step of the procedure. A more interesting observation, however, was the limited observations made by most students while using the programs. For example, students were asked to describe the effect of temperature on the rovibrational spectrum of HCl. They could use the MathCad program to observe the behavior. Typically they said "the absorption band became narrower and higher." While this is true (sort of), I would have prefered a more detailed description. The students were not taking full advantage of the information provided by the program! In retrospect, I could have asked more pointed, specific questions, but I didn't think this necessary for junior and senior chemistry majors. These types of exercises can provide the students with great insight, but the students have to be able to use the more detailed and abundant information provided by these exercises. I wonder if our standard labs, typical in general chemistry and organic, in which the information available to the student is so limited, is training our students to be equally limited ? George Long IUP ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1993 09:09:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 13 discussion: spreadsheets > What is the difference between what the student learns if they > have to construct the spreadsheet versus being given a working > spreadsheet of this model? I must admit to being somewhat torn between "build-it" and "buy-it". My feeling is that students always learn more when they build anything themselves rather that using something built by something else. This goes not only for spreadsheets, but also for MathCAD documents, computer simulations, computer programs in general, and even laboratory equipment. The problem is that it is often not practical to do so, especially at the undergraduate level, because it may take too long and may end up focusing too much attention on the mechanics of the construction process. So we often allow students to use pre-built systems in the interest of efficienty. But that does not mean that we shouldn't expect students to know something about how these systems work internally - at least the general principles and important concepts. For example, understanding the basis for numerical solution in a spreadsheet context are more important than learning how to generate and format a certain kind of graph in a specific spreadsheet, since they are all a little bit different in that respect. Spreadsheet construction from scratch can too easily degenate into trivial twiddling with the mechanics of a particular program. But having said that, I have personally found that I really understand something better if I built it myself - although I often speed more time doing so that I would want my students to spend. I teach a graduate course on spectrochemical analysis, using Ingle and Crouch. There the emphasis is primarily on the conceptual basis, less on the mathematical methods used, and even less on the mechanics of the computer tools used to implement the mathematics. I use spreadsheets for several purposes: creating interactive, animated versions of some of the standard textbook figures, interpreting and processing experimental data, comparing experimental data to theoretical models, visualizing of abstract ideas, simulating measurement systems and instruments, and as an aid in the development of laboratory methods. The spreadsheets are used either in class for demonstrations or group projects or outside of class by students working individually or in small groups in a computer lab, guided by on-line or printed instructions. For the most part, I provide prepared templates in which all of the mechanical aspects of spreadsheet construction and scripting are already done. I expect the students to understand what is behind the model, e.g. by inspecting cell equations, but I don't expect them to know about macro programming (scripting). In a typical assignment, students maniputate but do not construct the spreadsheet: they do things like select conditions, adjust parameters, observe the effects of changing variables, discover relationships between factors, determine under what conditions a certain behavior is observed, explore the Rparameter spaceS of some system with the goal of optimizing a response, make decisions based on their observations, compare a theoretical model to a (real or simulated) set of experimental data, and judge the appropriateness of the model and estimate the values of the parameters. The bottom line is that the students spend their time working with the concepts that are the subject matter of the course rather than learning spreadsheet construction. In one sense that's good, but I still believe thay would understand more if THEY had been the ones to concieve of and construct the spreadsheets in the first place. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1993 11:34:56 EDT From: "Dr. Jim Beard" Subject: Re: paper 11 In Message Fri, 6 Aug 1993 13:57:13 EDT, George Loeb writes: >I too am an enthusiastic supporter of e-mail, but am not enthusiastic about usi >ng it to substitute for personal contact with an instructor. Most of the reason > for going to a campus is to get that contact, and when students complain about > college, lack of personal contact with a real live > professor is high on the list. >Technology should be used to remove obstacles to personal and interactive >student-faculty contact rather than make it even rarer. For this reason, uses >such as giving out assignments and posting old exams are good uses. Teaching by >e-mail is, in my opinion, going the wrong way.Using e-mail for additional disc >ussion with students is ok provided it is not used as an excuse for eliminating > personal contact time. Amen! Jim Beard Catawba College Salisbury, NC 28144 (704) 637-4113 jbeard@library.catawba.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1993 20:56:52 -500 From: Scott VanBramer Subject: Spreadsheets In-Reply-To: <9308071539.AA17194@eagle.lhup.edu> Last spring while teaching Instrumental analysis I was explaining Kovats Indices to a group of students, their eyes were starting to glaze over and all of a sudden it struck me. We left the blackboard and walked back to the data system, in a few minutes I had a spreadsheet window open, THEIR data pluged in, and presto a log graph, plug in an unknown retention time and it shows on a graph where the Kovats number comes from, no need to plug numbers into a magic formula. All of a sudden I had their attention. The spreadsheet made it easy to use current and relevent data. That night I made a template with nicely labled graphics etc. After that the students could teach the idea to each other. This tool now made everything understandable enough that I could now stand back and watch them learn. I am sold on the idea and am anxious to impliment it on a wider scale this next year. Scott Van Bramer Lock Haven University svanbram@eagle.lhup.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1993 15:17:05 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Paper 13 discussion: spreadsheets > > What is the difference between what the student learns if they > > have to construct the spreadsheet versus being given a working > > spreadsheet of this model? > > I must admit to being somewhat torn between "build-it" and "buy-it". > ...... > > The bottom line is that the students spend their time working with > the concepts that are the subject matter of the course rather than > learning spreadsheet construction. In one sense that's good, but > I still believe thay would understand more if THEY had been the ones > to concieve of and construct the spreadsheets in the first place. > > Tom O'Haver > U. of Maryland For everything there is a season. Sometimes it is a good idea to build from the ground up and other times it is better to use an existing structure. The goals and objectives of a particular course help us to choose which one to do. It's just like in our own work - sometimes we use pre-existing tools and software other times we write our own. Some only use pre-existing software, others always write their own. Most function somewhere in the middle. Always a choice must be made and that choice is determined by the context as we see it and the values we impose upon it. We can't do it all and neither can our students. Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 09:56:27 EDT From: "C. H. Lochmuller" Subject: Re: paper 11 In-Reply-To: <9308071543.AA07370@umd5.umd.edu>; from "Dr. Jim Beard" at Aug 7, 93 11:34 am I would agree that there is a value to personal discussion time with students but that is not the value of e-mail. Electronic communication can occur on or off campus. I had a student begin senior research while in Rome visiting her State Department employed family. I have students send me questions over Fall and Spring brakfrom home, at night or over weekends when a question arises in study and while I am at home working as well. Yes, electronic cmommunication >CAN< be more impersonal. It can also be quicker than waiting for "office hours". It can force students to thnk about their questions. It can force the teacher to answer the student's actual question and not just give the same answer on " .....confused about standard states ...." she has used for 20 years. AND learning to use electronic communication prepares the student for the most common of modern forms, trains them to write quickly but corrctly and to the point. Yes. I do believe that "office hours" remain important! Charles Lochmuller Duke University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 17:27:39 -0500 From: Rick Moog Subject: Paper 14 -Short Questions Answers Answers to short questions for Paper 14: Adrian College <0005986208@mcimail.com> writes >1. You mention that the students were experienced MAC users. Had they >had other sciences using computer in experiment simulation or in >other implementations? I refer to our students as experienced Mac users in the sense that they are familiar with the way a Mac operates in general - menus, buttons, pointing and clicking in various places to see what happens, etc. We strongly recommend that our students purchase Macs when they arrive, and almost all of them do. >2. How much time do you estimate was spent on the project by the typical >student and was there any frustration? My impression was that the students generally spent a few hours on the project, although it may have been more. Several of them reported that it took them a little while to figure out what experiments to run, what initial conditions to use, etc., but that once they understood what to do it all went fairly quickly. Very few students came to me to ask for assistance, and those who did seemed to be more confused than frustrated. John Woolcock writes: >1. To make the simulation seem more realistic did you consider having the >students record in lab notebooks the steps they used to run the program >through the various experiments, spectra and data analysis? This would >help the those students that are not strong visual learners. This is an interesting idea. I did not require this, although my guess is that some students may have taken this approach to keep track of what they were doing. I pretty much left them to their own devices. >2. I found that when I used the program for the first time and tried to run a >spectrum first, I got a system error (#25) and the application quit. If I went >back and ran an experiment first and it plotted a graph for one run, I >could then do all the spectra I wanted. Then, when I quit the application >and came back I could then run a spectrum first. Why? Is the preference file >in the System Folder being created only when an experiment is run? I apologize for this bug. Several other people have reported that in some instances the program has unexpectedly crashed, and then when they tried again they had no problems. Since I submitted the program to the conference, we have had a new version which I believe does not have this difficulty. If anyone would like a copy of this newer version (which also has some other changes which improve the product) please let me know and I will get a copy to you. >3. Why can't (or didn't you want) the spectra to be saved by the students? I couldn't think of a good reason why the students would want to save the spectra of the various components. They can be printed out to obtain a hard copy, and they can be readily generated at any time with the program. If people in general think that it would be useful to be able to save these spectra, then I would certainly want to include that function in the final product. Any comments? >4. It would be helpful if the program had a more detailed explanation screen >that would briefly review the features of the program described in Appendix >1. >This could also be expanded to include hints on what to do in the exercise >and create a "guided inquiry" rather than "open inquiry" exercise out of it >which may be less frustrating for the students the first time they work >through it. This is another interesting idea. My thought is that I wanted to provide an application which individuals could tailor to their own needs. Each project file can be created with its own explanation screen so that an instructor could do precisely what you have described. >5. I have also been able to use JCE: Software's "Grafit" to plot the data from >saved files. It is substantially cheaper than the commercial graphing >packages but has fewer bells and whistles. Grafit's import feature always >expects delimited text files to have column headings. It therefore puts the >first row of data into the column headings which are not plotted. Since in >Chemulate this point is (0, 0) this is not a big problem, except when you >need to get initial rates. We could easily include column headings in these files if that would be generally desirable. Opinions? >6. For me an experiment simulation is in all senses of the phrase: "the next >best thing". They are better than nothing at all and work best as an >introduction to a real experiment. Students should be forced to make their >own solutions, handle troublesome equipment, etc. Making an experiment >too idealized will not do this. I would most likely use Chemulate as an >in-class activity as you have described or a pre or post lab assignment. With > some fine tuning it would even be worth distributing Chemulate >commercially or through JCE: Software. Particularly if the method that >allows instructors to set up new exercises is not too difficult. Answers to more short questions will be coming soon. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 09:21:22 -0500 From: Rick Moog Subject: Paper 14 - More Short Question Answers Paper 14 - Answers to Short Questions Donald Rosenthal writes: >1. Chemulate would appear to be an interesting and useful application of > the computer in helping to teach kinetics. Unfortunately, I do not > have ready access to the Macintosh hardware. For this reason it is > difficult to visualize exactly what your program is like. In your > paper (Section II-B) you state: > > > Their assignment was to determine which of three possible mechanisms > > could apply to their system (that is, determine the rate law and > > which of the three mechanisms could provide that law), and to > > determine the Arrhenius constant and the activation energy for the > > constant k. > > a. I wonder if you can provide an ASCII file containing a specific > example, i.e. identify the reaction and list three mechanisms. > > b. Were the students expected to deduce the rate expression for each > of the mechanisms? The examples you cited in Appendix 2-B are > rather complex, paricularly for an undergraduate just beginning to > study kinetics. The assignment I gave was to examine the generic reaction A + B -> C. Three possible mechanisms are a) A + B -> C k1 rate = k[A][B] b) A + A <=> A2 k1,k-1 A2 + B -> C + A k2 rate = k1 k2 [B][A]^2/(k-1 + k2[B]) assuming steady state approx. = k1 [A]^2 when k-1<>k2[B] c) B + B <=> B2 k1,k-1 B2 + A -> C + B k2 rate = k1 k2 [A][B]^2/(k-1 + k2[A]) assuming steady state approx. = k1 [B]^2 when k-1<>k2[A] The students were expected to derive the rate expressions for each mechanism, employing the SSA when approprite, and to recognize the limiting conditions which would lead to the simpler rate expressions shown in b) and c). Although it would be possible to generate project files for the full rate expressions obtained for mechanisms b) and c), in reality I provided files based on the limiting rate laws (mostly because they were simpler to create). These are the files provided for this conference as ABC files. The project files described in Appendix 2-B do have rate laws which are more complex, and I did not assign these to the students. However, these are experiments which we have had our students investigate in the laboratory during the second semester of PChem. They are included to show the versatility of the program - and could be used as an instructor finds appropriate. >2. In the oxidation of ethanol example (Appendix 2-B) you indicate the > rate depends upon the concentrations of HCrO4-, H+ and EtOH. HCrO4- > is in equilibrium with CrO4= and Cr2O7=. Do the students consider > these equilibria? As described above, this file is based on the experiment we have used in laboratory. In that context, the concentration of acid is high enough so that essentially no Cr2O7= is present. The equilibrium is not considered in that project file - an oversight on my part. I'm not sure whether or not we could account for that in a rigorous way. >3. In the reduction of hexacyano iron(III) by ascorbic acid (Appendix > 2-B) there are three rate constants (as you indicate). Were the > students expected to determine the Arrhenius parameters and > activation energies for each rate constant? Again, this project was not assigned to the students. It would be difficult to find the Arrhenius parameters for each constant. A suggested use for this project would be to refute or confirm a proposed mechanism, or to determine the order with respect to a single component under constant conditions for the others. >4. In Section 2-F you mention the determination of the initial rate of > reaction from the initial slope. How accurate were the rate > constants, and energies of activation which the students obtained > from the data? My recollection is that the student results were excellent. (I have spent the last six weeks searching for my records of how their results compared to the file values in anticipation of this question and have been unable to locate them. Perhaps I could blame this on having moved my office twice in the last year, but I won't tr yto do that.) When I have performed the experiments, I have been able to reproduce the file values to within a few percent every time, even when I try to be sloppy. If anyone would like to know the values for a particular file, I would be happy to provide them. >5. Generally, a suitable plot of the integrated form of the rate > equation provides more accurate rate constants than do initial > rates. Did students use integrated forms of the rate equation? For > example, the rate of oxidation of ethanol is pseudo first order in > ethanol under appropriate conditions (and pseudo second order in > HCrO4- under other conditions). For the ABC files, students generally used the method of initial rates. One other note - I have just discovered that, contrary to my suggestion in the text, the ABC files do not generate any noise on the kinetic runs. I set the "noise factor" to 0 in these files to test other parts of the program, and never changed them back. It is relatively easy to do however. I apologize for any inconvenience/frustration which this may have caused. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 14:14:10 -0500 From: Rick Moog Subject: Re: Discussion of Paper 14 begins Well, my contribution has been greeted with thunderous silence. I suppose I could take that a number of different ways. If there is anyone out there who has tried Chemulate! but has not previously communicated their opinion of it to me (either publicly or privately) I would greatly appreciate your opinion. Is it: a) uninteresting and not very useful b) interesting but not very useful c) uninteresting but useful d) interesting and useful e) other Specific comments reagrding the program would also be appreciated. Also - what do people think about the usefulness in general of this type of simulation? Is this an effective use of computers as a pedagogic tool? Rick Moog Voice: 717-291-3804 Department of Chemistry Fax: 717-291-4343 Franklin and Marshall College E-mail: R_Moog@ACAD.FANDM.EDU Lancater, PA 17604-3003 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 13:47:07 CDT From: "GARY L. BERTRAND" Subject: Re: Discussion of Paper 14 begins In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 10 Aug 1993 14:14:10 -0500 from I think that this is an excellent program for teaching chemical kinetics. Ideally, the students can use the program to go through a complete exercise of determining the order with respect to 2 or more components, set up "experiments" to determine the rate constant with maximum precision, and determine the activation parameters. Under the best of conditions, the students could use the program to decide on the concentrations they will use in one or more actual experiments, eliminating the "cookbook" that we all claim to hate, but use nonetheless. For this purpose, the program should simulate the real experiment as closely as possible. While there are many strong points about basing this experiment on spectroscopic data, I think a stronger case may be made for data output in terms of concentrations of reactants and/or products - after all, these are beginners, and concentrations are less abstract than Absorbancy data. In using simulations of this type, I have been able to impress students with the discrepancies between statistical uncertainties calculated for individual rate constants, and the uncertainty calculated for replicate measurements. The real value of this type of program can only be realized if the students "play" with it to broaden their "experience" with reaction kinetics after doing real experiments. I have so far been unsuccessful in getting my students to do this. ************************************************************************* * GARY L. BERTRAND, DEPT OF CHEMISTRY, UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-ROLLA * * ROLLA, MO 65401. (314)-341-4441 * * BITNET- GBERT@UMRVMB INTERNET- GBERT@UMRVMB.UMR.EDU * * "I NEVER WANTED TO BE FAMOUS, I JUST WANTED TO BE GREAT." RAY CHARLES * ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 15:40:17 -0400 From: JOHN WOOLCOCK Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Discussion of Paper 14 begins Gary Bertrand writes: >While there are many strong points about basing this experiment on >spectroscopic data, I think a stronger case may be made for data output >in terms of concentrations of reactants and/or products - after all, >these are beginners, and concentrations are less abstract than >Absorbancy data. I disagree with this. I think that when I use a simulation, I want it to be as true to the real thing as is practical or possible. When real spectrophotometric kinetics are done absorbances are typically converted to concentrations using Beer's Law. Chemulate allows the students to do this part of the data analysis as well. If I wanted to skip this part with my students then I would tell them how to do this conversion when the data is transferred to the graphing program or spreadsheet program by giving them a cell equation or having them transfer the data to a template or macro that is already constructed. John C. Woolcock Chemistry Department Indiana University of PA Indiana, PA 15705 Internet: WOOLCOCK@grove.iup.edu Bitnet: WOOLCOCK@IUP ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 09:22:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 14 discussion Gary Bertrand says: > The real value of this type of program can only be realized if the > students "play" ...I have so far been unsuccessful in getting my > students to do this. I have also found this to be the case, to my dismay. It seems that simulation programs are especially loved by instructiors, who do like to play with them and explore. But my students have often been confused by simulation programs and usually try to "get through" them as quickly as possible. Relatively few seem to be caught up in the fun of exploration. Why is that? Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 09:51:59 -0400 From: Paul Edwards Subject: Re: Paper 14 discussion Re: simulations, playing and confusion Tom asked the question why students don't get caught up in the fun of the exploration. I'd like to hazard a guess. The instructors understand what is being simulated, but why should the students? We tell them it is a simulation of something, but they have no experience with the real system or reason to believe the simulation is accurate. So why should they view the assignment as anything more than another exercise to crank through? I think a variation of this came up on CHEMED-L a year or so ago. At that time, I think I used the terminology "from where does a simulation draw its credibility". If the students are just racing through, maybe they are asking why they are doing this and why should they believe it. Paul Edwards edwardsp@vax.edinboro.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 10:06:51 -0500 From: Rick Moog Subject: Re: Paper 14 discussion Gary Bertrand says: >> The real value of this type of program can only be realized if the >> students "play" ...I have so far been unsuccessful in getting my >> students to do this. Tom O'Haver says: >I have also found this to be the case, to my dismay. It seems >that simulation programs are especially loved by instructiors, >who do like to play with them and explore. But my students have >often been confused by simulation programs and usually try to >"get through" them as quickly as possible. Relatively few seem to >be caught up in the fun of exploration. Why is that? Here's a conjecture based on my limited experience. Although I will not claim that my students spent myriad hours enjoying "playing around" with the program, they did "play around" enough to figure out how to do the assignment they had been given. The course contained a section on kinetics, but since there was no lab, there was no context to think about kinetics problems other than those presented in the text. Many students commented that using this program made clear to them concepts that they had not understood previously. At the end of the course, when asked to comment on the evaluation forms about the merits (and demerits) of the computer assignment, they were essentially unanimous in being positive about it, and several mentonoed it as the best aspect of the course. (That may be a comment on the rest of the course, but...) Here is my guess of why this seems to have "worked" (in no particular order): - there was a specific task to perform which included the necessity of "playing around" to accomplish it - the exercise was not a simulation of something the students had already done, but provided a new context to think about material they "needed" to understand - they could do the work anywhere (and anytime) they could find a Mac - in their dorm rooms, at a friend's house, at the computer center, etc. Rick Moog Voice: 717-291-3804 Department of Chemistry Fax: 717-291-4343 Franklin and Marshall College E-mail: R_Moog@ACAD.FANDM.EDU Lancater, PA 17604-3003 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 10:46:22 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 14 discussion My cooeague Ian Brindle replies >Gary Bertrand says: >> The real value of this type of program can only be realized if the >> students "play" ...I have so far been unsuccessful in getting my >> students to do this. > >I have also found this to be the case, to my dismay. It seems >that simulation programs are especially loved by instructiors, >who do like to play with them and explore. But my students have >often been confused by simulation programs and usually try to >"get through" them as quickly as possible. Relatively few seem to >be caught up in the fun of exploration. Why is that? > >Tom O'Haver >U. of Maryland A response to Tom O'Havers comments about "play" time: Small wonder that kids don't have time to "play" when we structure their time with assignments, examinations, etc. An undergraduate student with a full course load, it seems to me, very rarely has the luxury of time to play. Given time, the student often apply it to those courses where there is the greatest pressure of work. Given open ended play time, I would suggest, may seem threatening to an undergraduate (and a frehman graduate student!) >>>>>>>>>>> Ian Brindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chemistry Department Brock University St Catharines Ontario L2S 3A1 416 688 5550 Ex 3545 FAX 682 9020 Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 09:21:50 -0400 From: JOHN WOOLCOCK Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 14 -Short Questions Answers Since thunderous silence again seems to reign I'll throw in another 2 cents worth. I was puzzled by the fact that the implementation in Fall 1992 did not go as well as in the previous year. I would have expected most students to react positively to this type of exercise. Perhaps they had come to expect more "sage on the stage" and when they got a "guide on the side" they felt uncomfortable with this change is style. Doing several activities of this type during the semester as you suggest should help to minimize this. The observations made by the second semester lab instructor: ("Last year the students just got going right away and seemed to know what they were doing. This year, they got through it all right, but it seemed to take them longer to figure out what to do.") I think this points to some important pedagogical benefits of this type of exercise. First, done as an activity in lecture this helps to foster a stronger link between lecture and lab. Second, some of the discovery and planning of an experiment is done before lab begins which allows the instructor to take the students further than is typical in one lab period. Also, with more confidence in their understanding of what is expected they tend to be more willing to examine the experiment and its nuances in more detial. Finally, A question for the Richard Moog: In surveying P. Chem lab texts there are a number of kinetics that I would probably avoid due to the fact that construction of special equipment is required and I am not an avid tinkerer. Experiments such as flash photolysis, T-jump and stop flow in which spectrophotometry is used for rate measurements. Do you think Chemulate can be set up to simulate these types of experiments? John C. Woolcock Chemistry Department Indiana University of PA Indiana, PA 15705 Internet: WOOLCOCK@grove.iup.edu Bitnet: WOOLCOCK@IUP ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 10:17:10 CDT From: "GARY L. BERTRAND" Subject: Re: Paper 14 discussion In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 11 Aug 1993 10:06:51 -0500 from Some helpful points are being made here. A large part of the problem has been summed up by Paul Edwards: we understand what's behind the simulation (both the experiment and the simulated presentation), and they are just encountering it. This is the point I was trying to make earlier in suggesting that the output as concentration(s) might be preferred over absorbance, even though these are interchangeable. I think that this is even more important if the simulation is being used separately from the laboratory. Ian Brindle makes another strong point: "playing" with an experiment is a luxury that many students do not feel they can afford, especially if the benefits are not clear and the exercise is not really that much fun. We have used simulations for the iodine clock reaction and viscosity of polymer solutions in PChem Lab for a few years. The former is used with a "cookbook" and the latter is less structured. Our students strongly prefer the structured experiment. Rick Moog makes his simulation available to students to be used at their "leisure". Certrainly, this has to help. I will try this with an advanced kinetics class this semester. I'll use Chemulate as well as a Hypercard program which gives numerical output as concentration(s) vs time, and see which works better. ************************************************************************* * GARY L. BERTRAND, DEPT OF CHEMISTRY, UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-ROLLA * * ROLLA, MO 65401. (314)-341-4441 * * BITNET- GBERT@UMRVMB INTERNET- GBERT@UMRVMB.UMR.EDU * * "I NEVER WANTED TO BE FAMOUS, I JUST WANTED TO BE GREAT." RAY CHARLES * ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 10:58:31 EDT From: "R. T. Wilson" Subject: Paper 14 Discussion:Simulations Rick Moog, Paul Edwards and Ian Brindle have already commented on remarks by Bertrand and O'Haver concerning students' lack of enthusiasm for computer simulations. Tom, I think this goes back once again to the issue of personality, which has been mentioned in another context earlier. You mentioned the book by Sheila Tobias, _They're Not Dumb, They're Different._ A Couple of others I hastily found at our library are: _Learning Styles: Implications for Improving Educational Practices_, by Charles S. Claxton and Patricia H. Murrell, ASHE-ERIC Higher Education Report No. 4. Washington, D.C.: Association for the Study of Higher Education, 1987; and _Please Understand Me: Character and Temperament Types_ by David Keirsey and Marilyn Bates, Prometheus Nemesis Book Company. Del Mar, Ca., 1984. Both of these discuss personality and learning styles. Basically, students tend to be more extroverted than their professors, who love to sit in front of their computer terminals playing computer games. Students are much less interested in this, and would rather get it over with so they can get back where the action is. Of course there are differences between students and differences between professors. It makes a big difference whether you are dealing with graduate students in chemistry or lesser mortals. Terrell Wilson Department of Chemistry Virginia Military Institute Lexington, Virginia 24450 e-mail: fchwilson%faculty%vmi@ist.vmi.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 08:42:50 PST From: "Edward H. Piepmeier" Subject: Re[2]: Paper 14 discussion Tom asked the question why students don't get caught up in the fun of the exploration. I wonder if the students need to be assigned problems that can be answered by doing the simulation, rather than just being given a simulation to play around with? Ed Piepmeier Department of Chemistry Oregon State University Corvallis, OR 97331-4003 piepmeie@ccmail.orst.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 12:37:03 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: Paper 14 discussion In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 11 Aug 1993 09:22:00 EDT from Surprisingly, many are afraid to play. They're afraid they'll screw something up. On Wed, 11 Aug 1993 09:22:00 EDT to2 said: >Gary Bertrand says: >> The real value of this type of program can only be realized if the >> students "play" ...I have so far been unsuccessful in getting my >> students to do this. > >I have also found this to be the case, to my dismay. It seems >that simulation programs are especially loved by instructiors, >who do like to play with them and explore. But my students have >often been confused by simulation programs and usually try to >"get through" them as quickly as possible. Relatively few seem to >be caught up in the fun of exploration. Why is that? > >Tom O'Haver >U. of Maryland Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 13:02:50 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 14 Discussion:Simulations >Rick Moog, Paul Edwards and Ian Brindle have already commented on remarks by >Bertrand and O'Haver concerning students' lack of enthusiasm for computer >simulations. Tom, I think this goes back once again to the issue of >personality, which has been mentioned in another context earlier. You >mentioned the book by Sheila Tobias, _They're Not Dumb, They're Different._ A >Couple of others I hastily found at our library are: _Learning Styles: >Implications for Improving Educational Practices_, by Charles S. Claxton and >Patricia H. Murrell, ASHE-ERIC Higher Education Report No. 4. Washington, D.C.: >Association for the Study of Higher Education, 1987; and _Please Understand Me: > Character and Temperament Types_ by David Keirsey and Marilyn Bates, >Prometheus Nemesis Book Company. Del Mar, Ca., 1984. > Both of these discuss personality and learning styles. Basically, >students tend to be more extroverted than their professors, who love to sit in >front of their computer terminals playing computer games. Students are much >less interested in this, and would rather get it over with so they can get back >where the action is. Of course there are differences between students and >differences between professors. It makes a big difference whether you are >dealing with graduate students in chemistry or lesser mortals. >Terrell Wilson >Department of Chemistry >Virginia Military Institute >Lexington, Virginia 24450 >e-mail: fchwilson%faculty%vmi@ist.vmi.edu There is also a cultural and sexual differentiation among students. The avid computer games players will love to tinker with simulations. Female studetns appear less likely to -- especially in early years. There is still a noticable reluctance on the part of females compared to males entering university to sit down in front of a computer -- though less so than a few years ago. Prior to a national science fair I had the occasion to give a lecture to 400 high school students, the point of which was the increasing importance of the computer in the workplace. Despite the fact that at that time more women than men used computers at work, the students when they entered at the computer I had set up to one side, and the first four rows on that side of the room were entirely male, the front rows on the other side almost entirely female. An hour later I repeated the talk, swapped the side on which the computer was set up and the next lot repeated the same behavior -- males only in front of the computer. Its not as bad now, but the problem still exists. Simulations are seen as competitive games by some female students. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 13:12:18 EDT From: Allan Smith Subject: Re: Discussion of Paper 14 begins In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 10 Aug 1993 15:40:17 -0400 from Rick Moog's kinetics program is very similar in concept to a Macintosh program called KSIMS, which we ported to the Mac six years ago from FORTRAN code written elsewhere. Students could choose one of 20 elementary reactions, then set initial concentrations and temperature and run the simulation. The data could then be plotted in one of several standard ways to determine the reaction order and to extract the rate constant. I first used KSIMS with freshmen about ten years ago when we had a roomful of dumb terminals connected to a mainframe; even in that setting, I believe students learned something. The only reason I don't use KSIMS now is that it was written by a programmer hired by the Software Development Group at Drexel; in the intervening six years, the programmer has left and so has virtually the entire group ("restructuring", a euphemism for downsizing). The underlying kinetic equations for this type of problem are quite straightforward, and are given in most kinetics texts. My approach to doing this again (when I get around to it) is to put the equations into an equation solver. When KSIMS worked on the Macs we had, I even used it in my graduate kinetics course successfully. I also support the use of absorbances rather than concentrations, at least for upper level students. It is also very straightforward to deduce reaction rate laws and rate constants from absorbance data in which more than one species is absorbing at the monitoring wavelength (see Moore and Pearson, Kinetics and Mechanism, 3rd Edition, Wiley Interscience, 1981, Chap 3) [Aside: John Moore, if you're reading this - thanks for this fine book!]. It is not always possible to find monitoring wavelengths at which only one species absorbs, but with the Moore and Pearson approach, this is not necessary. The approach outlined there can also be used to determine rate constants for a gas phase reaction by measuring total pressure versus time. Allan Smith, Drexel University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 15:07:34 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 11: Posting old exams >To Jack Miller: Could you say a bit more about the software for formatting "att >achments" to email messages On the Brock campus we use the fullowing two programs for PCs and Macs respectively. NUPop is available on various internet archive sites and can be downloaded from the ftp site "ftp.acns.nwu.edu" in the /pub/nupop directory logging in as anonymous. Eudora is also available from from the popular internet sites and is also at "ftp.qualcomm.com". Both of these programs use the "attachment" or "enclosure" in order to move formatted documents. They are compatible because both programs use binhex to encode and decode the document(s). Both programs are freeware. Both programs are full blown e-mail packages with many options. One option is "attach document". When chosen you get a menu to choose folder and then a file from your Mac (PC) disk, and on responding with a carriage return or click on the "open" button your word processor, graphic, spreadsheet or whatever file is identified in your e-mail window as an attachment. When you send your e-mail message, the attached document goes throgh the bin/hex converter, is sent in e-mail compatible format and on receipt you get the messge that there is an attachement and a querry of where you want it saved and if you want its name changed -- when saved to disk the bin/hex conversion occurs in the opposite direction and you have the file intact. since Macs -- or mine as configured can open most MS DOS files it doesn't matter if it was sent to me from a Mac or a PC, Eudora reading the NuPop atttached files and visa versa. I then open in Word the file sent by a PC or a Mac using word orWordperfect or other word processor, and you can include all sorts of graphics in the word processor file. Certainly super and sub-scripts are trivial. It works best however if both Macs and PCs are using the same word processor as the odd bid of formatting doesn't translate well. For document purposes, e.g. student assignments the e-mail message would be simply that assignment 1 is attached. The student would then get assignment 1 saved to their disk and when opened in their word processor all formating is intact. Answers done in word processors, spreadsheets or data base programs can be returned to the professor in the same way as an attachment. There are the equivalent programs that work on a UNIX workstation -- the only problems are those people who swear by UNIX Mail and vi editors -- relics of the 60's (the software if not the hacker affectionados -- not dissimilar to those who believe LaTEX is a wordprocessing environment rather than a Fortran Progrmaers environment as came out in discussion last month.) We are running a campus wide Ethenet backbone with PCs and Macs directly onto nodes in each building or many Macs on a LocalTalk network connectrf to the ethernet via a gateway in each building. The servers that handle the e-mail are either the computer center Silicon Graphics 4 processor Challenge series (as of next week) or local SGI workstations in departments. Eudora also works for me from home via a modem and Appletalk remote access (ARA). There are also other serial TCP/IP software packages that can be used for Macs or PCs to have full internet access loging onto the campus lines via modem. The ARA is great -- you keep the mac graphical environment, and I can log into my office Mac or one of the Mac servers oncampus to get files or run software that is found there -- though large programs can be quite slow to boot even with 14.2 kbaud modems. However internet sessions, Gophers etc. are quite friendly even in this slower mode. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 10:10:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 14 - Discussion of Simulation Paper 14 - Discussion of Simulation Chemulate! A Simulator of UV/Visible Kinetics Experiments for the Macintosh by Richard S. Moog ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Professor Moog in the QUESTIONS FOR READERS section of his paper says: > There are varying opinions of the general usefullness and/or > effectiveness of computer simulations in the teaching of chemistry. In his Tuesday, August 10 14:14:10 comment he asks: > What do people think about the usefulness . . . of this type of > simulation? Is this an effective use of computers as a pedagogic > tool? * I can not really comment on the specifics of Professor Moog's * program. I did not run it. * I believe what he is trying to do can be useful. * If this program serves as a substitute for running an actual kinetic * experiment, I have some of the same reservations as those expressed * by John Woolcock: > 6. For me an experiment simulation is . . . "the next best thing". > They are better than nothing at all . . . * Chemistry is a laboratory science and I believe that simulations are * usually a poor substitute for actual laboratory experience. * Having said that, I still believe simulations can be very useful. * In a laboratory course it is usually not feasible nor desirable to * have a student perform a time consuming experiment under somewhat * different conditions again and again and again. * For that reason simulation sometimes provides an attractive * alternative. * In Chemulate it appears that many simulated experiments can be * designed by the students and performed so that many rate constants * can be obtained in a relatively short period of time at different * concentrations of reactants and at different temperatures. Such data * are needed to determine the rate expression and energy of activation * for a reaction. * SQUALOR - the qual organic simulation program - is an * interesting simulation, which when used together with some qual * organic laboratory experiments has considerable pedagogic value. * I used to teach an advanced undergraduate - graduate course entitled * "The Analysis of Experimental Data". The course involved numerical * and statistical analysis - consideration of errors - the testing of * hypotheses and the design of experiments. I believed it would be * useful for students to design experiments and collect data. With * the assistance of a graduate student a kinetic simulation program was * developed involving the hydrolysis of p-methylphenyl formate. The * students select the temperature, buffer and its concentration and * number of runs to be made under these conditions. The program * provides the pH, the rate constant and its standard deviation. * Error is introduced. * In one or two preliminary experiments absorbance vs time data are * provided so that the pseudo first order nature of the reaction can * be tested. * I don't know how much tedium is associated with finding the rate * constant from data obtained from CHEMULATE. It depends upon how * many experiments students have to run. It would seem to me that * after a while little is to be learned from obtaining another initial * rate or rate constant. In my program designed for advanced * undergraduates or graduate students one or two sets of absorbance * were deemed to be sufficient. * Students used my program (KESIP - KinEtic SImulation Program) for a * month and were asked to prepare a report summarizing the results of * their study. I considered it to be an important part of the course. * I thought it had considerable pedagogic value. Donald Rosenthal Clarkson University ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 08:36:57 -0500 From: Rick Moog Subject: Re: Paper 14 -Short Questions Answers I apologize for submitting this response after the discussion of Paper 14 is closed, but I will be out of town next week and unable to respond during the open discussion. John Woolcock asks: >In surveying P. Chem lab texts there are a number of kinetics that I would >probably avoid due to the fact that construction of special equipment is >required and I am not an avid tinkerer. Experiments such as flash photolysis, >T-jump and stop flow in which spectrophotometry is used for rate measurements. >Do you think Chemulate can be set up to simulate these types of experiments? I think so, but not in ints current version. Unfortunately, the former student who is the actual author of the software is on vacation, so I can't confirm this with him. The heart of Chemulate! is the ability to take an arbitrary rate law (with associated parameters for the constants) and a given set of initial conditions, and calculate the concentration of all species as a function of time. The observable that is displayed in the current version of the program is the absorbance (which requires the extinction coefficients for each species present also). As some have proposed, presenting the concentration as a function of time might be better. I will point out that this can be easily done with the current program by simply "defining" the absorption spectrum of the species to be examined to be 0 at all wavelengths other than a particular one, setting the extinction coefficient to be 1 at that wavelength, and then examining the absorbance at that wavelength as a function of time. As far as these other experiments are concerned: My understanding is that if one can produce an analytical expression for the concentration of species as a function of time (or a method for generating a close approximation) that we could produce a display of an observable based on those concentrations as a function of time. Does that answer the question? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 11:01:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 15: Lab programming systems > How does one control a computer for the collection of experimental > data in an instructional chemistry laboratory? For professional industrial applications, the answer is increasingly some sort of graphical flow-chart type of programming system. The most successful and widely used example of is National Instrument's LabView system, which I have seen in use in several chemical research and industrial labs for instrument control and data acquisition applications. The advantange of such systems over conventional programming is that they don't require programming skills, which most chemists don't have. For the same reason, I have heard that LabView has been used in some introductory chemistry laboratories. It must be admited, however, that LabView requires modern hardware, whereas the approach described in Paper 15 has the advantage of working on older (earlier 80's vintage) hardware, which many schools still have. > Control files are ordinarily in unreadable binary.... Why would that be? Text files are ordinarily much easier to create, read, write, and edit that binary files. Why would anyone every use a binary file for such a task? Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 11:08:43 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Paper 14 - Discussion of Simulation Paper 14 - Discussion of Simulation Don Rosenthal writes: Professor Moog in the QUESTIONS FOR READERS section of his paper says: > There are varying opinions of the general usefulness and/or > effectiveness of computer simulations in the teaching of chemistry. In his Tuesday, August 10 14:14:10 comment he asks: > What do people think about the usefulness . . . of this type of > simulation? Is this an effective use of computers as a pedagogic > tool? * I can not really comment on the specifics of Professor Moog's * program. I did not run it. * I believe what he is trying to do can be useful. * If this program serves as a substitute for running an actual kinetic * experiment, I have some of the same reservations as those expressed * by John Woolcock: > 6. For me an experiment simulation is . . . "the next best thing". > They are better than nothing at all . . . * Chemistry is a laboratory science and I believe that simulations are * usually a poor substitute for actual laboratory experience. * Having said that, I still believe simulations can be very useful. * In a laboratory course it is usually not feasible nor desirable to * have a student perform a time consuming experiment under somewhat * different conditions again and again and again. * For that reason simulation sometimes provides an attractive * alternative. _________ I would like to add at this point that simulations are an important part of modern chemical research. Quantum chemistry, molecular dynamics, molecular modeling, statistical thermodynamics, monte carlo studies etc. are all done by chemists whose lab is a room full of computers. Most of these scientists never handle chemicals and instruments. I think that somewhere besides the quantum course that some students take they should have an exposure to the use of simulations for learning about chemical phenomenon. Too often students will say "oh, that is just theory, it's not factual" without realizing the amount of theoretical work that leads to modern instrumentation. The significance of theory becomes lost. It becomes equivalent to hypothesis. As we all know theory and hypothesis are not the same. ________ Don writes further * In Chemulate it appears that many simulated experiments can be * designed by the students and performed so that many rate constants * can be obtained in a relatively short period of time at different * concentrations of reactants and at different temperatures. Such data * are needed to determine the rate expression and energy of activation * for a reaction. * SQUALOR - the qual organic simulation program - is an * interesting simulation, which when used together with some qual * organic laboratory experiments has considerable pedagogic value. * I don't know how much tedium is associated with finding the rate * constant from data obtained from CHEMULATE. It depends upon how * many experiments students have to run. It would seem to me that * after a while little is to be learned from obtaining another initial * rate or rate constant. * Students used my program (KESIP - KinEtic SImulation Program) for a * month and were asked to prepare a report summarizing the results of * their study. I considered it to be an important part of the course. * I thought it had considerable pedagogic value. _________ I also think that materials like the one described in this paper and by Don have considerable pedagogical value. But The concerns and observations raised in the above point out an important issue that must be addressed. The broader issue of developing higher order thinking skills in students. Whenever simulations or other activities are carried out in class or in lab there must be clear objectives and goals and these should be made explicit for the students. At the asme time we need to keep in mind different learning styles and intellectual developmental levels for our students. Several references for both topics have been distributed already. It might be useful to keep in mind that no one model of student learning will have all the answers to helping us to foster higher order thinking skill development in our students. A combination will give us insights that one alone would never do. Since there are about 16 different types of learning (or so I've been told) it would be impossible to keep everyone, even in a small class, happy with exercises that utilize their optimum mode. I guess this leaves us with needing to develop variety for our classes and this is one reason why the over dependence on straight lecture is out of favor with so many educators. This dove tails with the observation made by Tom O'Haver and others about why students don't know how to play or get caught up in the fun of exploration. So many just race through to get done. Several useful insights into the problem were presented yesterday. I would like to throw a spot light on one more that was hinted at but not fully developed. Jim Holler said that students are afraid to play because they may screw up. Ed Piepmeier pointed out that students may need specific problems to solve with a simulation. Jack Miller reminded us of the special role of the instructor in training both male and female students. This fits in with the learning styles issue introduced by Terrell Wilson. And Rick Moog added that a specific needed learning task that could be done anywhere made simulations work. And Paul Edwards adds "from where does a simulation draw its credibility". And Ian Brindle points out that students play where there is greatest pleasure and that open ended play may seem threatening to undergraduate and early graduate students. My addition to this is to ask us to consider the students as developing along an intellectual spectrum. Our task as teachers is to move them along by providing the challenges and supports that allow them to progress. Challenges, like in weight lifting, that are just beyond their ability, and supports in the form of tasks that they can successfully complete. They also get support when they can see us with all our human frailties as we struggle to solve chemical problems. This moves us out of the realm of deities and helps put the subject within their reach. Simulations are a useful way of providing challenge and support. The early stage in development is one in which students want right answers and use algorithms almost exclusively. Simulations can work very well to help these students to learn a topic but then we must expect them to just grind through it as a task like many others - plug in the numbers, make it work , and get out of here. This is OK but one really wants to get the students thinking about the subject. This is the difficult part. How do we design an exercise or simulation so that the students must reach out and strain a bit to get the answer and want to get the answer at the same time. My first effort in this line is to give structure in the form of questions that require interpretation of figures and graphs. Another technique I am trying to develop is to get students to see things from multiple points of view. What you think about a topic and the results you get depends on your point of view. Sort of like doing reactions in different solvents. The results change. This challenges students up to a relativistic stage of development -- there are many ways to solve a problem, all equally valid. Now we want them to move further and learn to apply 'rules of adequacy' to information, judgements, and perspectives. Choose the optimum technique for a particular set of circumstances . None of this is accomplished in one course. It requires a full curriculum both in the major and in the other courses a student takes. It requires continual explicit practice. Even then many students don't get completely into the higher stages and it is the higher stages that are essential for success as scholars, people who get caught up in the fun of exploration. Telling students to 'think' causes their mind to freeze. They usually haven't a clue as to what you mean or want. Better is to lead them to think, design exercises that steadily develop thinking skills. A well designed discovery exercise will develop thinking at a variety of levels and work for a variety of learning types. It's a tall order, maybe one that can be accomplished only in pieces and where the pieces that work for one set of instructors in one type of setting will not be optimal for another set of instructors in another type of setting. Whatever we do it might be useful to consider that maybe our students need more 'hand ups' and less 'hand outs'. Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 11:20:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Paper 15: standard menu systems In the discussion of an earlier paper Reed Howald said: > I am frustrated with menus that require mice, but we can and > should provide menu eccess to computer information and control > in a standard way. > ... the use of standard menus is ... the key to easy access.... Microcomputer software (i.e. software that runs on your local desktop machine) has already adopted a de-facto standard menu configuration. Every new operating system and environment introduced since the middle 1980's has used pull-down menus with at least a File menu (usually containing New, Open, Save, Save as, Print, and Quit or eXit) and an Edit menu (containing Undo, Cut, Copy, and Paste). Other menus vary according to the program. Such menus can be pointer or keyboard selected. Almost every program, even some running in character mode, comply with these standards. Modern programming languages, and even spreadsheet macros and software construction kits for non- programmers, have built-in facilities for creating and modyfying standard pull-down menus. Software that runs on a remote host and is accessed via vt100 terminal emulation is less standardized, but most of the ones I've seen allow cursor key movement up and down the menu as well as numerical selection. They are not very hard to figure out, but I agree that it would be nice to have more standardization, for example, in the way to "go back" to the previous menu (sometimes it's ESC, sometimes "u", sometimes "q", sometimes a control character). One trend that may help is that some remote programs are being replaced by client/server systems that are operated via the local system's standard pull-down menus. However, client/server systems are much harder to write, and you would (presumably) need a different client program for every server, vs a single vt100 terminal program for everything. Tom O'Haver U. of Matyland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 09:37:48 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper 15 discussion I expected there would be some short questions to answer on this paper. In the absence of these, let me take a stab at the basic question: Why is it worth the time it takes to write and use "control files"? >From the discussion of paper 9 we are aware that computers are changing the ways we think and the ways we do our jobs. My conclusion from that discussion is that we must show our students computers in action even if we don't have the best programs and software. A few of us have had to learn programming to keep up in our research. If one is at the forefront of a research area the programs must be changed and improved to accomplish the next step. We are in this position now for teaching if we agree that being a scientist in 2000 is considerably different from what it was in 1980. However teachers in general do not have time to learn programming languages like FORTRAN or C. It might be possible to learn BASIC with an interpreter and use compiled BASIC for the really big jobs. But when I put together a good CAI system in interpreted BASIC and found that it was just too slow to keep student interest I dropped that approach. I now believe that building and editing control files using menus is worth the effort of learning. Why? 1. The time investment can be minimal. High school science teachers and freshman students can learn to use a 15 item menu to build control programs in under three hours. 2. They are easy to share. Control programs can be limited to the subset of ASCII characters which can be sent over e-mail with no problems. They can be easily modified and improved. 3. They can be kept short enough to be understood. Complex jobs can be accomplished by nesting short control programs. 4. They can be built so they can be read by people as well as by machines. The program to write my name in large letters on the computer screen in the latest version (RUNRN.EXE) is: PRint MessaGe 0 1 1 4 0. 0. Reed A. Howald PaUse @ 0 0 0 0 0. 0. x StoP @ 0 0 0 0 0. 0. x 5. There is no limit to what we can accomplish if we work together on this. Sincerely, Reed Howald "uchrh@terra.oscs.montana.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 11:46:07 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 15: Lab programming systems >> How does one control a computer for the collection of experimental >> data in an instructional chemistry laboratory? > >For professional industrial applications, the answer is >increasingly some sort of graphical flow-chart type of programming >system. The most successful and widely used example of is National >Instrument's LabView system, which I have seen in use in several >chemical research and industrial labs for instrument control and data >acquisition applications. The advantange of such systems over >conventional programming is that they don't require programming >skills, which most chemists don't have. For the same reason, I >have heard that LabView has been used in some introductory >chemistry laboratories. It must be admited, however, that LabView >requires modern hardware, whereas the approach described in Paper 15 >has the advantage of working on older (earlier 80's vintage) >hardware, which many schools still have. Programs such as LabView alow the end user to use what is known as object oriented programing - thenew wave in programming at the more basic level as well as this user friendly (relatively speaking) data acquisition system. Furthr to earlier questions onthenecessityof "programing languages" this is the route of "programing" for the "profssionals" as well as "students". Binary, octal or hexadecimal machine or assembly language programing was used in theold days as the only way to get the necessary speed out of the computer to do what the chemist needed. Today's RISC chips and 68040 or 486's or pentium chips can go so much faster than the A?D systems or the dwell time of counters etc. that the need for programing at this level is no longer required even in very sophisticated $100,000 data systems on mass specs and nmrs. High level programs in Fortran or C or even C++ (object oriented) can deal with 1MHz acquisition rates of relatively cheap UNIX RISC workstations. > >> Control files are ordinarily in unreadable binary.... > >Why would that be? Text files are ordinarily much easier to >create, read, write, and edit that binary files. Why would >anyone every use a binary file for such a task? If you try to do it with obsolete hardware -- see above. > >Tom O'Haver >U. of Maryland Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 11:57:34 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Paper 15: standard menu systems >In the discussion of an earlier paper Reed Howald said: > >> I am frustrated with menus that require mice, but we can and >> should provide menu eccess to computer information and control >> in a standard way. >> ... the use of standard menus is ... the key to easy access.... > >Microcomputer software (i.e. software that runs on your local >desktop machine) has already adopted a de-facto standard menu >configuration. Every new operating system and environment >introduced since the middle 1980's has used pull-down menus with >at least a File menu (usually containing New, Open, Save, Save >as, Print, and Quit or eXit) and an Edit menu (containing Undo, >Cut, Copy, and Paste). Other menus vary according to the >program. Such menus can be pointer or keyboard selected. Almost >every program, even some running in character mode, comply >with these standards. Modern programming languages, and even >spreadsheet macros and software construction kits for non- >programmers, have built-in facilities for creating and >modyfying standard pull-down menus. > >Software that runs on a remote host and is accessed via vt100 >terminal emulation is less standardized, but most of the ones >I've seen allow cursor key movement up and down the menu as well >as numerical selection. They are not very hard to figure out, >but I agree that it would be nice to have more standardization, >for example, in the way to "go back" to the previous menu >(sometimes it's ESC, sometimes "u", sometimes "q", sometimes a >control character). One trend that may help is that some remote >programs are being replaced by client/server systems that are >operated via the local system's standard pull-down menus. >However, client/server systems are much harder to write, and you >would (presumably) need a different client program for every >server, vs a single vt100 terminal program for everything. > >Tom O'Haver >U. of Matyland With the increasing power of PCs and Macs it is now feasible to run X-window emulation on these desktop machines so that you can have on the desktop the same environment you would have if you were running thepackage on a graphical workstation or an X-terminal connected to it. Since ethernet (10Mhz) runs over the same twisted pair wiring we used to use for 300-2400 BAUD VT100 terminals, old networks using such slow standards can relatively cheaply be upgraded. In an ethernet or equivalent environment the windowing questionis simplified, but only if you wrote windows based software to start with -- if you are still writng comand line interface software of the 60s and 70s -- easier towrite but much less productive to use -- then a major shift in thinking is required. Back to the questionof an earlier paper - do you learn to program in Fortran and re-invent thewheel or use a moder GUI based package that you modify toeet your needs. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 12:01:18 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: paper 15 discussion >I expected there would be some short questions to answer on this paper. In the >absence of these, let me take a stab at the basic question: Why is it worth >the time it takes to write and use "control files"? > >>From the discussion of paper 9 we are aware that computers are changing the >ways we think and the ways we do our jobs. My conclusion from that discussion >is that we must show our students computers in action even if we don't have the >best programs and software. > >A few of us have had to learn programming to keep up in our research. If one >is at the forefront of a research area the programs must be changed and >improved to accomplish the next step. We are in this position now for teaching >if we agree that being a scientist in 2000 is considerably different from what >it was in 1980. However teachers in general do not have time to learn >programming languages like FORTRAN or C. It might be possible to learn BASIC >with an interpreter and use compiled BASIC for the really big jobs. But when I >put together a good CAI system in interpreted BASIC and found that it was just >too slow to keep student interest I dropped that approach. I now believe that >building and editing control files using menus is worth the effort of learning. > >Why? > >1. The time investment can be minimal. High school science teachers and >freshman students can learn to use a 15 item menu to build control programs in >under three hours. > >2. They are easy to share. Control programs can be limited to the subset of >ASCII characters which can be sent over e-mail with no problems. They can be >easily modified and improved. > >3. They can be kept short enough to be understood. Complex jobs can be >accomplished by nesting short control programs. > >4. They can be built so they can be read by people as well as by machines. The >program to write my name in large letters on the computer screen in the latest >version (RUNRN.EXE) is: > >PRint MessaGe 0 1 1 4 0. 0. Reed A. Howald >PaUse @ 0 0 0 0 0. 0. x >StoP @ 0 0 0 0 0. 0. x > >5. There is no limit to what we can accomplish if we work together on this. > >Sincerely, >Reed Howald >"uchrh@terra.oscs.montana.edu" Students will be bored to tearscompared to the so much more advanced stuff they would get in other courses or from other departments. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 12:02:34 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: paper 15 discussion ours. > >2. They are easy to share. Control programs can be limited to the subset of >ASCII characters which can be sent over e-mail with no problems. They can be >easily modified and improved. > Fully formated chemistry manuscripts can be exchanged by e-mail so why the worry over simple ASCII subsets -- see earlier discussions. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 11:26:25 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper 15 binary, Labview, subscripts, etc. >Control files are ordinarily in unreadable binary >Why would that be? Binary is the direct language of computers. Thus almost all compilers produce binary output. So that's the way things are now, by default. Also some programmers don't want people to have access to the programming, and distribute only binary executable code. I agree, the kind of control files we want must be readable by people as well as by the machines. I agree that windows control of instrumentation in systems like LabView is wonderful. There is however a need for a cheaper and simpler system. Subscripts The biggest problem in sharing exam questions by e-mail in chemistry is what to do with subscripts and superscripts. Unfortunately every word processor and most printers use different coding for this. The simplest dot matrix printers use an escape character followed by a particular letter to move the paper up or down half a line. I can build ASCII files with this coding, but I can't send and receive files with the escape character in them by e-mail. Our current departmental software uses [ and ] as in H[2]PO[4]]-[ for the down and up movements, and this is okay if you don't need those characters. Jack Martin Miller says that there are standards here. What are they? What we need are agreed standards. I would like to put into RUNRN.EXE shifts up and down on the screen coded in some "agreed standard" form. Then we can get printer drivers to interpret this correctly also. Jack Martin Miller also comments on "If you try to do it with obsolete hardware". I am impressed with the future of multimedia, with complete computer control of optical systems and high definition television. I would like to be supported by the likes of IBM with such hardware and software. But what I learned years ago at an ACS meeting is that the common people in education can only afford something after it has become a business success. If you don't have a computer controlled CDROM in your lecture room you can still do a good job with videocassettes and short clips, and with any IBM compatible to do demonstration experiments. The titration of phosphoric acid with base can be perfomed in front of a class as fast as the base flows from a buret (or separatory funnel fitted with a finer tip) as fast and I think better than a computed simulation. >students will be bored to tears I agree that students expect visual excitement. Color is almost a necessity now, although we chose monochrome monitors for our freshman laboratories 6 years ago and are currently stuck there. We need lots more pictures and graphs. I am putting gray scale pictures from a Canon video still camera into the p-chem laboratory manual now. I am working on the display of color pictures on computer screens. Unfortunately this is another area where there is not enough standardization. The program still crashes on some systems. But I am not too worried about boring students if we can keep the systems simple enough that they can play with them. We may get flashing obscene messages on our computer screens if we show them how to write there own name in large letters across the screen, but they will learn faster than us old fogies. Reed Howald "uchrh@terra.oscs.montana.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 13:50:47 EDT From: "R. T. Wilson" Subject: Paper 15 Discussion Reed, I am still a little uncertain about exactly who is using your stuff and what they are doing with it. If it is being used in general chemistry, what are the students'majors, how many students are there, how many computers are there, what experiments are they used for, when do they use the computers, and what kind of output do they generate? Could you elaborate a little on some of these details? Terrell Wilson Department of Chemistry Virginia Military Institute Lexington, Virginia 24450 e-mail: fchwilson%faculty%vmi@ist.vmi.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 14:18:41 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: paper 15 binary, Labview, subscripts, etc. In response to Reed Howard >>Control files are ordinarily in unreadable binary >>Why would that be? > >Binary is the direct language of computers. Thus almost all compilers produce >binary output. So that's the way things are now, by default. Also some >programmers don't want people to have access to the programming, and distribute >only binary executable code. Almost every vendor of scientific equipment will make available the interface coding in a higher level language or offer a module that lets you alter the interface parameters. Those that say they won't actually will if you refuse to buy their equipment unless they do so. The only exceptions that I know of are for some EPA mandated routines. In some cases however, the acquisition programing is firmware -- burned into EPROMS in the instrument but even there you can sometimes get access. If they are only available in binary, you as a researcher may have to read them, but it is pointless to teach it to your undergraduates. I agree, the kind of control files we want must >be readable by people as well as by the machines. > >I agree that windows control of instrumentation in systems like LabView is >wonderful. There is however a need for a cheaper and simpler system. Simpler you won't find if you want it to do real work. I agree "cheaper" is needed and there are cheaper menu driven alternatives that are less flexiblethan LabView, typically being aimed at a specific technique. It also depends on whether you are after instrument control or just data acquisition. The latter is easy and cheap and many programs have interfaces which typically tie in with a standard spreadsheet package which is used for the calculation and plotting. Many are available. > >Subscripts >The biggest problem in sharing exam questions by e-mail in chemistry is what to >do with subscripts and superscripts. Unfortunately every word processor and >most printers use different coding for this. The simplest dot matrix printers >use an escape character followed by a particular letter to move the paper up or >down half a line. I can build ASCII files with this coding, but I can't send >and receive files with the escape character in them by e-mail. Our current >departmental software uses [ and ] as in H[2]PO[4]]-[ for the down and up >movements, and this is okay if you don't need those characters. Jack Martin >Miller says that there are standards here. What are they? What we need are >agreed standards. I would like to put into RUNRN.EXE shifts up and down on the >screen coded in some "agreed standard" form. Then we can get printer drivers >to interpret this correctly also. The defacto standards are out there and have nothing to do with the printer codes. What printer you print to is taken care of by the installed printer drivers inyour computer of for DOS with the word processor you are using. The document contains generic code of the word processor, not generic to the printer if you use 1990's software. Defacto is relative but somewhere between 80 and 90% (if I remember corectly) of the PC and MAC word processing is done with Word Perfect or MS Word. They can read each other's files and Macs can read and write PC compatible files. The printer is not defined by the file that you exchange but is chosen on your Mac or PC. You are talking computers that cost only a little over $1,000. and academic prices for the Word Processors is in the range of $100. or less! No reason to use LaTEX or old ASCII word processors. There are standards on most campuses for use in University labs so students can gain access even if they don't have their own computer, or you offer the hard copy option. >Jack Martin Miller also comments on "If you try to do it with obsolete >hardware". I was referring to the necessity of binary acquisition coding. >I am impressed with the future of multimedia, with complete computer control of >optical systems and high definition television. I would like to be supported >by the likes of IBM with such hardware and software. But what I learned years >ago at an ACS meeting is that the common people in education can only afford >something after it has become a business success. If you don't have a computer >controlled CDROM in your lecture room you can still do a good job with >videocassettes and short clips, and with any IBM compatible to do demonstration >experiments. The titration of phosphoric acid with base can be perfomed in >front of a class as fast as the base flows from a buret (or separatory funnel >fitted with a finer tip) as fast and I think better than a computed simulation. > >>students will be bored to tears > >I agree that students expect visual excitement. Color is almost a necessity >now, although we chose monochrome monitors for our freshman laboratories 6 >years ago and are currently stuck there. We need lots more pictures and >graphs. I am putting gray scale pictures from a Canon video still camera into >the p-chem laboratory manual now. I am working on the display of color >pictures on computer screens. Unfortunately this is another area where there >is not enough standardization. The program still crashes on some systems. But >I am not too worried about boring students if we can keep the systems simple >enough that they can play with them. We may get flashing obscene messages on >our computer screens if we show them how to write there own name in large >letters across the screen, but they will learn faster than us old fogies. Students will be bored if Chemists teach in antiquated ASCII when biologists and geologists and Physicists and computer scientists and mathemeticians are all using GUIs, and any computer hacker will see the text based stuff as things they did in grade 8. Even if it works pedagogically, which I doubt, since todays students are forever asking about relevance and how it will help them get jobs, if we make Chemistry look like an antiquated discipline we will loose our best students to Physics and biology. It is nothing to do with colour, but everything to do with output that looks like it was printed by an old teletype on newsprint in line after line of unformatted nearly unreadable text. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 14:27:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 15: Lab programming systems In-Reply-To: <9308121613.AA20238@umd5.umd.edu> > "Control files are ordinarily in unreadable binary..." Can you define exactly what you mean by a "control file"? How does a control file differ from an executable binary? I am a little confused, because it is not, to my knowledge, a standard term. I get the idea from your paper (Paper 15) that control files are something like "scripts" or "macros" or "source code files", that are written by the user in order to "tell their computers what it is that they want the computers to do". Such files are not useful by themselves - they are not stand-alone executable files - but rather they require processing by a compiler or interpreter, which is itself a stand-alone executable binary. In almost all programming environments I am aware of, the scripts, macros, or source code files are TEXT files, not binary files. As an example, take a familiar commercial general-purpose programming environment such as Turbo Pascal. The Turbo Pascal compiler itself is an executable binary, with a file name that has an ".EXE" extension. The programs that you write in the Turbo Pascal language - the "control" files, as you put it - are TEXT files, not binary files. So, whereas the compiler itself is an executabel binary - the "direct language of computers" - the "control files" are naturally in text - the direct language of humans. That is why I am confused by your statement that "Control files are ordinarily in unreadable binary..." Tom O'Haver, U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 14:11:40 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: paper 15 discussion control files >exactly what do you mean by a "control file"? I mean by a "control file" a computer file which tells the computer what to do. At present most such files are the executable binary from compilers. As such they are difficult to change: one must edit the source code and recompile. I mean by "menu driven programming" writing simpler text "control files" which let teachers supply instructions to computers without endless syntax errors. >I am still a little uncertain about exactly who is using "your" stuff and what they are doing with it. I describe two generations of control files in the paper. The first one is not mine, although I was one of fifteen or so people who helped in its development. This software is now licensed by Montana State University to SCI Technologies Inc. It is limited to controlling the interfaces they make and some older versions, but it is quite widely used. I use it in p-chem lab for about two thirds of the experiments the students do in 16 student laboratories. It is used in our two large general chemistry laboratories, in laboratory rooms with 11 computers and 20 students working in pairs. There are well over 100 of these instruments in Montana schools, with maybe half of them in active use. The chemistry 121, 131, and 132 classes here involve all majors and about 900 or more students each semester. We have 5 laboratory rooms with computers each of which can be scheduled for up to 15 three hour laboratories a week. Here are the current chem 131 experiments: 1. getting started (introduction to DOS, introduction to the MSU interface system, using the spreadsheet, designing an experiment-the thermistor as a measuring device, and a temperature measurement-boiling point of pentane 2. live graphs, spreadsheets, and amtifreeze 3. matches, flames, and light in chemistry (using a photocell and a block colorimeter) 4. qualitative analysis 5. quantitative analysis 6. flames, heat, calories, and specific heat 7. heats of solution 8. periodicity: a database exploration 9. molecular geometry 10. Boyle's law and Charles' law 11. phase changes of carbon dioxide 12. individual projects experiments 4, 5 and 9 make essentially no computer use, and 8 uses KCDISCOVER but doesn't involve the interfaces. Computer collection of data with control files is central in the other eight experiments (and projects). In the p-chem lab we use the same interfaces and software for colorimetry, potentiometry, and thermodynamics of the hydrophobic interaction. Adding a conductance cell and a pressure sensor allows additional experiments on conductance, kinetics of hydrolysis, enzymatic decomposition of hydrogen peroxide, vapor pressure, and the gas law. I use 50 temperature measurements taken with a thermistor in the first experiment to introduce errors and standard deviation. There are just a few experiments like density and the spectrophotometry of iodine in the p-chem lab that don't yet involve interfacing and computer collection of data. Version 2 is under development and is not currently being used except by me. RUNRN.EXE is being freely distributed with this conference, and will soon be available as shareware from Montana Interface Incorporated, P. O. box 6567, Bozeman MT 59771. It is not too late to specify additional features you would like to see incorporated into this software. sincerely, Reed Howald "uchrh@terra.oscs.montana.edu" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 08:08:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: REVISED EVALUATION FORM Subject: PLEASE SAVE THIS MESSAGE To: ALL CHEMCONF '93 PARTICIPANTS From: Thomas O'Haver Conference Organizer and Manager 301-405-1831 TO2@UMAIL.UMD.EDU and Donald Rosenthal Chair, ACS Division of Chemical Education's Committee on Computers in Chemical Education 315-265-9242 ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET Re: REVISED EVALUATION OF THE COMPUTER CONFERENCE Date: August 12, 1993 A conference evaluation form is appended. We view the Conference evaluation process to be as important as the Conference itself. We would appreciate knowing the extent to which you participated, what you liked and didn't like, and what suggestions you may have for future meetings. Please fill out the form and return it AFTER the conference. EVEN IF YOU DID NOT PARTICIPATE OR ONLY PARTICIPATED TO A SLIGHT EXTENT, FILL OUT AND RETURN THIS FORM. WE ARE INTERESTED IN OBTAINING THE PROFILE OF THE AVERAGE VIEWER - YOU ARE A PART OF THIS AVERAGE. IN ORDER TO MAKE THIS MEETING AVAILABLE TO A WIDER SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION WE ARE CONSIDERING PUBLISHING PORTIONS OR ALL OF THIS MEETING INCLUDING THE PAPERS AND DISCUSSION. WE MAY WISH TO INCLUDE YOUR PAPER OR DISCUSSION. PLEASE USE THIS REVISION ************************ OF THE EARLIER FORM AND INDICATE IN QUESTION 26 WHETHER WE HAVE YOUR ******************* PERMISSION. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ EVALUATION FORM FOR CHEMCONF '93 1. NAME ________________________________ DATE _________________________ 2. ADDRESS AT WORK _____________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________ 3. TITLE AT WORK ______________________ (e.g. Professor, Teacher, etc.) 4. ELECTRONIC MAIL ADDRESS ________________ 5. DO YOU HAVE ACCESS TO INTERNET? _________ 6. COURSES YOU TEACH ___________________________________________________ 7. COMPUTER EXPERTISE ______ (1 to 5) 1 Beginner, 3 Average, 5 Expert 8. FACILITY USING ELECTRONIC MAIL ______ (On scale from 1 to 5) 9. Hardware used for e-mail ____________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STATISTICS SESSION 1 ----------- PAPER NUMBER ----------- - 1 - - 2 - - 3 - - 4 - - 5 - 10. READ All,Most or None _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 11. TIME SPENT READING PAPER (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 12. Number of times you accessed discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 13. Number of times you asked questions or participated in discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 14. Amount of time you devoted to the discussion (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 15. Total Time Devoted (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SESSION 2 ----------- PAPER NUMBER ----------- - 6 - - 7 - - 8 - - 9 - - 10- 10. READ All,Most or None _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 11. TIME SPENT READING PAPER (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 12. Number of times you accessed discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 13. Number of times you asked questions or participated in discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 14. Amount of time you devoted to the discussion (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 15. Total Time Devoted (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SESSION 3 ----------- PAPER NUMBER ----------- - 11- - 12- - 13- - 14- - 15- 10. READ All,Most or None _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 11. TIME SPENT READING PAPER (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 12. Number of times you accessed discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 13. Number of times you asked questions or participated in discussion _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 14. Amount of time you devoted to the discussion (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 15. Total Time Devoted (in hours) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EVALUATION Evaluation - Scale 1 to 5 - 1 is Poor, 3 is Average and 5 is excellent 16. Overall evaluation of papers ____ 17. Overall evaluation of discussion _____ 18. Overall evaluation of trial meeting ____ 19. I consider Paper #____ best. Evaluation (1 to 5) ____ 20. I considered the discussion of Paper #____ best. Evaluation (1 to 5) ____ 21. Explain your answers to Questions 19 and 20 ________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 22. What did you like most about the computer conference? ______________ ________________________________________________________________________ 23. What did you like least about the computer conference? _____________ ________________________________________________________________________ 24. What changes could be made to improve the computer conference? (Papers, Short Question Sessions, Discussion Sessions, etc.) ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 25. Compare this Conference with the usual conference. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 26. ___ Yes ___ No You have my permission to publish my Paper # ___ ___ Yes ___ No You have my permissission to publish my Short Questions and Discussion 27. Other suggestions and recommendations ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ (Continue if you need more space) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please return this form to Thomas O'Haver (TO2@UMAIL.UMD.EDU) between August 16 and August 20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- We hope this will be the first of many conferences. Topics for future computer conferences are not restricted to chemical education. A Conference on Chemometrics is planned for October 1994. Please contact Tom O'Haver after August 20 if you are interested in organizing a conference. CHEMCONF and LISTSERV will be available for future use. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 09:20:28 -0500 From: "Alfred J. Lata" Subject: Paper 14 Simulation I concur with Rosenthal and Woolcock: >* If this program serves as a substitute for running an actual kinetic >* experiment, I have some of the same reservations as those expressed >* by John Woolcock: >> 6. For me an experiment simulation is . . . "the next best thing". >> They are better than nothing at all . . . > >* Chemistry is a laboratory science and I believe that simulations are >* usually a poor substitute for actual laboratory experience. >* Having said that, I still believe simulations can be very useful. Simulations (and other computer activities) have their place, and their place should be recognized: both the right place and the wrong place. Those activities, such as simulations, which cannot be done in another more effective way (or cannot be done at all!) : simulations of dangerous compounds or equipment, or probhibitively expense equipment. Further, the opportunity to introduce an experiment more effectively and efficiently than in another method (would film or TV be better: is it available). Another principle of simulation is to give the student the opportunity to examine other situations, or (important!!) practice the logic of a 'system' which has been examined previously in lab (qual, IR or NMR analysis) in a time-efficient manner. As has been stated before, and effectively: Chemistry is an Experimental Science. What goes into the book comes from the laboratory. There are aspects of our science that can only be realized in the laboratory, altho we endeavour to simulate these (random errors, etc.), altho how do you simulate (with impunity) the wrong reagent?(the student will say "I would never do that!!") Brenda Laurel, in her book 'The Computer as Theater' has the phrase "the experience of failure". We all learn from our mistakes: students assume that mistakes should, and are, never made. "And the worst offenders here are teachers, who present crisp, clean batches of knowledge to their student, and look as if they themselves learned that knowledge in a crisp, clean way. It didn't happen that way, but the teachers don't admist it, and the students groan inwardly, feeling so hopelessly dumb." Pamela McCorduck "Machines Who Think" Freeman 1979 quoting Seymour Papert (spelling 'admist' = 'admit') Alfred J. Lata Dept of Chemistry Univ of Kansas, Lawrence KS lata@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 09:17:13 -0700 From: Stephen Lower Subject: Re: paper 15 subscripts >The biggest problem in sharing exam questions by e-mail in chemistry is what to >do with subscripts and superscripts. Unfortunately every word processor and >most printers use different coding for this. >Miller says that there are standards here. What are they? What we need are >agreed standards. I would like to put into RUNRN.EXE shifts up and down on the >screen coded in some "agreed standard" form. [Reed Howald] There IS a standard, known as SGML (standard generalized markup language). Unfortunately, its use seems to be restricted to the commercial publishing industry; if there is software available for converting between SGML and ordinary word processor files, I am not aware of it. There are also some de-facto standards: TeX/LaTeX, which some people love to dismiss as obsolete, 1980's technology, is still widely used for distribution of scientific documents worldwide (I use it for sharing some of the text materials I have developed and have placed on our ftp server), and it is implemented on virtually every type of computer. PostScript is yet another working standard. Of course none of these addresses the problem of screen display (except Display PostScript, which I presume is still a part of NextStep for the PC). ---------- Steve Lower - Vancouver, Canada Dept of Chemistry - Simon Fraser University - Burnaby BC V5A 1S6 lower@sfu.ca 604-291-3353 FAX: 604-291-3765 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1993 06:49:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: General discussion period now open. COMPUTER CONFERENCE ON APPLICATIONS OF TECHNOLOGY IN TEACHING CHEMISTRY I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank everyone who has been involved in this conference: the authors, for their thought- provoking papers; the participants, for their stimulating discussion; the Committe of Computers in Chemical Education, for their sponsorship; and the University of Maryland Computer Science Center, for its generous computer support. I believe that this has been a very successful experiment indeed. The next conference planned for the CHEMCONF conference system is the International Chemometrics InterNet Conference (InCINC), scheduled for October of 1994. For further information, contact Barry M. Wise Molecular Science Research Center K2-12, Battelle Pacific Northwest Laboratories, P.O. Box 999, Richland, WA 99352 (bm_wise@CCMAIL.PNL.GOV). Prof. Thomas C. O'Haver CHEMCONF organizer and manager Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1993 15:40:34 -0400 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Paper 14 Simulation I believe some of the recent discussion concerning the use of simulations is interesting given the audience, i.e. people interested in applying modern technology to chemistry education. The discussion has seemed to me to focus on when not to apply simulations (don't replace "real" laboratory experiments with the simulations). I believe the more interesting questions are 1) What considerations are most important in designing a useful simulation experiment?, 2) Where in the curriculum can simulations be used to greatest advantage? 3) What part of the laboratory curriculum can be sacrificed in order to add simulations ? (there are some bad general chemistry labs that ARE NOT better than good simulation experiments). 4) How can lecture and lab be better integrated by the application of computer technology? (I wonder if this distinction-lecture classes and laboratory classes in chemistry, isn't an artifact from a bygone era). While some of these ideas have been mentioned in the discussion, there has been little elaboration. Instead the discussion has focused on the perceived inadequacies of simulations. I don't believe anyone would advocate doing only simulations in lab, but I believe their place in the curriculum is wider than many of the comments suggest. Simulations are an important laboratory technique, they will become even more important in the future, Our courses should reflect this by including simulations as standard parts of all courses, not as a novelty or a next best thing as many have suggested. George Long Indiana University of PA. GRLONG@grove.iup.edu or IUP.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1993 17:21:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Paper 14 Simulation In-Reply-To: <9308141941.AA01913@umd5.umd.edu> Personally, I love computer simulations. Writing a good one really forces you to think clearly and quantitatively about the inner operations of experiments and measurements. I always come away with a deeper appreciation of the fine points. > Where in the curriculum can simulations be used to greatest > advantage? Simulations are best when they are better in some way than reality. One of the big problems in chemistry is that so much is invisible. Most actual laboratory experiments show only the outer, macro-level effects, leaving you to imagine the inner workings. A simulation can sometimes show the inner workings in a way that a real experiment can not. I teach a course in spectrochemical analysis, where we cover atomic absorption. One of the difficulties is understanding how the spectroscopic properties of the light source, atom cell, spectrometer, and detector relate to each other and to the measured absorbance. In particular, the spectroscopic effects of background absorption and the various methods for background correction are especially difficult to visualize. So I wrote an atomic absorption simulation which shows the (simulated) emission, absorption and transmission spectra on which the measured absorbance is based. Using a simple direct-manipulation interface, students observe the relation of the hollow cathode lamp emission profile and the atomic absorption profile, observe the effect of changing line widths, attempt correction of background absorption by the continuum-source method, discover the overcorrection caused by structured background absorption, and investigate the effect of non-absorbing lines, line-overlap interferences, finite line widths and hyperfine structure. In this case a weakness of a real instrument is that it can not show absorption spectra (since the hollow cathode lamp can't be tuned and the resolution of the spectrometer is low). So the simulation is actually clearer than the real thing. Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1993 20:57:19 -0400 From: Judith Faye Rubinson Subject: Re: Paper 14 Simulation I agree with George Long's comment that there are situations where simulations are not only as useful, but are better that wet labs. Some examples I have found are pH vs component fraction for di- and triprotic acids, electrochemical mechanisms, pM-pH or pM-pX diagrams, effect of temperature on excited state populations for spectroscopy, and effects of variations in A,B, and C in gas chromatography HETP calculations. In such cases, simulations allow control of one variable separately from all others--something that is not so easy for most real systems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1993 10:13:39 CDT From: Brad Thompson Subject: Re: Simulation IMHO there's an important place for simulations in the entire picture of a chemistry course or program. When a student does a lab experiment or sees a demonstration, his/her attention will be on the details of what is done. This is proper -- attention to detail is an important part of what scientists do. However, the "why" of what is done is often not as clear. A part of that "why" involves how the particular experiment fits into a larger picture. The right kind of simulation can allow "experimentation" over a much wider range of variables and situations than can ever be exerienced in lab or lecture. This gets us to another part of the simulation discussion: Should simulations be "realistic", as to what's observed, the detail needed to "do" it, etc., OR should they be made more "user friendly"? As long as the "or" is in the preceding question my answer is NO! There's a place for quite precise imitations of the exerimental environment, and there's a place for programs that allow a rapid testing of lots of ground. Suppose we "covered" less in our first courses, but gave some challenging problems which students could explore, first with programs that simulated ranges of conditions, etc., and then, when they had learned some of the why's, with lab experiments or more precise simulations as safety and other requirements dictated? Wouldn't our students learn more about being a scientist? H. Bradford Thompson [Brad] Scholar in Residence, Chemistry & Physics bradt@gac.edu Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, Minnesota 56082 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1993 15:48:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Paper 14 - Simulations Paper 14 - Discussion of Simulation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 > Date: Wednesday, August 11 10:10 EDT > From Donald Rosenthal > > I used to teach an advanced undergraduate - graduate course entitled > "The Analysis of Experimental Data". The course involved numerical > and statistical analysis - consideration of errors - the testing of > hypotheses and the design of experiments. > . . . a kinetic simulation program was > developed involving the hydrolysis of p-methylphenyl formate. > Students used my program (KESIP - KinEtic SImulation Program) for a > month and were asked to prepare a report summarizing the results of > their study. I considered it to be an important part of the course. > I thought it had considerable pedagogic value. The program and its use was discussed in an article: "Simulation of Experimental Data, the Design of Experiments, and the Analysis of Results" Donald Rosenthal and David Arnold, J. Chem. Educ., 54(5), 323-325 (1977). Donald Rosenthal Box 5810 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1993 19:46:07 -0400 From: HARRY PENCE Subject: Paper 14 - Discussion of Simulations I strongly agree with many of the points which Theresa Zielinski made in her recent post. I won't repeat them (since I can't improve on most of them), but I would like to emphasize one idea. Simulations have become an essential part of chemical research. Unfortunately, it students don't spontaneously understand simulations, and so they deserve a place in the curriculum where first we teach our students what they are all about and then we ask the students to use simulations to answer specific questions. Tom O'Haver and others have commented that students don't tend to be willing to explore a simulation. I think part of the problem is the fact that we're (including myself) don't really understand fully how to teach the concept of a simulation. It's so clear to us, but it isn't that simple to our students. I'd love to have some comments on how people introduce the idea of a simulation into their lectures before they students actually have to use one for lab or homework. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Harry E. Pence BITNET: PENCEHE@SNYONEVA | | Professor of Chemistry PHONE: 607-436-3179 | | SUNY Oneonta FAX: 607-436-2107 | | Oneonta, NY 13820 | ____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 10:47:49 +1000 From: Damon Ridley Subject: Re: REVISED EVALUATION FORM 1. Damon Ridley 16 August 2. School of Chemistry, Univ Sydney NSW 2006 Australia 3. Professor 4. ridley_d@summer.chem.su.oz.au 5. yes 6. organic chemistry - all years 7. 3 (average) to 4 8. regular daily user since mid 80's 9. Macintosh IIci All other questions: I was at conferences overseas June-early Uly (ACS, Montana, then Macrocyclic Chem, Enschede, Holland) and when I returned I had 180 e-mail messages (most from conference online). Basically this phased me out and I never got into the swing of things. I was aware that I could blank out discussion perionds, but never got around to it. The paper which most interested me was paper 12 (organic chemistry), but as of today I have yet to get the opportunity to read all the details. I have, however, copied all information and I leave for the U.S. on Wednesday and will read it al on the plane. After all, it's 13 hours non-stop from Sydney to LA! I guess that I am just too busy when I am here in Sydney and just don't have time to cope with endless e-mail. (Besides teaching and research, I am Pro-Dean of Faculty of Science - a huge position, and indeed have been Dean these last two weeks). The other reasons for my non-involvement have related mainly to the fact that I am an organic chemist and paper 12 was the only one vaguely in my are of interest. I really don't have time nor the expertise to think about non-organic matters. I did, however, copy some of the info for my non-organic colleagues but they haven't been back to me with comments. So basically I will spend about 5 hours on paper 12 and precious little on the other papers. 22. I am quite enthusiastic about the concept of such conferences, it is just that this one came at a bad time and nearly all of the papers didn't interest me. 23. I should have blanked out time periods of interest. as it was I just trashed most of the discussion (apart from paper 12) (that is, after trying to catch up with the initial backlog - see above). 24. I think the organisation of the conference was excellent and cannot think of what else one could do. 25. Two problems with this type of conference a. it is hard to give full attention to a conferenced a while at the same time keeping on with usual work. As it is I work 60+ hours a week. b. the social, informal parts of a usual conference were missing. Other I am very interested in teaching Organic Chemistry at all levels (including its promotion to secondary schools and to the general public) and indeed have been given a teaching excellence award from Sydney Univ. This has led to many openings in teaching organic chemistry. Currently I am very much involved with a "Talented Students Program" in Chemistry in which the top students each year are given much less formal courses (and quite different and innovative practical work). I would be interested in a conference on teaching in organic chemistry (paper 12 goes into this in part, although I have many interesting extensions working here in Sydney). So I look forward to reading all the discussions relating to paper 12 and perhaps will follow up a few things later. I shall be at ACS Chicago (Hotel Marriott) and would welcome talking to anyone involved with the conference (the online one). So I am sorry I did not contribute more on this occasion. Perhaps next time. Regards, Damon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1993 22:04:36 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Paper 14 - Discussion of Simulations In-Reply-To: <9308152345.AA22780@umd5.umd.edu> Dear Harry, Organic Chemistry students need to know how to interpret NMR Spectra. We do not have an instrument, and rely on printed spectra or excellent NMR spectrum simulation computer programs to teach spectral analysis. However, learning seems to be difficult. Because I suspected that the lack of an actual instrument might be part of the problem, I am developing in interactive computer program which features quick-time movies of the instrument and researchers from the Texas Medical Center who explain both the instrument parts, how to run a sample, and spectral intrepretation. It is my hope that after working with this program, the students will learn faster using the spectral interpretation programs. The program will be ready for use in the fall semester with my organic chemistry class. I have received great assistance from our Office of Information Technology with the development of this multimedia program. Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 07:14:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Simulations Do simulations belong in general chemistry? Or do students require some degree of scientific maturity before they can appreciate and profit from simulations? Alperson and O'Neil (Alperson, Jay R., and O'Neil, Dennis H., "The Boxscore: Tutorials 2, Simulations 0", Academic Computing, 1990, 4:5 February, 18-19 and 47-49.) performed a comparative evaluation of the effectiveness of tutorial and simulation formats in teaching lower division undergraduate students in anthropology and psychology. They found that beginning students learn more from tutorials than from simulations, based on multiple-choice test scores and student evaluations. They conclude that simulations are more effective for upper division undergraduate and graduate students who already know the fundamentals of the discipline, who are more self-motivated and who have the required conceptual framework to direct their own learning. Weyh and Crook (Weyh, John A. and Crook, Joseph R., "CAI Drill and Practice: is it really that bad?", Academic Computing, 1988, 2:7, June, 32-36 and 52-54) found that the use of well-designed drill and practice programs significantly improved test scores in an introductory chemistry course dealing with writing and balancing equations, stoichiometric relationships, and chemical equilibrium. Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 08:14:34 MDT Reply-To: bagaddis@uccs.edu From: bagaddis@HAPPY.UCCS.EDU Subject: Re: Paper 14 - Discussion of Simulations I am very much interested in learning details about your venture into interactive NMR programs using QuickTime. What kind of videocard are you using? Did you videotape segments first and then clip them into QuickTime? Or record right on the computer? How much memory and what kind of computer are you using to develop this program? What storage media are you using -- aren't the QT files too big for floppies? Exactly how did the Office of Info. Tech. help you with this project? How will the students use the program -- as a supplement to lab or lecture? As an assigned lab project? What authoring program was this developed in? It sounds like a great idea. Will this program be available for others to use or to purchase? I am looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks. Barbara Gaddis Science Learning Center U. C.C.S/ Colorado Springs, CO 80933 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 11:05:53 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Simulations Tom O'Haver writes > Do simulations belong in general chemistry? Or do students require > some degree of scientific maturity before they can appreciate and > profit from simulations? > > Alperson and O'Neil (Alperson, Jay R., and O'Neil, Dennis H., "The > Boxscore: Tutorials 2, Simulations 0", Academic Computing, 1990, 4:5 > February, 18-19 and 47-49.) performed a comparative evaluation of > the effectiveness of tutorial and simulation formats in teaching > lower division undergraduate students in anthropology and > psychology. They found that beginning students learn more from > tutorials than from simulations, based on multiple-choice test > scores and student evaluations. They conclude that simulations are > more effective for upper division undergraduate and graduate > students who already know the fundamentals of the discipline, who > are more self-motivated and who have the required conceptual > framework to direct their own learning. Weyh and Crook (Weyh, John > A. and Crook, Joseph R., "CAI Drill and Practice: is it really that > bad?", Academic Computing, 1988, 2:7, June, 32-36 and 52-54) found > that the use of well-designed drill and practice programs > significantly improved test scores in an introductory chemistry > course dealing with writing and balancing equations, stoichiometric > relationships, and chemical equilibrium. > These are interesting results indeed. I interpret them to mean that beginning students are being drilled in algorithmic modes of learning and tested for their mastery of algorithms. The study does not tell us how to move away from algorithms for beginning students and get them started at higher levels of reasoning. This may be why organic chem and pchem are so hard. Students are not prepared for anything but algorithms when they use drill exclusively. I don't recommend abandoning drill entirely. But I think that earlier introduction of simulations will help students to develop more quickly. Again like in athletic training you must exceed your level in order to make progress. I might also be useful to consider that the greatest drop of majors occurs in freshman year. Could algorithms and their mindless repetition in drill be part of the problem? Sheila Tobias makes some interesting observation in her book about stalking the second tier. Educational drill like athletic training should have a purpose. The athlete knows his goals and trains with purpose. do our beginning students know their goals and what is needed to achieve those goals? Premeds know that they need xx courses and must get yy grades so they do what is needed but do they understand the deeper purpose for courses xx? I don't think so. If they did they would study differently. If we did we would teach differently (I know we know the purpose but do we effectively communicate it (by actions as well as words)?). In all humility I must admit that I have more questions than answers. I have been reading allot about teaching strategies over the last 15 months. It seems that there is a great concern about how and what students are learning and how effective traditional methods of instruction are with the current generation of students - students who can't believe that some of us are old enough to remember living without a TV because the industry was in its infancy. All of my colleagues are great lecturers and good scientists. Some are even very entertaining in class. But they are working under the older paradigm of education, the one that most of us learned under. Is this paradigm working with our students? Will this paradigm enable us to educate (not train) the chemists and informed citizens of tomorrow? So what do I think is needed. Well for a start as Ed mentioned yesterday, and I may be misparaphrasing him since I don't have his comment in of me, we need new ways to teach. New strategies that may at first seem to sacrifice content. We also need more careful assessment. Assessment that is ongoing throughout a course. The type that helps us to revise our teaching strategies quickly and frequently. the type that helps us to find out what the students hear when we tell them something. Do we say zzzzz and they hear ddddd. It happens as you all know. I also know that this is not a trivial task for any one teacher. I am only just trying to figure out how to write meaningful explicit objectives for each lesson. Some of you are way ahead of me on this. Next would be to write out the specific tasks to accomplish each objective. This is followed by assessment tools for each step of the process. This is coupled to developing a repertoire of misconcepts that can be used to diagnose student difficulties. We all know about misconcepts and handle them intuitively. What I mean is a written list and some analysis on how they appear from what we say. Bodner has done good work in this area. My current estimates say that I will need several years to do this adequately for one course. This includes using what ever I can beg borrow or ---- from the journals and colleagues, most of which must be careful adapted for student use in order to optimize learning. On last remark. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. Do our students want to be like us? Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 10:58:00 EDT From: "Peter Gold, Penn State U. (814) 865-7694" Subject: simulations The recent exchanges on simulatins vs real labs prompts me to report on a project combining features of both both which is being developed by Bob Minard, my colleague here at Penn State who runs the organic instructional labs. This is a large University and Bob therefore must run large classes. The introductory organic lab has two or three sections each semester; each section has about 150 students. In order to make instruments, such as GC's, available to them and give them the necessary operating instructions Bob is developing a "Computer-Assisted Laboratory Instrument Operation and Principles Explanation" (CALIOPE) system which uses a computer (Mac) which is coupled to the instrument (with LabView) to guide the student through the operation of the instrument The program for the gc first shows the student how to set the instrument, including the temperature programming. Then the student is shown (via illustrations on the computer screen-eventually these will be replaced by QuickTime movie clips) how to fill a microliter syringe and inject the sample. When the program detects that the injection has been made success- fully it shows the student how to start the temperature program. It then starts a "principles of gc" tutorial while simultaneously displaying the chromatogram as it develops. At the end, the student gets a hard copy of the chromatogram. Thus the tutorial aspect and the data acquisition and analysis are combined in one program, the student gets to do a real experiment, and the instructors do not have to teach each student how to use the instrument. Similar programs are under development for other instruments such as UV/VIS and FTIR. These programs are being developed in collaboration with Penn State's Learning Technologies Group/Computer-Based Education Lab. Eventually we will have an instrument lab with a number of Caliope-driven instruments that will be available to students in all of our instructional labs. This will enable us to make the instruments available for many hours each week and, hence, to more students per instrument. it will emphasize to the students that instruments are used in all areas of chemistry-there are not "organic" instruments or "analytical" instruments. And it will bring students in lower-division courses into contact with students using the same instruments in upper-level courses. For further information contact Bob Minard directly: RDM5@PSUVM.PSU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 11:56:19 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: paper 15 subscripts Steve Lower says; > >There are also some de-facto standards: TeX/LaTeX, which some people love >to dismiss as obsolete, 1980's technology, is still widely used for >distribution of scientific documents worldwide (I use it for sharing >some of the text materials I have developed and have placed on our >ftp server), and it is implemented on virtually every type of computer. Yes -- but most don't display it as a readable formula -- you get a string of Fortran like text. >PostScript is yet another working standard. Of course none of these >addresses the problem of screen display (except Display PostScript, >which I presume is still a part of NextStep for the PC). >---------- Joint the windows generation -- you don't need displaypostscript -- your Word for Window, Word for Mac or equivalent Motif or X-windows UNIX wordprocessing package will all display on screen the e-mail attachment sent in Word Processor format. The same applies to word perfect and you can move files between them -- the display isn't always perfect but it is publishable quality but is clearly readable and formulae and diagrams are intact. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 09:42:16 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: the place of simulations There is one time tested method of teaching that works, apprenticeship. Note that all Ph.D. programs in science work this way. As far as I know there are no schools that recruit more chemistry majors per year than twice the number of chemistry faculty. Apparently close personal contact is more important than size and quality of the student body in recruiting scientists. One thing this conference shows is that with e-mail we can increase the range of our contacts, but I agree it cannot replace face to face contact. When the control menus for using interfaces here at MSU were originally written six years ago John Amend insisted on including a simulation option. When you select "Perform an Experiment" you are given a choice of where the data is to come from: "The Interface" or "From a Computer File". The simulation option was used in a half life experiment since providing students with a wide range of radioisotopes with different short half lives was not safe or feasible. I don't know of any other case where it was actually used in the instructional laboratory. In the last two hundred years we have learned that some things can be taught through books. This certainly includes names and facts about dinosaurs. One can learn ablout science from books, and many of our fourth to sixth graders are interested in being scientists. However our school system generally kills their interest and enthusiasm before they get to high school. I think this can be changed. I know it will take contact with fifth and sixth grade teachers who are enthusiastic about doing science. I can't imagine the requisite excitement coming from any kind of conputer simulation of science. Fortunately computers and interfacing provide a way to make actual scientific experiments affordable for schools. Probably we as college scientists will have to develop the experiments for general science teachers to introduce to thier classes, but the students and their teachers will need the capability to modify the experiments if it is to be at all like real science today and tomorrow. Like most of the participants in this conference, I believe that electronic access to imformation will be a major part of scientific work in the future. The major conclusion I have reached from the discussion is that we must now be introducing our students to this, enev if it doesn't yet work as well as it should. I am adding computer processed photographs to the p-chem lab manual even if we don't have the quality of high definition video affordable yet. I also like using KCDISCOVER in class because it is an affordable example of a database in spite of its shortcomings. In this sense I am strongly in favor of "simulation". sincerely, Reed Howald Dept. of Chemistry and Biochemistry Montana State University Bozeman, MT 59717 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 15:21:47 +0000 From: Ray Johnson Subject: Re: General Chem baby P. Chem Earlier in this conference a great deal of discussion centered around the physical chemistry content of general chemistry. My daughter will be attending the University of Edinburgh, Scotland this fall (divinity, not chemistry) but I looked over the description of the chemistry courses in their catalog and thought that conference participants who are considering a change in General Chem. might be interested in their chemistry course sequence. Their first three years were described approx. as follows: Chemistry 1 (first year) 8 lectures of basic chemistry (atomic and molecular structure) 20 lectures in Inorganic (ionic compounds, lattice energies, intro to elements, groups) 24 lectures in Physical (gases, internal molecular motion, elementry spectroscopy, equlibria, and kinetics) 24 lectures in Organic (compounds, reaction types, functional groups) Chemistry 2 (second year) Organic (aromatics, stereochemistry, reaction mechanisms) Physical (thermodynamics, solution chemistry, electrochemistry) Inorganic (main group elements and transition metals) Chemistry 3 (third year) 50 lectures in advanced inorganic, organic, and physical, and 20 lectures in analytical Inorganic (structure determination, transition and main group compounds) Organic (structure, mechanisms, synthesis, and bio-organic) Physical (spectroscopy, kinetics, structure, bonding, stat. thermo, phases, and interfaces) Analytical (techniques of analysis, chemical composition) Fourth year seemed to include Chemical Physics (quantum mechanics, mathematical methods, etc.) I don't know if this approach is common in the UK or just at Edinburgh but I was quite interested in the fact that they offer several areas of chemistry each year instead of a single area for a whole year. I am sure that having the inorganic and organic in the first year would be more interesting to the student than having baby P. Chem. for a whole year. It also allows the integration of the sub-disciplines of chemistry over the three years rather than offering a different area each year with very few connections between the areas. If anyone from the UK would care to answer, I would be interested in knowing the advantages and disadvantages of this approach, how it is taught (team taught, etc.?), what kinds of textbooks are used, and how you would compare it to the U.S. system. Ray L. Johnson Hillsdale College Hillsdale, MI 49242 ray.johnson@ac.hillsdale.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 16:29:15 -0500 Reply-To: "theodore p. labuza" From: "theodore p. labuza" Subject: evaluation I hope that you have some way to make sure we don't get bombarded with everyones evaluation form. I received someone's already. Dr Ted Labuza tplabuza@EPX.CIS.UMN.EDU or tplabuza@staff.tc.umn.edu Department of Food Science & Nutrition 136 AMLMS U of Minnesota St Paul, MN 55108 Home Fax 612-633-0627 Voice 612-624-9701 UM Fax 612-625-5272 "SURFING THE WAVES OF CYBERSPACE" ___ || | \| |__| | ---|---- / \ |___/__/\_____/ \ /\ /\ /\/\/\/\ / \ /\ / \/ \ /\/ \ / \/ \/ \/ \/ Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once". Except in my office which exists in a time warp!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 21:44:31 +22306404 From: "Dr. John A. Pojman" Subject: Simulations On a more epistemological note: If a simulation is designed to train a student to run a real experiment, which they do eventually do, they the simulation plays the same role as flight simulators for training pilots. If, however, a simulation replaces the experiment, then we are abandoning our fundamental nature of chemistry -- it is an experimental exploration of the natural world. Visiting a planetarium can not replace looking at the night sky. An interesting suggestion I once heard regarding the (stunted) development of greek astronomy went as follows: The Greeks developed sophisticated mechanical devices for predicting the position of planets (e.g., the Antikythera mechanism) based on the geocentric model of the universe. Perhaps they became so enamored with their models that they neglected to continue the real exploration of the natural world and never went beyond geocentrism. In fact, you can't do a real experiment with a computer model (unless it is so complex or inherently chaotic). The answer is already built in. You can learn about the model that is being simulated, but not about the real world. Anyway, my concern is out of concern for cost, we neglect our real mission. This is not to say simulations can not play a role, but they should not replace experimentation. -- John A. Pojman, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry The University of Southern Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5043 (601) 266-5035 FAX: (601) 266-5829 INTERNET: pojman@whale.st.usm.edu or: pojman@wave.st.usm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 10:11:46 +0000 From: Mark_Winter Subject: Re: General Chem baby P. Chem >I don't know if this approach is common in the UK or just at Edinburgh but I >was quite interested in the fact that they offer several areas of chemistry >each year instead of a single area for a whole year. I am sure that having >the inorganic and organic in the first year would be more interesting to the >student than having baby P. Chem. for a whole year. It also allows the >integration of the sub-disciplines of chemistry over the three years rather >than offering a different area each year with very few connections between the >areas. This type of course structure is the norm in the UK. I don't know what 'baby P. chem' is, but I suspect that if we announced to the student body that as of next year courses will only cover one branch of chenistry per year, they'd all leave pretty sharpish. > >If anyone from the UK would care to answer, I would be interested in knowing >the advantages and disadvantages of this approach, how it is taught (team >taught, etc.?), what kinds of textbooks are used, and how you would compare >it to the U.S. system. There are any number of models. Typically a number of lecturers would be involved with each main branch. As for textbooks, speaking as an inorganic chemist, it's not easy to find good books. We currently dip in to a number of books, including those by Shriver, Atkins, and Langford; Butler and Harrod; Huheey; Cotton and Wilkinson; Decock and Gray, etc. Dr Mark J Winter: Dept of Chemistry, The University, Sheffield S3 7HF, England tel: +44 (0)742 824498 fax: +44 (0)742 738673 e-m: M.Winter@sheffield.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 11:02:20 RSA From: Leslie Glasser <009LGZS@WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: General Chem baby P. Chem In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 16 Aug 1993 15:21:47 +0000 from I am responding to Ray Johnson's query re the teaching program at UK univeritie s. I feel able to reply as we teach according to the UK program, and I have bo th UK and US experience although I live and teach in South Africa. Both in high school and in tertiary education, it is usual to provide a mix of courseware in each year. At university that means a team teaching approach wit h a planned curriculum (altho' each member of the team may well pull in his/her own direction - it is not always a simple program!). Our texts here are usual ly from the US, tho' there are some UK texts. Our 1st year is very general, co vering the whole spectrum of Chem (we use Gillespie), while the UK will start w ith rather better-prepared students. From 2nd year, the Chemistry becomes more specialised - in PChem we use Atkins. Labs are in (rough) parallel with the l ectures, and each student takes each lab, so that the courses are complete year -long programs, and are examined both at half-year and at year-end (we run from Feb-Nov/Dec, being in the southern hemisphere. We are considering a more modular 'topic' system. I would say that the principal advantage is that students grow naturally in the subject and can relate topics across the board (tho' not as successfully as one would hope/expect). They are themselves maturing over the period and can't be expected to treat their subjects maturely in their first year or so. Our standard program is over 3 years (for a B. Sc. degree - B.S. to you), then 2-year M.Sc. and 2/4 year Ph. D. We have a large cadre of disadvantaged studen ts, and provide them with a 2-year College of Science curriculum. If successfu l they enter the 2nd year of the B. Sc., being able to graduate in 4 years. This is unique to our situation in SA, and is not done in the UK. I would be happy to provide more detail in particular areas, if requested. Leslie ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (Prof.) Leslie Glasser Dept. of Chemistry E_MAIL: 009LGZS@WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA University of the Witwatersrand Tel: (011)-716-2070 WITS 2050 FAX: (011)-339-7967 South Africa ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 06:27:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: How to return evaluations Please, mail your completed evaluation forms directly to me (to2@umail.umd.edu), NOT to the list address (CHEMCONF). We don't want to bombard everyone with all those long evaluation forms. (It's OK to bombard me; I can handle it!). And, incidently, thanks to all those who have already returned their evaluations forms. These evaluations are important for planning the next on-line conference. Tom O'Haver to2@umail.umd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 09:49:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Post Conference Discussion and Publication MEMORANDUM To: Participants in the Conference on "Applications of Technology in Teaching Chemistry" From: Donald Rosenthal Box 5810 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315-265-9242 ROSEN1@CLVM.BITNET and Thomas O'Haver University of Maryland TO2@UMAIL.UMD.EDU Date: August 17, 1993 Re: Post Conference Discussion and Publication On July 25 Ted Labuza stated: >> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 21:51:41 -0500 >> From: Ted Labuza >> I hope the conference organizers >> can take 10 or so ideas from these discussions and start a Listserv >> to continue the discussion. I certainly have benefited from it >> (the conference) . . . . Perhaps 2-3 weeks of >> discussion on each (topic) with several of us volunteering to collate >> the thoughts into pros, cons and others and write it up for some >> publication such as J. Chem. Education. That might help to make it a >> lasting and impactful piece. If we do that, I would ask that where >> appropriate, references to other works be detailed, for use in >> publication. Writing a paper which represents the collective wisdom of many conference participants is an interesting and challenging idea. Tom O'Haver and I have discussed this (via electronic mail - of course), and I have volunteered to explore the possibilities. (Ted Labuza appears to have disappeared. Are you there Ted??) I am suggesting the following: I. CHOICE OF TOPICS It seems to me that ten topics is too many. I suggest four. Topics which generated considerable discussion during the meeting include the following: A. New Tools vs. Old Methods B. The Use of Networks and Electronic Mail in Chemical Education C. What Students Need to Know about Computers and Computing D. The Use of Simulations I can envision one article being written on each of the above topics. In order for a topic to be viable, we will need one (or more) volunteer to agree to work as FACILITATOR and be responsible for preparing an article for publication on the topic. Any topic which does not have at least one facilitator will be dropped. Additional or substitute topics may be suggested. II. SOME UNIQUE OPPORTUNITIES AND DIFFICULTIES A. FACILITATORS must attempt to provide a balanced synthesis of the discussion rather than presenting just one point of view. Some participants may feel their point of view has not been adequately presented - they may disagree with some of the statements in the article or they may believe that certain ideas have been omitted. However, the facilitators will have the responsibility of making final decisions - trying to be fair and even-handed but realizing that not everyone is likely to be satisfied. B. I'm not certain that all contributors can be listed as co-authors of the papers and I'm not sure it would be appropriate or convenient to quote every contributor. One possibility for handling authorship would be to identify the volunteer as follows: Richard Jones (facilitator) and participants in the On-Line Computer Conference on "Applications of Technology in Teaching Chemistry"* The individual contributors to the discussion could be footnoted if not too many names are involved and if the journal is willing. C. Some of the topics may be closely identified with one or more Conference papers. The authors may wish to use the fruits of the discussion in preparing a revised version of their paper for publication or they may wish to "author" the article resulting from the discussion. I believe we should provide the author with an opportunity to pursue either course. If an author wishes to use the discussion for his own purposes or to serve as facilitator, (s)he needs to notify us THIS WEEK. D. We will need to get permission from authors and participants, particularly if they are to be quoted. Permission statements have been included in the revised evaluation form. III. STRATEGY AND PROPOSED SCHEDULE CHEMCONF will serve as the LISTSERV. Those wishing to participate should remain signed on. A. Week of August 16 The topics to be used must be chosen and participants must volunteer to serve as "authors" or FACILITATORS. It is important that volunteers perform their duties expeditiously. - They must make a definite commitment. A draft of the paper must be available by January 3, 1994 (?). If there is more than one volunteer, one volunteer will be selected as primary FACILITATOR. Discussion of proposed format and schedule. Any changes will be announced on or before August 30. B. Week of August 30 Additional discussion of the first topic (Possibly I-A) It would be a good idea if relevant discussion from the Conference and papers could be distributed at the beginning of discussion of the topic. I'm not certain how feasible this is. C. Discussion of other topics will proceed on a weekly basis. D. On Monday, January 3, 1994 drafts of the papers (one paper per topic) will be distributed. There should be an indication that the paper originated as a result of papers presented at the Conference and discussion during and subsequent to the Conference. E. Week of January 10 Discussion of the paper devoted to the first topic. F. In subsequent weeks there will be discussion of the other papers. G. The papers will be submitted for publication by March 1. IV. QUESTIONS FOR CONSIDERATION DURING THE WEEK OF AUGUST 16 A. CHOICE OF TOPICS AND NUMBER OF TOPICS (ONE, FOUR OR MORE?) B. VOLUNTEER AUTHOR - FACILITATORS C. COMMENTS AND DISCUSSION OF THE FORMAT D. COMMENTS AND DISCUSSION OF THE SCHEDULE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 12:37:41 -0400 From: "CARL H. SNYDER, CHEMISTRY; CSnyder@umiami.ir.miami.edu" Subject: Re: Post Conference Discussion and Publication Don Rosenthal and Tom O'Haver wrote: >Writing a paper which represents the collective wisdom of many >conference participants is an interesting and challenging idea. > >Tom O'Haver and I have discussed this (via electronic mail - of course), >and I have volunteered to explore the possibilities. One of the topics suggested was: > B. The Use of Networks and Electronic Mail in Chemical Education This would require someone to act as facilitator: > In order for a topic to be viable, we will need one (or more) >volunteer to agree to work as FACILITATOR and be responsible for >preparing an article for publication on the topic. > > Any topic which does not have at least one facilitator will be >dropped. Topic B is close to my heart, and is the focus of Paper 11 (Snyder/Shelley) I have mixed feelings about serving as facilitator for this topic. On the one hand I feel strongly that the proceedings of this electronic symposium must be published, very much along the lines described by Don and Tom, and I would very much like to promote the use of electronic mail in courses. On the other hand I have some very time-consuming commitments coming up between now and early 1994. These weaken my resolve a bit. Having written all this, I would like to volunteer, but question the wisdom of adding another commitment to my schedule for the next few months. I wonder, then, if anyone else shares my enthusiasm for this topic? I wonder if anyone else would like to supervise the preparation of the paper, with or without some contribution from me? Is anyone interested? Carl H. Snyder Internet: CSNYDER@umiami.IR.Miami.EDU Chemistry Department Bitnet: CSNYDER@umiami University of Miami Phone: (305)-284-2174 Coral Gables, FL 33124 FAX: (305)-285-4571 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 12:11:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: Facilitator I will be happy to serve as Facilitator for topic D. "The use of Simulations". I have saved most, but not all of the comments on this matter, but I assume that they are available on the Listserver. Gary *********************************************************** * GARY L. BERTRAND, DEPT OF CHEMISTRY, UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-ROLLA * * ROLLA, MO 65401. (314)-341-4441 * * BITNET- GBERT@UMRVMB INTERNET- GBERT@UMRVMB.UMR.EDU * * "I NEVER WANTED TO BE FAMOUS, I JUST WANTED TO BE GREAT." RAY CHARLES * *********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 15:41:40 -0400 From: "Mr. Science" Subject: Re: Post Conference Discussion and Publication I would be more than happy to actas a facilitator for any of the topics suggested, though I am personally drawn to the topics of simulations and necessary computer knowledge by students. However, I will gladly work on any of the four topics. Regards, Anthony Rosati georgetown university Date this awe-inspiring message was sent: 17-AUG-1993 15:39:18 *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* | Anthony V. Rosati | | | Department of Chemistry, | "A nation that cannot think, | | Georgetown University | cannot survive." | | Washington, D.C. 20057-2222 | | | ROSATI@GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU | - Norman Mailer, 1992 | | A_ROSATI@GUVAX.GEORGETOWN.EDU | National Press Club | # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # ======== # | Information Exchange Coordinator and Member, Board of Directors | | National Association of Graduate-Professional Students (NAGPS) | | 1993 - 1994 | *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 16:03:23 -0400 From: Paul Edwards Subject: Re: Post Conference Discussion and Publication Carl: If you'd like a co-facilitator, I'll volunteer. I don't have the same level of experience as you; I'm still at the front edge of the learning curve. Obviously that makes it silly for me to be a sole facilitator -- but if you need a spare set of hands and a sounding board .... Paul Edwards edwardsp@vax.edinboro.edu Edinboro Univ. of PA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 13:09:11 -0800 From: "Richard J. Stolzberg" Subject: paper 14/ simulation One unintended value of simulation that has not been discussed is that it allows the professor to readily see how a particular group of upper level undergraduates responds to the suggestions that they _experiment_. That is, we can gauge the ability of our students to do some sort of designed experiments to solve a given problem. If they do well, we can construct exercises that allow students to "learn some chemistry" via efficient simulation. If they have little idea what to do (which happened last September in our senior Instrumental Method lecture class!), we are most likely able to bring them up to speed before the next semester when they are in Instrumental Methods laboratory. From my perspective, it is a great deal less expensive to discover this fact prior to an advanced lab course than during the course. Given the traditional nature of many chemistry courses, it does not surprise me, in retrospect, that some students have no idea that it is possible or desirable to study variables, perhaps even more than one variable simultaneously. One of our goals should be to introduce students to this notion as early in their education as possible. My choice is sophomore analytical chemistry, if not in general chemistry. -------------------------------------- Richard J. Stolzberg Chemistry University of Alaska Fairbanks, AK FFRJS@ALASKA.BITNET --------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 16:10:15 MDT From: Reed Howald Subject: discussion - testing I am dissapointed that there is not more substantive discussion going on this week in the conference. There does seem to be interest in publishing material from the conference and the discussion. One item discussed but not on the Rosenthal-O'Haver list of topics is the sharing of examination questions to get quantitative information on outcomes of teahcing strategies. I am interested enough in this area to serve as "facilitator" if there is enough interest to establish some standards and start doing this. I am sure that we can document that some of the available drill and practice programs can improve student performance on certain classes of examination questions. We can certainly document differences between textbooks in use. I think it is important that we chemists collect some data with more validity than student evaluations for deans to look at. If you are interested we need a way to use electronic communication to pass information between sites. It has been suggested that we use binary attatchments to e-mail. Do people know how do that sucessfully? I am not sure that it is a good idea to have exam question files available on anonymous FTP. It would certainly encourage students to become proficient in this use of the network if they knew their professors were getting exam questions this way. If we do use binary attatchments, what word processor should we pick? I have not moved to a windows operating system. Is word perfect 5.0 or 5.1 available at most sites? Can we agree on an ASCII code for superscripts and subscripts? What would most teachers find useful in a documented file of machine gradable exam questions? Sincerely, Reed Howald ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 20:03:53 -0500 From: Ken Loach Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Re: discussion - testing Date sent: 17-AUG-1993 19:58:56 >...............................................................I am not sure >that it is a good idea to have exam question files available on anonymous FTP. >It would certainly encourage students to become proficient in this use of the >network if they knew their professors were getting exam questions this way. > >Reed Howald Why not encrypt such files? The decryption keys could be distributed by ordinary mail. Encryption/decryption utilities are fairly widely available now. Ken W. Loach, Chemistry Department, Hudson 319c (518) 564-2116 or -4116 S.U.N.Y College, Plattsburgh, NY 12901, USA. splava::loachkw (local DECnet) LOACHKW@SNYPLAVA.BITNET loachkw@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu (Internet) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 22:07:26 -0400 From: Judith Faye Rubinson Subject: Re: Post Conference Discussion and Publication Like an earlier participant "I am still early in the learning curve" when it comes to the topics, but the simulation and necessary computer background topics are both of interest. I would be willing to work with someone with more expertise as a co-author or simply as an interested correspondent--Faye Rubinson, Department of Chemistry, College of Mount St. Joseph, 5701 Delhi Rd., Cincinnati, OH 45233-1670. RUBINSON@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 06:39:41 -0400 From: "CARL H. SNYDER, CHEMISTRY; CSnyder@umiami.ir.miami.edu" Subject: Re: Post Conference Discussion and Publication >Paul Edwards >edwardsp@vax.edinboro.edu >Edinboro Univ. of PA writes: >Carl: > >If you'd like a co-facilitator, I'll volunteer. I don't have the >same level of experience as you; I'm still at the front edge of >the learning curve. Obviously that makes it silly for me to be a >sole facilitator -- but if you need a spare set of hands and a sounding >board .... Sounds good! OK, Paul, let's join up for the facilitation of the networking and electronic mail topic. With two (or more?) working on this it should fit more easily into the fall semester schedules. I'm deliberately replying to the list rather than directly to Paul so as to reach anyone else who may be interested. Carl H. Snyder Internet: CSNYDER@umiami.IR.Miami.EDU Chemistry Department Bitnet: CSNYDER@umiami University of Miami Phone: (305)-284-2174 Coral Gables, FL 33124 FAX: (305)-285-4571 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 14:57:12 GMT+2 From: Dr Zeno Apostolides Organization: University of Pretoria Subject: simulation - post conference discussion Hallo, I have followed the discussions on simulations and noticed a valuable that has been missed. Gagne has a appropriate definition for learning.. "learning has occurred when the candidate has developed a strategy for himself with which he analyses all similar problems". This "strategy developing" value of simulations has, I believe, has been missed. I have several years experience with using simulations in biochemistry. My students and I find this aspect of simulations useful, because it forces the students to think at the higher cognitive levels of synthesis and evaluation. The benefit of this is reflected in the exam answers from students who have used the simulation versus the control group, who have not. Regards Zeno I have a reference that may be useful, Gage R M (1982). Developments in learning psychology. Educational Technology June 11-15. Dr Z Apostolides TEL (27)-(012)-420-2486 Department Of Biochemistry FAX (27)-(012)-43-2185 or 342-1449 University of Pretoria e-mail InterNet:bio0@navi.up.ac.za Pretoria 0002 South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 11:01:04 -0400 From: Mary Swift Subject: Facilitator Volunteer Another one at the beginning of the learning curve, I would like to volunteer for the "what students need to know about computers and computing" group. Mary L. Swift Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology College of Medicine Howard University Washington DC 20050-0001 e-mail mswift@umd5.umd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 11:10:19 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: discussion - testing >I am dissapointed that there is not more substantive discussion going on this >week in the conference. > >There does seem to be interest in publishing material from the conference and >the discussion. > >One item discussed but not on the Rosenthal-O'Haver list of topics is the >sharing of examination questions to get quantitative information on outcomes of >teahcing strategies. I am interested enough in this area to serve as >"facilitator" if there is enough interest to establish some standards and start >doing this. I am sure that we can document that some of the available drill >and practice programs can improve student performance on certain classes of >examination questions. We can certainly document differences between textbooks >in use. I think it is important that we chemists collect some data with more >validity than student evaluations for deans to look at. > >If you are interested we need a way to use electronic communication to pass >information between sites. It has been suggested that we use binary >attatchments to e-mail. Do people know how do that sucessfully? I am not sure >that it is a good idea to have exam question files available on anonymous FTP. >It would certainly encourage students to become proficient in this use of the >network if they knew their professors were getting exam questions this way. > >If we do use binary attatchments, what word processor should we pick? Word is the most popular for the Mac and Word Perfect for the PC. They can usually read each other's formats and the Macs can read and write from the DOS and WINDOWS formats. I have >not moved to a windows operating system. Nupop is a DOS program and it handles its attachments and does bin/hex encoding the same way the mac does so Nupop and Eudora -- both freebies -- can exchange documents between Macs and PCs. Just this morning I came across a problem of someone sending an attached document using Microsoft Mail from a Pc to a colleague with a Mac. It didn't work. Havn't explored the reason why yet but my guess is that Microsoft mail used a proprietary encoding. If you WP for DOS can import a WP for windows file, I presume your superscripts and subscripts will be handled as they are in you DOS environment. Since Chemistry is full of formulae and structures and thus visual clues are so important to what we do it is imperative if computers are to be of maximum benefit for both teaching and research that we adopt GUI standardsand get away from text only software and old comand line interfaces. A picture (diagram, formula) is worth a thousand words and perhaps a simulation/animation/little movie worth several thousand. Is word perfect 5.0 or 5.1 available >at most sites? It is our PC standard. Most Mac users prefer MS Word. I do -- I find it much more flexible than WP. Can we agree on an ASCII code for superscripts and subscripts? Is it worth bothering to try -- by the time we have an acceptable ASCII standard almost everyone will be in a GUI mode, whether windows, mac, X-windows or Motif. >What would most teachers find useful in a documented file of machine gradable >exam questions? > >Sincerely, >Reed Howald Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 11:35:11 -0400 From: "Frank W. Darrow" Subject: Re: discussion - testing I am interested. WordPerfect is the standard at Ithaca College. ---------- Frank W. Darrow, Chemistry Dept., Ithaca College, Ithaca, NY 14850 Darrow@Ithaca.BitNet (607) 274-3991 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 11:59:42 -0400 From: George Long Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Facilitator Volunteer I would like to volunteer as a (co)facilitator for New tools vs Old methods, I, like others, am at the front end of the learning curve, so any help will be greatly appreciated. Is anyone else interested in this topic? George Long Dept of Chem Indiana Univ of PA Indiana, PA 15705 GRLONG@grove.iup.edu (412)357-2575 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 13:07:14 -0400 From: HARRY PENCE Subject: POST CONFERENCE DISCUSSION AND PUBLICATION Like Carl, one of the topics is near to my heart but my schedule for the fall looks rather heavy. I'll volunteer to be the facilitator for A. New Tools vs. Old Methods and offer a fervent prayer that there's someone else who shares my enthusiasm and will volunteer to be a co-facilitator. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Harry E. Pence BITNET: PENCEHE@SNYONEVA | | Professor of Chemistry PHONE: 607-436-3179 | | SUNY Oneonta FAX: 607-436-2107 | | Oneonta, NY 13820 | ____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 13:30:00 EDT From: "Peter Gold, Penn State U. (814) 865-7694" Subject: discussion - testing I would certainly be interested in a further discussion of the topics suggested by Reed Howald including exam questions, drill and practice programs,and current textbooks. The problem of how to exchange files is a difficult one and I'm not sure I'm even aware of all of the problems that are involved. Suppose I create a file in WinWord2 on my PC, upload it to my local mainframe and send that file electronically to another site. The recepient then downloads my file to her PC. If she also has WinWord2 can she then read the file? If so, why do I need NUPop? If not, why not? Relatively few people in our department use WordPerfect and most of them are administrators. Among the faculty, Microsoft Word, in either its Mac or Windows version (I use both), is the most common. The heaviest Mac usage is among the younger faculty. We find that it is not easy to share files even between Word for the Mac and WinWord if they have symbols, arrows, or anything else that isn't straight text and I am therefore somewhat skeptical of claims to the contrary. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 14:11:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Some examples of simulations Quite a few participants in this conference have expressed an interest in computer simulations. I have placed on info.umd.edu, in the path ChemConference/Software/Spreadsheets, several examples of simple interactive worksheets that I have written for my analytical chemistry courses, most of which feature some aspect of simulation. These are presented as examples of the sort of "home made" simulations that can be developed by instructors using modern object-oriented programming systems. (I wrote these myself and I am most certainly not a professional programmer). Most of these things were written in Informix's Wingz, a little-known but excellent object-oriented spreadsheet which is available for Windows and for the Macintosh. One could do much the same using Borland's Quattro for Windows. The files ending in ".wkz" are binary files that can be read by either the PC or Mac version of Wingz. Those ending in (MathCAD) are MathCAD binaries (Macintosh version). The files ending in ".instructions" are text versions of the instructions given to students. a brief description of the main worksheets is attached to this message Tom O'Haver U. of Maryland ---------------------------- Simulation Worksheets (Wingz Spreadsheets) Animated grating; Animated Czerny-Turner Two "animated figure" models that help students understand diffraction gratings in stationary and Czerny-Turner mountings. Students vary wavelength, angle of incident light, ruling density and observe diffracted beams in orders 0, 1 and 2. Atomic Absorption The spectroscopy of a line-source atomic absorption measurement with continuum-source background correction in a steady-state (i.e. flame) atomizer. The purpose of the simulation is to make it clearer how the various spectroscopic aspects relate to each other and to the measured absorbance. Students observe relation of hollow cathode lamp emission profile atomic absorption profile, observe effect of changing line widths, correction of background absorption by continuum-source (D2) method, overcorrection caused by structured background absorption, the effect of non-absorbing lines, line-overlap interferences, and hyperfine structure. Beer's Law Deviations Numerical integration of light absorption. Students observe graphically how the spectral distribution of the light source and the absorbers influence the transmitted light profile and the calculated absorbance, discover under what conditions Beers law is obeyed, observe and measure the Beers law deviation caused by polychromatic radiation and unabsorbed stray light. Ca Electrode Simulation of the standard addition method for calcium determination by ion-selective electrode. The simulation demonstrates the ability of the standard addition method to correct for an unknown reference potential and ionic strength (and thus activity coefficient). It includes two sources of error: the effect of the addition of standard on the ionic strength and activity of calcium, and effect of voltage reading error. Capillary Shows how a difference between the distribution coefficient of two components can lead to separation in capillary gas chromatography. Students select column length, column internal diameter, thickness of stationary phase, diffusion coefficient in mobile phase, viscosity of carrier gas, flow rate, ambient temperature, column temperature; observe resulting effect on phase ratio, capacity factor, selectivity, linear velocity of carrier, retention time of unretained peak, retention time of component, plate height, efficiency (plate count), peak base width, and resolution. Displays plot of simulated chromatogram showing two component peaks and an unretained peak. ChromModel (Discrete contact equilibrium model of chromatography) Shows how chromatography can be modeled as a large number of discrete equilibrium steps, each one a simple partitioning between mobile and stationary stages, similar to a series of solvent extraction operations. Graphically shows how Gaussian bands evolve. Error propagation in analytical calibration methods (Single External Strandard, Single Addition, Bracket, Standard Addition, etc.) A set of spreadsheets that perform a Monte-Carlo simulation (e.g. random-number driven) of the precision of analysis based on widely used calibration methods including single standard, bracket, and standard addition methods. Simulation includes additive and multiplicative interference and random errors in signal and volumetric measurements. Versions with linear and non-linear analytical curves. Students observe how errors combine, attempt to optimize precision and accuracy of the measurement. Fluorescence Simulation of room temperature prompt fluorescence spcetrum of two non-interacting fluorophors in aqueous solution with right angle geometry in a standard cuvette, measured with a corrected dispersive spectrofluorometer. Students measure the wavelengths of maximum excitation and emission, Stokes shift, detection limits, observe Raleigh and Raman scatter, dark current, noise, background fluorescence, non-linearity caused by self-absorption, determine frequency of the vibration causing the Raman peak, compare absorption to fluorescence measurement, optimize measurement of two-component mixture by selective excitation and synchronous fluorescence method. Line on Background Simulation of a "classical" signal-to-noise optimization problem. Bar graph shows how the contribution of the three primary noise sources (flicker, photon, and detector) changes as the spectrometer slit width is changed. Students attempt to find the slit with that gives best signal-to-noise ratio. Line Wing Overlap This worksheet demonstrates how the Lorentzian line wings caused by collisional broadening of an intense matrix line can cause a background spectral interference even if the analyte line is many line-widths away from the interfering matrix line. This particular worksheet is set up for the example of the analysis of Mg at 285.21 nm in the presence of variable amounts of Na, which has a line at 285.28 nm. Photomultiplier Measurement of light intensity by a photomultiplier tube. Effect of load resistance, integration time, wavelength, light flux, applied voltage, and phototube temperature on signal and signal-to-noise ratio of light intensity measurement with photomultiplier tubes. Students compare difference types of phototubes, measure spectral characteristic, observe effects of amplifier overload, display resolution limits, phototube overload, determine lowest flux that can be measured, attempt to improve the SNR by cooling the phototube. Versions for DC and AC (chopped) operation. Temperature of Blackbody Shows how spectrum of a blackbody depends on the temperature and emissivity. Students measure temperature and emissivity of experimental data set by adjusting model to best fit the data. Triprotic Titration (Titration data analysis) After performing a pH titration of a weak polyprotic acid, students type their pH/titrant volume data into a spreadsheet that contains an exact algebraic model of the titration curve. For a triprotic acid, that is a quintic equation -- too complex to evaluate by hand but easy for a spreadsheet to handle. By adjusting the parameters of the model and observing graphically the fit between the experimental data (circles) and the calculated model (line) they can estimate the unknown parameters, such as the pKs of the acid. A dynamic model like this allows interactive investigation of such questions as: "What is the weakest acid that gives a discernible inflection at the endpoint?", or "Can titration be used at trace concentration levels by using a very dilute titrant?", or "Is the inflection point always exactly at the equivalence point?" ---------------------------------- Development utilities Control demo This sheet shows several working examples of WingZ control objects and the scripts that were used to create them. Incudes vertical and horizontal sliders, number wheel, a popup menu, radio buttons, check boxes, scrolling list, standard pull-down menus, color, line, and patters pickers. (Buttons and fields are not included because they can be created directly using the tool palette). Has complete built-in instructions. Control maker An attempt to automate the creation of custom control objects. Has built-in instructions. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 14:35:26 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: discussion - testing >I would certainly be interested in a further discussion of the topics >suggested by Reed Howald including exam questions, drill and practice >programs,and current textbooks. > >The problem of how to exchange files is a difficult one and I'm not sure I'm >even aware of all of the problems that are involved. Suppose I create a >file in WinWord2 on my PC, upload it to my local mainframe You have to know how to upload to the mainframe server - a step eliminated if using a user friendlyfron end on the Mac or PC and send that >file electronically to another site. You have to know how to log into the central server and how to send UNIX mail or how to FTP files. The question is -- how to you send it electronically to another site. If you FTP it may or may not be a problem if you use the right ftp protocols. If you e-mail it it will be sent as an ASCII text file which will loose all the formatting information including sub and superscripts. If it is long it will be broken into multiple parts. If you don't have software to automatically reassemble it you will almost certainly, if you do it by hand, have some errors. The recepient then downloads my file >to her PC. If she also has WinWord2 can she then read the file? If so, >why do I need NUPop? If not, why not? see above and refer to all th;e discussion early in this conference of the difficulty in getting readable files with graphics etc. Fetch was made available for the non ftp literate mac users to make access to the files simple -- it worries about whether it is binary or text which you otherwise have to specify if FTPing. Eudora and Nupop make for relatively seemless exchange of Mac and PC word processor and other graphics files which is what we are talking about for students submitting assignments etc. No one is, I hope, still using a word processor on a central server. > >Relatively few people in our department use WordPerfect and most of them are >administrators. Among the faculty, Microsoft Word, in either its Mac or >Windows version (I use both), is the most common. The heaviest Mac usage is >among the younger faculty. We find that it is not easy to share files even >between Word for the Mac and WinWord if they have symbols, arrows, or >anything else that isn't straight text and I am therefore somewhat skeptical >of claims to the contrary. The easiest way is if the Mac users save as a DOS or Windows file and send it to the PC friends. With Access PC or even with Apple File Exchange the stuff moves reasonably well -- its not perfect but is almost alwarys readable. We've never had trouble with super or sub scripts. If one has included diagrams the text size isoften wrong and in the wrong font but still readable. Our department is about 60% mac/40% PC with the secretary using a Mac LCIII and she gets files inboth word and Word perfect from the PC users and I do it all the time -- usually get asked to translate the harder bits from one format to another if people have problems, but it is certainly an order of magnitude better than sending straight ASCII e-mail. It helps if both environments are using the same type since often special symbols differ between for example Times and Helvetica. It also helps if both are using Postscript laser printers. Microsoft has a Rich Text Format (RTF) that you can save in for easier exchange -- if all else fails try that though I've not needed to for some years. Some people move their stuff to UNIX boxes via Encapsulated Postscript (EPS) or straight postscript files. This worked to print some complex chemical drawings done on a PC which wasn't hooked to a laser printer - the EPS files were moved to a Mac and printed from there, though the EPS itself wasn't readable. All I can say is that we do it routinely -- not perfectly but better than either retyping or FAXING or running across campus with a printout. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 11:57:03 PST From: "Edward H. Piepmeier" Subject: Re: discussion - testing Reed Howald asks: >If we do use binary attachments, what word processor should we pick? I have >not moved to a windows operating system. Is word perfect 5.0 or 5.1 available >at most sites? Can we agree on an ASCII code for superscripts and subscripts? >What would most teachers find useful in a documented file of machine gradable >exam questions? Word or WordPerfect can read each others files so either should do. I have also read DOS WordPerfect files into MAC WordPerfect via DOS floppy disks (but not yet after they have been transported across a network). However, my network node or gateway does not use binary conversion routines and I still need to use uuencode/uudecode for such files, which seem to be limited to about 20Kbytes (probably enough). I suggest using the underline _ for subscripts and ^ for superscripts as is done in the WordPerfect equation editor. These characters seem to have no other use in email document (ASCII) equations - although I have seen the underline used for emphasis, but that use should not conflict with its use in equations. Ed Piepmeier Oregon State University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 15:05:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Facilitator Volunteer In-Reply-To: <9308181631.AA07101@umd5.umd.edu> Don Rosenthal's call for volunteer facilitators, and the quick response from CHEMCONF participants, is a wonderful example of cooperative work being facilitated by network technology. It's also likely that all ar most of the work involved in this task can be carried out via network communication. It is my feeling that the quality of the communication that has gone on in this conference, especially in the discussions, is too good to limit to only ourselves and to other of the "connected elete". SO far we have the following topics and volunteer facilitators: A. New tools vs Old methods Facilitators: George Long and Harry Pence B. The Use of Networks and Electronic Mail in Chemical Education Facilitators: Carl H. Snyder and Paul Edwards C. What students need to know about computers and computing Facilitators: Mary L. Swift and Judith Faye Rubinson D. The use of Simulations Facilitators: Gary Bertrand and Anthony Rosati Do we any other volunteers or suggestions for topics? Sometime late this week I will download all the discussion logs from LISTSERV, edit them lightly to eliminate the "stray dog" messages and pacing messages, and post them on info.umd.edu in convenient chunks - perhaps by week. This may make it easier for the facilitator teams to extract what they need. So far there have been over 500 discussion messages, amounting to just over 1.5 Mbytes (about 500 pages) of discussion. Folks, we have written a fair-sized book! I consider it high-grade gold ore; in need of a bit of refining but full of valuable substance. Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 15:39:54 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Facilitator Volunteer Congratulations to Tom and Don It is my feeling >that the quality of the communication that has gone on in this >conference, especially in the discussions, is too good to limit >to only ourselves and to other of the "connected elete". > >Do we any other volunteers or suggestions for topics? > >Sometime late this week I will download all the discussion >logs from LISTSERV, edit them lightly to eliminate the "stray >dog" messages and pacing messages, and post them on info.umd.edu >in convenient chunks - perhaps by week. This may make it easier >for the facilitator teams to extract what they need. > >So far there have been over 500 discussion messages, amounting >to just over 1.5 Mbytes (about 500 pages) of discussion. Folks, we >have written a fair-sized book! I consider it high-grade gold ore; >in need of a bit of refining but full of valuable substance. When have any of you been to a conference with that volume of discussion for 15! papers Just the questions asked have been greater than one would typically hear in a week long conference attending 20 papers a day for 5 days. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 15:48:32 -0400 From: JOHN WOOLCOCK Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania Subject: Re: Facilitator Volunteer George Long has asked me to share the facilitators duties with him here at IUP for the New Tools vs. Old Methods discussions and I have agreed, as long as Harry Pence doesn't mind. John C. Woolcock Chemistry Department Indiana University of PA Indiana, PA 15705 Internet: WOOLCOCK@grove.iup.edu Bitnet: WOOLCOCK@IUP ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 15:52:11 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: discussion - testing >Reed Howald asks: >>If we do use binary attachments, what word processor should we pick? I have >>not moved to a windows operating system. Is word perfect 5.0 or 5.1 available >>at most sites? Can we agree on an ASCII code for superscripts and subscripts? >>What would most teachers find useful in a documented file of machine gradable >>exam questions? > >Word or WordPerfect can read each others files so either should do. I have >also >read DOS WordPerfect files into MAC WordPerfect via DOS floppy disks (but not >yet after they have been transported across a network). > >However, my network node or gateway does not use binary conversion routines and >I still need to use uuencode/uudecode for such files, which seem to be limited >to about 20Kbytes (probably enough). > Your node or gateway may not but if you tried Eudora from a Mac or NuPop on a PC and let it do the bin/hex (rather than uuen, (which is the UNIX standard), - the advantage of these programs is that they use the same codeing for both Macs and PCs) encoding/decoding for you I suspect it might work. Since they are Freeware it should be easy enough for you to try. The trick is to find software that does whatever coding is needed invisibly on your PC or Mac and that the party at the other end has the same or compatible software. NuPop and Eudora meet this standard. >I suggest using the underline _ for subscripts and ^ for superscripts as >is done in the WordPerfect equation editor. These characters seem to have >no other use in email document (ASCII) equations - although I have seen the >underline used for emphasis, but that use should not conflict with its use in >equations. > >Ed Piepmeier >Oregon State University Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 10:12:19 EDT From: "R. T. Wilson" Subject: General Discussion There seems to be a dazed silence in response to the call for general discussion. Perhaps everyone is dazzled, as I am, by the incredible richness and variety of the many different ideas presented during this conference. Let me first extend my thanks to the conference organizers, Don Rosenthal and Tom O'Haver, for the hard work they did to make it possible. I am sure "Chemconf" is a landmark which will not be forgotten. My only disappointment is hearing that I have nothing to look forward to until 1994, when Chemconf will apparently rise Phoenix-like from its own ashes to spring to life once more. My first question is: Why shut it down? Why not use Chemconf for _ALL_ ACS meetings and conferences? Are the logistics unmanageable? I can see the advantages of conducting meetings in two parallal formats: electronic and regular. The electronic format makes the meeting instantly accessible to anyone anywhere in the world who has network access. Those who are able to attend could go; those who are not there can still read papers, ask questions and even communicate with the authors personally. This is mind-boggling to me. It is like having consciousness suddenly expanded electronically by orders of magnitude. Tom, I enjoyed reading the background material you pointed out at info.umd.edu in your response of July 21 to one of my earlier questions. I didn't know it was there until then. Is it there all the time? I would suggest you include reference to it in instructions to future conference participants. You might even continue to expand it gradually and wind up with a pretty good textbook of basic computer technology. I will end with an embarrassingly simple and completely trivial question. I know nothing about e-mail systems other than my own, which is Banyan Vines. Some people have quoted so extensively from other peoples communications, I wonder how you are doing it? Does your mail system permit that? As far as I know, the only way I have to do that is to transfer the material to a disc file, massage it with word-processing software, then transfer it back to mail. Is there another way? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 20:56:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: General Discussion In-Reply-To: <9308190002.AA13009@umd5.umd.edu> R. T. Wilson (FCHWILSON%Faculty%VMI@IST.VMI.EDU) says: > My first question is: Why shut it down? Well I have no intention if shutting it down. Anyone can "sign off" if they wish, of course, at any time. But the listserv and the FTP site will be "kept running" for a while, at least, to allow any remaining discussion and to accomodate those who find out about the conference only after the fact and wish to read what we have done here. > Why not use Chemconf for _ALL_ ACS meetings and conferences? > .... This is mind-boggling to me. It is like having consciousness > suddenly expanded electronically by orders of magnitude. Ha! That would be great, No? Maybe some day it will be. But I am afraid that this is too radical an idea. The routine use of e-mail and other network services is still the exception, rather than the rule, among most of the chemistry community - especially in the corridors of power. You folks are at the bleeding edge, in at least this respect. So spread the word about the CHEMCONF concept; talk to your local ACS local section people and representatives. Share what you have learned here; help your friends learn to use their mail systems efficiently. Don't let it stop here. Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 21:39:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: General Discussion In-Reply-To: <9308190002.AA13009@umd5.umd.edu> R. T. Wilson (FCHWILSON%Faculty%VMI@IST.VMI.EDU) says: > Some people have quoted so extensively from other peoples > communications, I wonder how you are doing it? Does your mail > system permit that? Most mail systems can quote an ENTIRE message when you use the Reply command to reply to a previous message, but that's not what you are talking about here. To quote PORTIONS of a previous message, and insert your own text in between the quoted passages, you need to be able to edit the quoted message. Most mail systems also have a built-in editor for composing and editing messages, but if your system is a host-based system that you access via a vt100 terminal program, then its editor is likely to be very limiting and crude by modern standards. Client-server systems, like Eudora or NuPop, or LAN mail systems, are a big improvement. But if your mail system does not have a Reply command and a built-in editor, there is a simple way to quote and edit portions of earlier messages, IF your desktop maching runs a contemporary windowing OS (e.g. Macintosh, Windows, Unix GUI). Just use the mouse to select (drag over) the portion of the message that you want to quote, copy it to the "clipboard", and paste it into an open text editor window (e.g. MacSink on Macintosh, or Windows Write, or any old editor that you are comfortable with). Then edit as you wish, add ">" marks to indicate quoting, add your own message, etc. Then select the whole mess, copy it, go back to the terminal window, start a new message (or reply to one), and paste your message into the terminal window at the place where you would ordinarily type a message. Zip...the text spits out at great speed. When it's done, just type whatever keystroke(s) indicate the end of a message, and you are done. Remember, pasting text into a terminal window is just like typing it (at light speed). It may sound complicated, if you have never done this. But believe me, this select/copy/paste stuff is so incredibly general and useful that it soon becomes absolutely second nature and essential to just about everything you do with a computer these days. It's infinitely faster and more versatile than the old cursor-key, control-key business, once you get the hang of it. You can even use your word processor as a text editor - although it is overkill for simple ASCII text e-mail and you have to remember to type return every 70 or so characters and not to use all those nice non-ASCII characters (like the "degree" symbol and the "mu" charater (for micro) that makes a modern word processor so much better than a typewriter. c.f. Appendix 5d of the Instructions for Participants. Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 21:48:42 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Facilitator Volunteer I too volunteer for 'New Tools vs. Old Methods' I have sufficient time to co-facilitate with Harry Pence and George Long Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 21:22:27 CST From: "John W. Moore" Subject: Re: Paper 14 Simulation I've lost track of when it is appropriate to discuss things, so I apologize if this is too late, but here goes anyway. In Message Sat, 14 Aug 93 23:31:48, : George Long wrote >I believe some of the recent discussion concerning the use >of simulations is interesting given the audience, i.e. >people interested in applying modern technology to chemistry >education. The discussion has seemed to me to focus on when >not to apply simulations (don't replace "real" laboratory >experiments with the simulations). I believe the more >interesting questions are 1) What considerations are most >important in designing a useful simulation experiment?, 2) >Where in the curriculum can simulations be used to greatest >advantage? 3) What part of the laboratory curriculum can be >sacrificed in order to add simulations ? (there are some bad >general chemistry labs that ARE NOT better than good >simulation experiments). 4) How can lecture and lab be >better integrated by the application of computer technology? >(I wonder if this distinction-lecture classes and laboratory >classes in chemistry, isn't an artifact from a bygone era). I am trying to get answers to some of these questions. Last spring in my 350-student gen chem course I used a simulation similar to Moog's Chemulate as a precursor to a laboratory experiment in which students did kinetics by photometric measurements. The program runs on MS-DOS and was written by Dick Ramette of Carleton College. I used the program to teach students how to do initial rate and integrated rate law analysis of data. Only initial rate methods were described in the textbook, so they had to learn the integrated rate law method from the program. They did pretty well, considering that it was a program still under development and it was the first time I tried this. I believe that the simulation helped students learn how to handle the real data they obtained later on in their experiment. (I should mention that they use computers to collect and analyze their experimental data as well as their simulation data, so it is pretty obvious to them that the simulation is relevant.) An important part of this is that the simulation was something for which they could see a subsequent use--namely analysis of lab data to come. This fall I will be doing an evaluation of the use of another simulation, Lake Study by David Whisnant and James McCormick, JCE: Software, 5B(1), 1992. We have been using this as a means of introducing students to the scientific method by presenting a simulated, relevant problem and providing via the computer tools for solving the problem. The evaluation is directed toward the integration of the program into our course, not the program itself. This is the point I want to make--I agree that we need to be thinking a lot more about how these things fit into the curriclum and less about their shortcomings. We can certainly list shortcomings of books and lectures as well, but we still use them (and should use them) for the things they do well. The same applies to computers. I don't think we need to sacrifice part of the lab to do simulations. Both of the ones described above were done as part of the lecture. The full complement of lab work was done as usual. So I would widen that question to "What parts of the curriculum can be sacrificed so that we can include simulations?" The distinction between lecture and lab is a chasm in our curriculum, and we need badly to bridge it. STudents see essentially no connection at all, and as much as we value lab (we cannot substitute simulations for the real thing!) it is largely lip service unless we integrate the lab with the theoretical approach in lecture. > >While some of these ideas have been mentioned in the >discussion, there has been little elaboration. Instead the >discussion has focused on the perceived inadequacies of >simulations. I don't believe anyone would advocate doing >only simulations in lab, but I believe their place in the >curriculum is wider than many of the comments suggest. >Simulations are an important laboratory technique, they will >become even more important in the future, Our courses >should reflect this by including simulations as standard >parts of all courses, not as a novelty or a next best thing >as many have suggested. Obviously, I agree with this paragraph. > >George Long >Indiana University of PA. >GRLONG@grove.iup.edu >or IUP.BITNET John Moore U Wisconsin-Madison JWMoore@macc.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 21:44:08 CST From: "John W. Moore" Subject: Re: Simulations > >Do simulations belong in general chemistry? Or do students require >some degree of scientific maturity before they can appreciate and >profit from simulations? > >Alperson and O'Neil (Alperson, Jay R., and O'Neil, Dennis H., "The >Boxscore: Tutorials 2, Simulations 0", Academic Computing, 1990, 4:5 >February, 18-19 and 47-49.) performed a comparative evaluation of >the effectiveness of tutorial and simulation formats in teaching >lower division undergraduate students in anthropology and >psychology. They found that beginning students learn more from >tutorials than from simulations, based on multiple-choice test >scores and student evaluations. They conclude that simulations are >more effective for upper division undergraduate and graduate >students who already know the fundamentals of the discipline, who >are more self-motivated and who have the required conceptual >framework to direct their own learning. Weyh and Crook (Weyh, John >A. and Crook, Joseph R., "CAI Drill and Practice: is it really that >bad?", Academic Computing, 1988, 2:7, June, 32-36 and 52-54) found >that the use of well-designed drill and practice programs >significantly improved test scores in an introductory chemistry >course dealing with writing and balancing equations, stoichiometric >relationships, and chemical equilibrium. > >Tom O'Haver >U. of Maryland Gee, Tom, I thought you loved simulations. It seems to me that if you want to teach students to do well on multiple-choice tests, simulations are not the way to go. However, that's not what I want to teach students to do, or not the only thing. The big problem as I see it is to find a way to test what simulations can teach, which is much more complicated than " writing and balancing equations, stoichiometric >relationships, and chemical equilibrium" as I am sure you agree. One of the goals of the evaluation of Lake Study that I mentioned earlier is to see if we can determine whether students have improved their knowledge and understanding of the scientific method (whatever that is). It is a pretty nebulous goal, and much harder to measure than if we wanted to know if they could name inorganic compounds. On the other hand, I think it is more important, too. John Moore U. Wisconsin-Madison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 21:58:23 -0600 From: "Gary L. Bertrand" Subject: Re: Paper 14 Simulation John Moore quotes and adds strengths to George Long's >> I believe the more interesting questions are 1) What considerations are most >>important in designing a useful simulation experiment?, 2) >>Where in the curriculum can simulations be used to greatest >>advantage? 3) What part of the laboratory curriculum can be >>sacrificed in order to add simulations ? (there are some bad >>general chemistry labs that ARE NOT better than good >>simulation experiments). 4) How can lecture and lab be >>better integrated by the application of computer technology? >>(I wonder if this distinction-lecture classes and laboratory >>classes in chemistry, isn't an artifact from a bygone era). I wholeheartedly agree. I have gotten my best results with simulations in using them as demonstrations within a lecture - very little prep time, and it works every time! A simulation of the iodine clock reaction written years ago for the Apple IIe has been particularly useful. One "real life" demonstration so that they have a touch of reality, then run through the standard "experiment" in 10 minutes. You can answer their "what if?" questions immediately and graphically. The laboratory time can then be used for another experiment that can't be brought into the classroom. This flexibility in how we deliver our "goods" is an important tool in breaking the distinction between lab and lecture. My present problem is that I'm embarrassed to bring my old IIe into the classroom (The students say, "Hey, we had one of those in Middle School!"), and I haven't been able to get good colors into my HyperCard version - but I'm working on it. *********************************************************** * GARY L. BERTRAND, DEPT OF CHEMISTRY, UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-ROLLA * * ROLLA, MO 65401. (314)-341-4441 * * BITNET- GBERT@UMRVMB INTERNET- GBERT@UMRVMB.UMR.EDU * * "I NEVER WANTED TO BE FAMOUS, I JUST WANTED TO BE GREAT." RAY CHARLES * *********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 23:32:35 -0400 From: theresa Julia Zielinski Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: discussion - testing I have just been catching up with my e-mail and the discussion about testing where there was expressed some concern about students discovering the source of our questions and having access to this source. I wonder why we are so concerned with secrecy for hour exams etc. True exams such as the ACS publishes are confidential but other sources of questions don't need to be. Many fine questions are published in J. Chem. Ed. and students can look there if they want to. I have yet to discover a student doing so. Frankly I think they are too busy and too inexperienced. For the occasional student who has more initiative - well let them look at all the questions they wish to see. Perhaps they will study the one I will use on an exam. Well- I'll take studying any way I can find it. Using exams for assessment is another interesting topic. Assessing outcomes of teaching strategies in quantitative ways would be very difficult and possibly not the real reason for the current interest in assessment that is spreading across campuses. The most important aspect of assessment in class is to determine whether or not the students have 'gotten it' while there is time to implement a new strategy to get them to 'get it'. Then there is the issue of what will be assessed quantitatively. Will it be content? Will we reduce our teaching to meet new standards of content acquisition? Will it be critical thinking - as a chemist would think? This is not so easy. One must train students in critical thinking and this is a four year process. Current measures of critical thinking that I have heard about from colleagues show that little or no change occurs after one course in one semester. Some studies that I have heard of show only a little progress in critical thinking development over 4 years. A lot of literature exists on different methods of teaching. These include: cooperative learning, case studies, mastery learning, simulations, problem based learning, group learning etc. I think that what is missing in chemistry is more examples of these strategies in practice. Paper 12 was a good example of an innovative way to teach organic chemistry. The author of paper 12 asks several important questions wrt alternate teaching methods. "Can non-experts learn from each other?" I think so expecially when there is a teacher/director who orchestrates the learning environment and who acts as a recourse and model for learning. "Can writing lead to understanding?" Of course - we all write to learn - letters, essays, homework of all kinds, but expecially lab reports where we discover what a students understands because the student must articulate their knowledge. You don't know it unless you can explain it to someone else. Then, "Do we serve as teachers if we only help provide the directional signposts?" Of course we do. In fact I think that this is the most important role of the teacher. We must provide the support and direction for the students, like trail guides, so that the students hike the trail themselves. (They are really too big to carry like papooses). We can see this by comparing the word professor to the word educator (e+duc = to lead out). Theresa Theresa Julia Zielinski Niagara University Roszieli@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Chemistry Department Niagara University NY 14109 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 13:50:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: What Every Chemist Needs to Know . . . On Saturday, July 3 I sent a survey form to participants accompanied by the following message: > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 19:29 EDT > From: Donald Rosenthal > Subject: POLL OF PARTICIPANTS ABOUT WHAT EVERY STUDENT SHOULD KNOW > > PAPER 1 > > WHAT EVERY CHEMIST NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT COMPUTERS AND COMPUTING > > There has been considerable discussion during the first session of > this Computer Conference about this topic. In some schools computer > courses are required. In other schools there is no requirement. Some > chemistry departments include much of what students learn about > computers and computing in their chemistry courses. In other schools > much is taught by other Departments. Some students have learned a great > deal about computers and computing before they enter college. > > I would be interested in learning what PARTICIPANTS think EVERY > undergraduate and EVERY graduate student needs to know. I realize that > your answers may be quite subjective. Also, depending upon what a > student does he may use or need to know much more or much less about > computers and computing than what we teach. > > Please fill out and return the following form to ME at > ROSEN2@CLVM.BITNET (NOT TO CHEMCONF) by JULY 16. I will summarize the > results and send the summary out during the General Discussion period > between August 16 and August 20. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thirteen participants responded to my request and returned the form. The respondents (in alphabetical order) were: 1. Gary Bertrand - University of Missouri - Rolla, Missouri 2. Hugh Cartwright - Oxford University, Great Britain 3. Doug Coe - Montana Tech., Butte, Montana 4. Fred Hagemeister - Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana 5. H. Homeier - Univeritaet Regensburg, Regensburg, Germany 6. Reed Howald - Montana State University, Bozeman, Montana 7. I. Brindle - Brock University, St. Catherines, ON, Canada 8. Truman H. Jordan - Cornell College, Cornell, Iowa 9. Jack M. Miller - Brock University, St. Catherines, ON, Canada 10. Gerald Morine - Bemidji State University, Bemidji, Minnesota 11. Donald Rosenthal - Clarkson University, Potsdam, New York 12. Mary L. Swift - Howard University, Washington, DC 13. Gary Williams - The University of Western Australia, Nedlands, Austr. I would like to thank those who responded. I have summarized the individual responses below and "averaged" (AVE.) these responses. Please note the individual responses to the survey questions are NOT listed in the same sequence as the alphabetical sequence presented above. This was done to preserve the anonymity of each individual's responses. However, it may not be difficult to identify the responses of some respondents. Some participants who did not respond to my survey proposed a list of concepts, e.g. see discussion of July 21 (Paper 9). ====================================================================== WHAT SHOULD EVERY CHEMISTRY STUDENT KNOW ABOUT COMPUTERS AND COMPUTING? In answering the following questions you are being asked what is the MINIMUM an undergraduate and a graduate student needs to know about computers and computing. Use the number 1 to indicate that all chemistry students should be REQUIRED to learn about this. 1= REQUIRED, 2 = RECOMMENDED. 3 = PERHAPS. 4 = NO How much should the student learn? A = A LOT. B = SOME. C = A LITTLE. For example, as an answer to question 1, 2-C for undergraduates would mean you RECOMMEND that students learn a LITTLE. 1-B for graduate students would mean you would REQUIRE that graduate students know SOME (but not a LOT). I have asked what PERCENT of your time WHICH YOU DEVOTE TO COMPUTING IS DEVOTED TO THIS PARTICULAR ACTIVITY. For example, in answer to 1, if you indicate 10%, this means that 10% of the time you devote to computing involves programming in a high level general purpose programming language. ====================================================================== RESPONDENTS A : B : C : D : E : F : G : H : I : J : K : L : M :AVE. ===================================================================== 1. HIGH LEVEL GENERAL PURPOSE PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE Undergraduate Students 2B : 3C : 2C : 1B : 1B : 2C : 3B : 2C : C : 2 : 3B : 0 : 2B :2.1 B- Graduate Students 1B : 2B : 1B : 1B : 1B : 1C : 3B : 1A : B : 1 : -- : 10 : 2B :1.5 B You (%) 15 : 20 : 26 : 21 : 3 : 15 : 10 : 49 : 0 : 16 : 5 : 0 : 5 : 14.2 Which language(s)? C, BASIC, PASCAL, Hypertext, UNIX, FORTRAN ====================================================================== 2. SPREADSHEETS Undergraduate Students 1A : 4 : 4 : 3B : 1A : 2A : 1B : 1A : C : 1 : 1B : 20 : 2B :1.9 B Graduate Students 1A : 2B : 3C : 3B : 1A : 2A : 1B : 1A : B : 1 : -- : 20 : 2B :1.7 B+ You (%) 49 : 0 : 0 : 11 : 16 : 5 : 20 : 5 : 5 : 22 : 30 : 60 : 5 : 17.5 Which spreadsheet(s) EXCEL, LOTUS 123, QUATTRO PRO, any ====================================================================== RESPONDENTS A : B : C : D : E : F : G : H : I : J : K : L : M :AVE. ===================================================================== 3. DATABASES Undergraduate Students 2B : 4 : 2C : 2B : 3B : 4B : 2C : -- : C : 3 : 2C : 10 : 2C :2.6 C+ Graduate Students 2A : 1B : 1B : 2B : 3B : 4B : 2C : -- : B : 3 : -- : 0 : 2C :2.4 B- You (%) 4 : 5 : 3 : 4 : 1 : 3 : 0 : 0 : 5 : 5 : 0 : 0 : 2 : 2.5 Which? Paradox for Windows, Chemical abstracts, ERIC, CD-ROM, on-line, Literature, Gopher, NetNews, Oracle, FOXPRO, D-BASE, any ====================================================================== 4. NUMERICAL METHODS SOFTWARE Undergraduate Students 2C : 3C : 2C : 3B : 2B : 4C : 1B : -- : C : 3 : 2B : -- : 2B :2.4 B- Graduate Students 2B : 2B : 1B : 3B : 2B : 4C : 1B : -- : C : 3 : -- : 0 : 2B :2.4 B- You (%) 10 : 5 : 8 : 4 : 2 : 0 : 10 : 0 : 5 : 5 : 5 : 0 : 5 : 4.5 Which? MathCad, TableCurve, Peak Fit, Maple, Mathematica, Derive ====================================================================== 5. STATISTICAL METHODS Undergraduate Students 1B : 4 : 2C : 2B : 2B : 1A : 2B : -- : B : 2 : 1B : 10 : 2B :1.9 B Graduate Students 1B : 1B : 1B : 2B : 1A : 1A : 2B : -- :A-B : 1 : -- : 10 : 1B :1.3 B+ You (%) 10 : 5 : 0 : 4 : 1 : 5 : 0 : 0 : 5 : 5 : 5 : 30 : 5 : 5.8 Which? deviations, uncertainties, sampling, t-test, least squares, SigmaStat, Quattro Pro, Systat, Statview, SAS, Super ANOVA ====================================================================== RESPONDENTS A : B : C : D : E : F : G : H : I : J : K : L : M :AVE. ===================================================================== 6. MOLECULAR MODELLING Undergraduate Students 1B : 4 : 2C : 1B : 1B : 3C : 2B : -- : B : 2 : -- : -- : 2B :2.0 B- Graduate Students 1A : 1B : 1B : 1B : 3C : 2C : 2B : -- : A : 1 : -- : 0 : 1B :1.7 B You (%) 10 : 11 : 0 : 7 : 3 : 1 : 0 : 0 : 10 : 5 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 3.6 Which? Huckel, one of the semi-empiricals, Hyperchem's dynamic simulations, Molview, Chemdraw, Chemedit, PC Model, MM2, Alchemy, Cem 3D+, BIOGRAPH, Spartan, any ====================================================================== 7. PLOTTING Undergraduate Students 1A : 3C : 2C : 1B : 3B : 1A : 1B : 1A : B : 2 : -- : -- : 2B :1.7 B Graduate Students 1A : 1B : 1B : 1B : 3B : 1A : 1B : 1A : B : 1 : -- : 0 : 1B :1.5 B+ You (%) -- : 0 : 1 : 4 : 1 : 10 : 10 : 10 : 5 : 5 : 0 : 0 : 5 : 4.3 Which? Harvard Graphics, Cricket Graph, Deltagraph Pro, SigmaPlot Excel, spreadsheets, my own, any ====================================================================== 8. GRAPHICS Undergraduate Students 2B : 4 : 2C : 3C : 2B : 2C : 3C : -- : B : 1 : 1A : -- : 3C :2.3 B- Graduate Students 2B : 3C : 1B : 2B : 2B : 1C : 3C : -- : B : 1 : -- : 0 : 3C :2.2 B- You (%) 4 : 11 : 0 : 4 : 2 : 10 : 10 : 0 : 5 : 10 : 20 : 0 : 0 : 5.8 Which? Surfer, Neopaint, MacDraw, Corel Draw, First, Quattro Pro, Graphical Analysis, Cricket Graph, my own, any computer design/drawing (ChemWindow) ====================================================================== RESPONDENTS A : B : C : D : E : F : G : H : I : J : K : L : M :AVE. ====================================================================== 9. OPERATING SYSTEM(S) Undergraduate Students 1B : 4 : 2C : 4 : 1B : 2C : 3C : 2B : B : 3 : 3C : -- : 2C :2.5 C+ Graduate Students 1B : 3B : 1B : 2B : 2B : 2C : 3C : 1A : B : 3 : -- : 0 : 2C :2.2 B- You (%) NA : 0 : 26 : 14 : 3 : 3 : 0 : 24 : 5 : 5 : 5 : 0 : 2 : 7.3 Which? UNIX, MSDOS, X11, Windows NT, MAC System 7, VAX VMS, OS/2 ====================================================================== 10. UTILITIES PROGRAMS Undergraduate Students 1B : -- : 2C : 2B : 2C : 3C : 2B : -- : C : 4 : 4 : -- : 2C :2.4 C+ Graduate Students 1B : -- : 1C : 1B : 2C : 3C : 2B : -- : C : 4 : -- : 0 : 2C :2.2 C+ You (%) NA : -- : 6 : 4 : 4 : 2 : 5 : 0 : 5 : 5 : 5 : 0 : 0 : 3.3 Which? Windows File Manager, Norton Utilities, compiler, makefiles, a2ps, dvips, calendar manager, mailtool, filemanager, conversion of graphic formats, Norton Commander, X-Tree, Sidekick, UUtool ====================================================================== 11. ELECTRONIC MAIL Undergraduate Students 3B : 3C : 3C : 1C : 3C : 2C : 1B : 2B : B : 1 : 1B : -- : 2B :2.0 B- Graduate Students 2B : 1A : 2B : 1B : 3C : 1A : 1B : 1A : A : 1 : -- : 0 : 2B :1.7 B+ You (%) 4 : 7 : 6 : 4 : 5 : 8 : 10 : 5 : 5 : 5 : 10 : 10 : 24 : 7.9 Which? Ethernet, Internet, Aarnet, Unix mail, ean, pmail, HP ELM, Pathworks, Eudora, Spartan, Bitnet, any ====================================================================== RESPONDENTS A : B : C : D : E : F : G : H : I : J : K : L : M :AVE. ====================================================================== 12. NETWORKS AND NETWORKING Undergraduate Students 3C : 4 : 3C : 4 : 3C : 4C : 1C : 3C : C : 1 : 4 : -- : 2B :2.9 C Graduate Students 3C : 3C : 1B : 4 : 3C : 3B : 1C : 3C : B : 1 : -- : 0 : 2B :2.5 C+ You (%) NA : 5 : 6 : 11 : 3 : 3 : 0 : 1 : 5 : 10 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 3.7 Which? Internet, Novell, ftp, Telnet, Gophers, Archie, Veronica, MAC, NFS (NSF ?) ====================================================================== 13. ON-LINE SEARCHING Undergraduate Students 2B : 4 : 2C : 1C : 1B : 1C : 1B : -- : C : 2 : 2C : -- : 2B :1.8 B- Graduate Students 2B : 1A : 1B : 1B : 1A : 1A : 1B : -- : B : 1 : -- : 0 : 2B :1.5 B+ You (%) 4 : 11 : 3 : 4 : 2 : 3 : 5 : 0 : 5 : 0 : 5 : 0 : 2 : 3.4 Which? Chemical Abstracts Online, ERIC, Gopher, STN, DIALOG, ORBIT, Turbogopher, Hytelnet, Telnet, Fetchit, Books in Print, mailing lists ====================================================================== 14. OTHER LANGUAGES OR SOFTWARE Undergraduate Students -- : 4 : 2C : 4 : 1A : 3C : 1B : -- : A : -- : 4 : -- : -- :2.7 B- Graduate Students -- : 4 : 1B : 3C : 1A : 3C : 1B : -- : A : -- : -- : 0 : -- :2.4 B- You (%) 0 : 4 : 13 : 0 : 50 : 3 : 20 : 0 : 20 : 0 : 0 : 0 : -- : 8.5 Which? WORD PERFECT, MS WORD, TeX, desktop publishing, ====================================================================== RESPONDENTS A : B : C : D : E : F : G : H : I : J : K : L : M :AVE. ====================================================================== 15. COMPUTER INTERFACED INSTRUMENTS Undergraduate Students 2B : 4 : 2C : 1C : 1A : 1B : 3C : 2B : B : 3 : 1C : -- : 2B :2.0 B- Graduate Students 1B : 2B : 1B : 1C : 1A : 1B : 3C : 1A : A : 2 : -- : 40 : 2B :1.5 B+ You (%) 0 : 5 : 0 : 4 : 1 : 8 : 0 : 5 : 5 : 2 : 5 : -- : 0 : 2.9 Which? PSL, interfacing experiments, use interfaced instruments, SCI technologies, National Instruments, Montana Interface Inc. UV-Visible Specrtrophotometers, almost all instruments, Apple Interface by Vernier ====================================================================== 16. COMPUTER HARDWARE AND ARCHITECTURE Undergraduate Students 2C : 3B : 3C : 4 : 3C : 3C : 3C : 3C : C : -- : 4 : -- : 2B :3.0 C+ Graduate Students 2C : 2B : 2B : 4 : 3C : 2B : 3C : 2A : B : -- : -- : 0 : 2B :2.4 B- You (%) NA : 0 : 0 : 0 : 1 : 5 : 0 : 1 : 5 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 1 Which? Basics, needed for interfacing, general principles with specifics as required by their research, fundamentals of CISC and RISC chips ====================================================================== 17. INTERFACING Undergraduate Students 2C : 4 : 3C : 1C : 2B : 1B : 3C : 3C : B : -- : 1C : -- : 2C :2.2 C+ Graduate Students 2C : 3C : 2B : 1C : 2B : 1B : 3C : 2A : B : -- : -- : 20 : 2C :2.0 B- You (%) NA : 0 : 0 : 4 : 1 : 8 : 0 : 0 : 5 : 0 : 5 : 0 : 0 : 1.9 Which? Needed for interfaced instruments (15) ====================================================================== RESPONDENTS A : B : C : D : E : F : G : H : I : J : K : L : M :AVE. ====================================================================== 18. OTHER COMPUTER SKILLS OR SOFTWARE Undergraduate Students -- : -- : 2C : -- : 3C : 2A : 3C : -- : -- : -- : 1C : -- : 1B :2.0 B Graduate Students -- : 1A : 1B : -- : 1A : 2A : 3C : -- : -- : -- : -- : -- : 1A :1.5 A- You (%) 0 : 11 : 3 : 0 : 1 : 8 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 0 : 45 : 5.2 Which? Ability to evaluate hardware and software as a basis for purchasing decisions, editors, chemical equilibrium programs like PHREEQUE, MINTEQ, typing, word processing, making tables, using files, word processing using Word Perfect or MS WORD. ====================================================================== GENERAL QUESTIONS QUESTION 19 On the average how many hours do you spend on all the above listed computer activities each week? 38 : 15 : 30 : 25 : 25 : 40 : 18 : 28 : 20 : 8 : 10 : 2 : 20 : 21.5 ====================================================================== QUESTION 20 Some universities have accepted demonstrated proficiency in computing or a computing language as fulfilling the requirement for one foreign language. Is this desirable? No : No : No : No : Yes: Yes: No : Yes: Yes: Yes: No : Yes: Yes: ====================================================================== RESPONDENTS A : B : C : D : E : F : G : H : I : J : K : L : M :AVE. ====================================================================== ====================================================================== BRIEF ANALYSIS AND CRITIQUE I will not attempt to analyze the responses in any detail, I leave that task to the individual participants. The responses to Question 19 indicate that respondents spend from 2 to 40 hours per week with the average being 21.5 hours. There was considerable variation about how each respondent allocated his time (as one would expect). The survey results need to be considered together with the answers to Question 19. For example, respondent L who spends 60 percent of his time working with spreadsheets actually is spending 1.2 hours per week on this activity. Respondent D spends 11 percent (2.8 hours) and respondent E spends 16 percent (6.4 hours) working on spreadsheets. Respondents I, J and L did not use the evaluation system I expected. (Teachers as well as students don't always follow directions.) I "averaged" their responses as best I could along with the others. Respondent L indicated percent of computing time which graduate and undergraduate students should devote to each activity. Individual responses to some of the survey questions varied widely. For example, spreadsheets would be required of undergraduates by six respondents, and were not recommended by two respondents. In retrospect, I should have listed word processing. Word processing was listed be some respondents in response to either question 14 or 18. Others didn't list it at all. Respondent D indicated that 33 % of his weekly 25 hours was devoted to word processing. Other reports of word processing useage: Respondent C (12 %), E (50 %), F (15 %), G (20 %), I (20 %), M (45 %). The average is 29 % (6.7 hours per week). As answers to the question Which? ( mostly software) - respondents indicated either the software they were using and/or what they were recommending for student instruction. PERHAPS SOME OF YOU WOULD LIKE TO ADD TO THE LIST OF RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE. IF SO, PLEASE DESCRIBE IT BRIEFLY AND INDICATE WHERE IT COULD BE INCLUDED IN THIS SURVEY CLASSIFICATION SCHEME, I.E. SPREADSHEETS, UTILITY PROGRAMS, ELECTRONIC MAIL, ETC. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 08:08:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Simulations In-Reply-To: <9308190323.AA01564@umd5.umd.edu> John W. Moore: > Gee, Tom, I thought you loved simulations. I still do, actually. I was just pointing out some contrary evidence (other people's, not my own). The scientific method, you know.... It does show, however, how far our thinking has evolved in just a few short years, since the time of those papers. I agree with you and with others who have voiced the opinion that much depends on what we test for. It does no good to pay lip service to critical thinking, higher-order thinking, the scientific method, learning how to learn, etc, if we continue to test for ths same old stuff. Too often, the bottom line that people want to see is improved scores on the standardized examinations. We can re-make our courses; can we re-make our standardized examinations? Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 08:35:21 -0400 From: Robert Nelson Subject: Re: discussion - testing Several participants have expressed concerns about the "security" of exam questions sent across a network. Given that many instructors place copies of old exams on reserve in the library - including in my case the final which is NOT RETURNED to the students, I see no problem in placing copies of exams on the network. It would be different if we were actually administering the exam over the network, then many problems of both security and time constraints become important. Robert N. Nelson Assoc. Prof. of Chemistry Ga. So. Univ. Chemistry - 8064 Statesboro, GA 30460-8064 912-681-5675 rnnelson@gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 08:42:37 EDT From: "R. T. Wilson" There seems to be a dazed silence in response to the call for general discussion. Perhaps everyone is dazzled, as I am, by the incredible richness and variety of the many different ideas presented during this conference. Let me first extend my thanks to the conference organizers, Don Rosenthal and Tom O'Haver, for the hard work they did to make it possible. I am sure "Chemconf" is a landmark which will not be forgotten. My only disappointment is hearing that I have nothing to look forward to until 1994, when Chemconf will apparently rise Phoenix-like from its own ashes to spring to life once more. My first question is: Why shut it down? Why not use Chemconf for _ALL_ ACS meetings and conferences? Are the logistics unmanageable? I can see the advantages of conducting meetings in two parallal formats: electronic and regular. The electronic format makes the meeting instantly accessible to anyone anywhere in the world who has network access. Those who are able to attend could go; those who are not there can still read papers, ask questions and even communicate with the authors personally. This is mind-boggling to me. It is like having consciousness suddenly expanded electronically by orders of magnitude. Tom, I enjoyed reading the background material you pointed out at info.umd.edu in your response of July 21 to one of my earlier questions. I didn't know it was there until then. Is it there all the time? I would suggest you include reference to it in instructions to future conference participants. You might even continue to expand it gradually and wind up with a pretty good textbook of basic computer technology. I will end with an embarrassingly simple and completely trivial question. I know nothing about e-mail systems other than my own, which is Banyan Vines. Some people have quoted so extensively from other peoples communications, I wonder how you are doing it. Does your mail system permit that? As far as I know, the only way I have to do that is to transfer the material to a disc file, massage it with word-processing software, then transfer it back to mail. Is there another way? (Please excuse me if you receive this message twice; our mail system has been down for modifications. Perhaps things have not been as silent as I thought.) Terrell Wilson Department of Chemistry Virginia Military Institute Lexington, Virginia 24450 e-mail: fchwilson%faculty%vmi@ist.vmi.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 09:05:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Buried in e-mail A number of people have made comments to the effect that they have been overwhelmed with the volume of correspondence on ChemConf. We did generate an amazing amount of discussion, didn't we? Fortunately, everything that happened in CHEMCONF is saved and can be accessed after the fact. First of all, you can access the papers themselves by sending an e-mail message to LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU or LISTSERV@UMDD.BITNET (whichever one works for you) in which the message body contains one or more of the following lines: GET CHEMCONF WELCOME GET PAPER1 TEXT GET PAPER1 FIGURE1 GET PAPER1 FIGURE2 GET PAPER2 TEXT etc. To get a more complete listing of all available files, send the message INDEX CHEMCONF. Secondly, you can get a complete transcript of all discussions by sending a message (again to LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU or to LISTSERV@UMDD.BITNET) containing one or more of the following lines: GET CHEMCONF LOG9306 GET CHEMCONF LOG9307 GET CHEMCONF LOG9307D GET CHEMCONF LOG9307E GET CHEMCONF LOG9308A GET CHEMCONF LOG9308B GET CHEMCONF LOG9308C These transcripts will include all notices, questions, answers, and discussion so far in the conference, in chronological order. LOG9306 is June, LOG9307 is the first three weeks of July, LOG9307D is the 4th week of July, LOG9308A is the first week of August, and so forth. Note that these messages must be sent to the LISTSERV host computer (LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU or LISTSERV@UMDD.BITNET), and NOT to the conference participants at CHEMCONF@UMDD. Finally, the most powerful aspect of the LISTSERV is that it is actually possible to SEARCH THE ENTIRE DISCUSSION TEXT GLOBALLY for any keyword(s) that you are interested in. LISTSERV will return the complete text of any and all messages that contain those keywords. I will shortly post, as a separate message, instructions on how to do this, with several examples of searches and their results. Tom O'Haver P.S. The volume of text that we produced this summer, as great as it is, is probably not much compared to all the chemistry- and education-related material that is typically published over a similar two-month period by the print publication industry (books and journals). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 09:18:51 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: General Discussion > R. T. Wilson (FCHWILSON%Faculty%VMI@IST.VMI.EDU) says: > >> My first question is: Why shut it down? > >Well I have no intention if shutting it down. Anyone can "sign off" >if they wish, of course, at any time. But the listserv and the FTP >site will be "kept running" for a while, at least, to allow >any remaining discussion and to accomodate those who find out about >the conference only after the fact and wish to read what we have done >here. > >> Why not use Chemconf for _ALL_ ACS meetings and conferences? >> .... This is mind-boggling to me. It is like having consciousness >> suddenly expanded electronically by orders of magnitude. > >Ha! That would be great, No? Maybe some day it will be. But I am >afraid that this is too radical an idea. The routine use of e-mail >and other network services is still the exception, rather than the >rule, among most of the chemistry community - especially in the >corridors of power. You folks are at the bleeding edge, in at least >this respect. So spread the word about the CHEMCONF concept; talk to >your local ACS local section people and representatives. Share what >you have learned here; help your friends learn to use their mail systems >efficiently. Don't let it stop here. > >Tom O'Haver Given the present technology the thousands of papers at an ACS meeting and full scale discussion involving thousands of people would fill ourhard disks daily. I can see LISTSERV software developing in the future to the point of having something that might be called CONFSERV specifically designed for conferences which would automatically distribute general info to all participants but permit subscribing to the discussion portion on a paper by paper basis -- i.e.the selectivity we use in going to particular oral papers or reading particular posters -- we generated 1.5 MB was it from 15 papers and 300 people -- increase to 150 and 300 and we have 150 MB not allowing for the fact that more oopinionated people in the discussion will engender mor opinionated coments. Anyway - hopefully this might give the Listserv experts if any are listening something to think about. Another alternative offered by some lists is an hour a week when everyone goes live in a conference session -- I forget what it is called but it is running for Screen-L that my wife subscribes to (she's not tried the live bit) and several other lists. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 09:29:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Keyword searching How to Search the CHEMCONF Message Database (Modified for CHEMCONF from the original by Charles W. Bailey, Jr.) All of the discussion that takes place on any LISTSERV discussion list, including CHEMCONF, is archived (saved) by the LISTSERV host and can be accessed by anyone at any time by e-mail. So if you missed part of a discussion and want to look back at what was said, or if you are curious whether anyone has mentioned a particular topic anywhere in the conference, you have access to everything anyone has said at any time. The most selective way to retrieve such information is by keyword search. Here's a tutorial on how to search the CHEMCONF message database and retrieve information by keyword. First, suppose you want to search for all messages that have the term "Hypertext" in them and ask the LISTSERV to send you all of them. To do so, create an e-mail message with the following information in it, and send it to LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU (DON'T send it to CHEMCONF@UMDD.UMD.EDU): // Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * Search Hypertext in CHEMCONF Print all /* You can use the above 5 lines as a template for your own searches; just copy and paste those 5 lines into your editor, change the word "Hypertext" as appropriate, and mail it to LISTSERV. By the way, in this context, "Print" really means "return by e-mail". Once LISTSERV has received and processed your search request, it will mail you back two things: a message that tells us how the job went and another message that contains the actual output file, called DATABASE OUTPUT, which consists of all matching messages concatenated into one big message. If you anticipate that the volume of returned messages will be two great to take all at once, or you just want to know how many messages match your search term, you can ask for an "index" that will tell you which messages have this search term. // Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * Search Hypertext in CHEMCONF Index /* Here's what you get back: > Search Hypertext in CHEMCONF --> Database CHEMCONF, 137 hits. > Index Item # Date Time Recs Subject ------ ---- ---- ---- ------- 000022 89/06/30 08:31 306 Common Knowledge Info. 000047 89/07/07 08:15 18 Hypertext Conference 000075 89/07/12 17:13 21 Hypertext & Hypermedia Articles 000088 89/07/13 16:19 17 CD-ROM Expo '89 000194 89/07/22 14:11 25 Hyperdoc 000248 89/07/30 20:00 23 Hypertext Hands-On! 000251 89/07/31 12:52 14 Re: Hypertext Hands-On! 000253 89/07/31 15:04 47 Was: Hypertext Hands-On! 000267 89/08/03 09:38 24 A New Journal -- Hypermedia 000311 89/08/11 12:18 23 Hypermedia & Optical Tech. Resources 000338 89/08/17 11:37 33 Hypermedia/Multimedia [The rest of the list is omitted.] Suppose you want to see only number 267 (the messages are numbered at the left). Send a second job to LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU with the following lines in it: // Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * Search Hypertext in CHEMCONF Print all of 267 /* You will get back a file that contains just that message. To print multiple messages, just add the additional numbers: Print all of 267 311 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's a brief summary of some more advanced search features. The Boolean "AND" operator is implicit: Search hypertext hypermedia in CHEMCONF You can also make the "AND" operator explicit: Search hypertext AND hypermedia in CHEMCONF The Boolean "OR" operator is explicit: Search hypertext OR hypermedia in CHEMCONF The Boolean "NOT" operator is also explicit: Search hypertext NOT hypermedia in CHEMCONF Terms can be nested: Search (hypertext OR hypermedia) AND multimedia in CHEMCONF You can also limit searches in the CHEMCONF message database by date. The first technique is to search for records in a date range. As you recall, the search request is sent to LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU as an e-mail message. Note how the dates are constructed. // Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * Search Hypertext in CHEMCONF from 93/1/1 to 93/4/30 Index /* Another technique is to request messages since a specified date. Here is a sample search: // Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * Search Hypertext in CHEMCONF since 1/93 Index /* A final technique uses the asterisk wildcard character to retrieve all messages in a date range: // Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * Search * in CHEMCONF from 93/4/1 to 93/4/30 Index /* This search results in a handy index of all the CHEMCONF messages sent out in April 1993. -------------------------------- To get a more complete explanation, send a message to LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU that says: INFO DATABASE ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 10:39:54 -0400 From: "Frank W. Darrow" Subject: Re: discussion - testing >Several participants have expressed concerns about the "security" of >exam questions sent across a network. Given that many instructors >place copies of old exams on reserve in the library - including in my >case the final which is NOT RETURNED to the students, I see no problem >in placing copies of exams on the network. It would be different if >we were actually administering the exam over the network, then many >problems of both security and time constraints become important. > >Robert N. Nelson Assoc. Prof. of Chemistry Ga. So. Univ. >Chemistry - 8064 Statesboro, GA 30460-8064 912-681-5675 >rnnelson@gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu I agree. If students want to sift through the many questions that will be available in the hopes of perhaps finding one sort of like the modified version that I will use in my next exam, then they will probably learn a few things, and I am for that. ---------- Frank W. Darrow, Chemistry Dept., Ithaca College, Ithaca, NY 14850 Darrow@Ithaca.BitNet (607) 274-3991 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 10:54:50 -0400 From: "CARL H. SNYDER, CHEMISTRY; CSnyder@umiami.ir.miami.edu" Subject: Re: discussion - testing In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Thu, 19 Aug 1993 10:39:54 -0400" <01H1XDDUJ1N68WXX31@umiami.ir.miami.edu> As I pointed out in Paper 11, one of the great advantages of placing any or all old examination questions on a server is that gets students using the computer as a source of information. That's a gain right there. Carl H. Snyder Internet: CSNYDER@umiami.IR.Miami.EDU Chemistry Department Bitnet: CSNYDER@umiami University of Miami Phone: (305)-284-2174 Coral Gables, FL 33124 FAX: (305)-285-4571 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 11:33:20 -0500 From: Carolyn Sweeney Judd Subject: Re: Keyword searching In-Reply-To: <9308191451.AA25182@umd5.umd.edu> Dear Tom, Your instructions on how to do keyword searching is but another example of what a great teacher you have been throughout this conference. Thank you for sharing your enthusiasm and your knowledge. The idea of being to electronically attend ACS Meetings is exciting. In my petition, what should I request? A full-time person to run the conference? I am not sure what all would be involved? Any hints? Carolyn S. Judd Central College, Houston Community College System 1300 Holman Houston TX 77004 713-630-1103 cjudd@tenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 10:28:51 PDT From: Steve Lower Subject: Re: discussion - testing In-Reply-To: <9308191507.AA20507@whistler.sfu.ca>; from "Frank W. Darrow" at Aug 19, 93 10:39 am > > >Several participants have expressed concerns about the "security" of > >exam questions sent across a network. I understand that the 1000+ question Chemistry exam database that the California State Colleges use was at one time on sale in some of their campus bookstores... a great study aid. By the way, I did download a copy of their Socrates-PC system and the Chemistry database some months ago, but probably won't have a chance to do anything with it until I go on sabattical next year. Has anyone else done anything with it? -- Steve Lower - Dept of Chemistry - Simon Fraser University (lower@sfu.ca) Burnaby BC V5A 1S6 Canada (604)-291-3353 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 14:54:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: HELP!! - No More Facilitator Volunteers for a While Participants: I'm overwhelmed by the number of volunteers! Since Committee members sometimes assume someone else will do the job and nothing gets done - it is important there be a conscientious Chair (Primary Facilitator). This Chair should attempt to organize things and set up a network with co-facilitators, if any. If Chairs prefer to work alone that is their perogative. Based upon messages received I assume the following are willing to serve: A. New Tools vs Old Methods - Harry Pence(volunteer George Long) B. The Use of Networks and Electronic Mail - Carl Snyder (Paul Edwards) C. What Chemists (or Chemistry Students) Need to Know - Anthony Rosati (volunteer - Mary L. Swift) D. The Use of Simulations - Gary L. Bertrand (volunteer - Judith Faye Rubinson) E. Testing - Reed Howald -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If these Primary Facilitator assignments are not satisfactory, please let me (or CHEMCONF) know immediately. Anyone wishing to serve as co-facilitator should contact the chair rather than the list. In the memo of August 17 I suggested that the following discussion schedule be established: Week beginning August 30 - Discussion of New Tools vs Old Tools Week of September 6 - Networks and Electronic Mail Week of September 13 - What Chemists (Chemistry Students) Need to Know . . Week of September 20 - Simulations -------------------------------------------------------------------------- IS THIS SCHEDULE SATISFACTORY - PRIMARY FACILITATORS? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would suggest that the facilitators manage these sessions. Early on the first day (or even the Sunday before) transmit a statement indicating what information you'd like to have from participants -e.g. software, references, answers to specific questions, etc. The week is yours to handle in any way you deem appropriate. Ignore my suggestions, if they seem inappropriate or you wish to do it differently. If you have time you might want to compile a bibliography of conference discussion prior to your session. Advice is cheap. Don Rosenthal ROSEN1@CLVM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 15:35:22 EDT From: Charlie Abrams Subject: Re: Keyword searching In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 19 AUG 1993 04:33:20 EDT I'm really interested in the information about keyword searching. But the LISTSERV mailer didn't send it to me!?? I've gotten all the other messages, apparently. Would someone please send me a copy of Tom's instructions for keyword searching? Thanks. Charles B. Abrams McGill University (514) 398-6224 cx7q@musica.mcgill.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 15:33:13 -500 From: Scott VanBramer Subject: Chemed-L In-Reply-To: <9308191857.AA23218@eagle.lhup.edu> The Chemed-L database has been mentioned a number of times during the course of the conference. Could someone please post some information about this, I am very interested. Thank you very much. Scott Van Bramer Department of Chemistry Lock Haven University Lock Haven, PA 17745 svanbram@eagle.lhup.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 15:36:40 -500 From: Scott VanBramer Subject: Moving Files In-Reply-To: <9308191857.AA23218@eagle.lhup.edu> Several people have commented about methods for moving files around using NuPop and Endora. I have not heard mention of PINE which we have on our mainframe. I have been moving files (both word processor and spreadsheet) around by uploading them to the mainframe and then attaching them to an e-mail message with Pine. Is this accomplishing the same thing as NuPop and Endora (abit more clumsily it sounds.)? Are these attachments "standardized" so that they could be read by other e-mail software? Do other places use Pine? Scott Van Bramer Department of Chemistry Lock Haven University Lock Haven, PA 17745 svanbram@eagle.lhup.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 15:55:05 EST From: Caesar Senoff Subject: Re: Moving Files In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 Aug 1993 15:36:40 -500 from The University of Guelph has just adopted PINE as its central e-mail facility. It is anticipated that it'll be fully operational by September 1 so that both students and faculty can use it. I'm not very familiar with PINE, but from the little of it that I've seen, it's better than our current system -- cms. Caesar Senoff Department of Chemistry & Biochemistry Chmsenof@vm.UoGuelph.ca or my new PINE address: CSenoff@UoGuelph.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 15:01:39 -0500 Reply-To: "theodore p. labuza" From: "theodore p. labuza" Subject: Testing As I pointed out in an earlierv discussion, I teach an introductory course in food science that introduces the concepts of chemistry, physic, engineering an microbiology to students under the guise of learning the why and how of the processing of foods. For example we use rudimentary kinetics and heat transfer to see how one decides how long a can of corn must be thermally processed in a retort to make it safe yet still retain acceptable nutrient level, taste and color. For 10 years I always had three in-class closed book exams but I always put all the old exams into a college old test file. I never look at tyhe old exams myself when I make the new ones. I also put the last years exams with key in the course notebook they buy. If the students were memorizing exams then one wouild expect perhaps that the average scores would increase every year over the past, this has not happed, it is always about 68-72. These are short esay and definition type quizes, not multiple choice. A question might be " Contrast the difference in functionalit between a simple sugar such as glucose vs a carbihydrate polymer such as amylose". A few years ago I switched to open notes, books exams using essentially the same style. The students felt more at ease and yet the average on the exam did not go up by more than two points. Interesting phenomena. The ones who spent most of their time "Hunting" for answers usually got the lowest scores.This is usually a sophomore to junior level course. For my other courses which are grads and seniors (eg Reaction Kinetics of Food and Drug Deterioration"and "Physics and Chemistry of Water in Biological Systems") there is only one in open book in-class exam in the middle of the quarter, and they also have one or two take home exams which take about 20 hours each to do, part of which is the evaluation of the kinetics used in some published paper as well as other practical problems. Some parts they can choose to work with classmates. I also allow a 30 minute in class session which they organize to discuss the approaches to answering the final take home exam. As I note to them, in the real world they have to work with others in order to make the company succeed, if not they they will be fired since a company cannot tolerate someone not sharing important knowledge to solve a problem. The closed book in-class exam is 1809 degrees opposite to this approach and encourages students not to help others. My industrial colleagues like the former approach to testing better. They also have weekly group presentations on currently publishe papers which cover the area I am covering in class. In the course evaluations they always rate the evaluation (grading) process quite well except for a few. I have only had one instance of outright cheating on the take home in 15 years. Dr Ted Labuza tplabuza@EPX.CIS.UMN.EDU or tplabuza@staff.tc.umn.edu Department of Food Science & Nutrition 136 AMLMS U of Minnesota St Paul, MN 55108 Home Fax 612-633-0627 Voice 612-624-9701 UM Fax 612-625-5272 "SURFING THE WAVES OF CYBERSPACE" ___ || | \| |__| | ---|---- / \ |___/__/\_____/ \ /\ /\ /\/\/\/\ / \ /\ / \/ \ /\/ \ / \/ \/ \/ \/ Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once". Except in my office which exists in a time warp!!! There is noo such thing as a poverty of time, rather we have a poverty of being able to say "NO". ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 16:52:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Chemed-L In-Reply-To: <9308192047.AA22382@umd5.umd.edu> >The Chemed-L database has been mentioned a number of times during the >course of the conference. Could someone please post some information >about this, I am very interested. Thank you very much. > >Scott Van Bramer >Department of Chemistry >Lock Haven University >Lock Haven, PA 17745 >svanbram@eagle.lhup.edu Here is information on several chemistry-related lists: Discussion lists relevant to Chemistry are listed below. Format of the entries: Name Mail Address for subscriptions Message to be sent Chemistry Education Discussion Group LISTSERV@UWF.bitnet SUB CHEMED-L your_name Chemical Information Sources List LISTSERV@IUBVM.BITNET or LISTSERV@UCS.INDIANA.EDU SUB CHMINF-L your_name HyperChem Users' E-Mail Group hyperchem-request@autodesk.com message requesting to be added Computational Chemistry List (CCL) OSCPOST@oscsunb.osc.edu or OSCPOST@OHSTPY.BITNET send help from chemistry Chemometrics Discussion Group LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU or LISTSERV@UMDD.BITNET SUB ICS-L your_name Forensic Sciences Discussion Group FORENS-REQUEST@ACC.FAU.EDU or FORENS-REQUEST@FAUVAX.bitnet SUB FORENS-L your_name Interfacial Phenomena Discussion Group LISTSERV@WSUVM1.BITNET SUB IFPHEN-L your_name Corrosion List LISTRALV@IB.RL.AC.UK SUB CORROS-L your_name > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 16:53:23 -0400 From: Rory Cory Subject: Re: Moving Files In-Reply-To: <9308192039.AA03466@julian.uwo.ca> On Thu, 19 Aug 1993, Scott VanBramer wrote: > Several people have commented about methods for moving files around using > NuPop and Endora. I have not heard mention of PINE which we have on our > mainframe. I have been moving files (both word processor and > spreadsheet) around by uploading them to the mainframe and then attaching > them to an e-mail message with Pine. Is this accomplishing the same thing > as NuPop and Endora (abit more clumsily it sounds.)? Are these attachments > "standardized" so that they could be read by other e-mail software? Do > other places use Pine? I am using Pine right now, but I haven't tried attaching files to messages yet. I'd also be interested in the answers to these questions. O=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=O Prof. Robert M. Cory, Chemistry Dept, U. Western Ontario, London N6A 5B7 CANADA Office (519)679-2111x6339; Home (519)472-8866; FAX (519)661-3022; cory@uwo.ca O=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=C=O ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 15:39:28 -0600 From: "Douglas A. Coe" Subject: edu subscription address for CHEMED-L Some time ago Barbara Gaddis asked how to subscribe to CHEMED-L. This was a question that I also had, but I never saw an answer posted. I still want to know the address to subscribe to CHEMED-L from an internet, edu, site. If anyone can give assistance, I would appreciate it. Thanks, Doug Coe dacoe@mtvms2.mtech.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 17:23:45 EST From: "Gary Wiggins, Indiana U. Chem. Lib., 812-855-9452" Subject: CHMINF-L correction The recent list of chemistry-related lists has a mistake in the Internet address for CHMINF-L, the Chemical Information Sources Discussion List. The correct address is: LISTSERV@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA EDU Gary Wiggins Indiana University Chemistry Library ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 18:40:07 SEC From: manuel m martinez I want to say, like Jack Martin Miller, congratulations to Tom and Don for the HUGE work done with this conference. Just here, I do not know how many miles away from all the distant places, in Chile I had the opportunity to read all the papers, the discussions and after the conference, I still receive very useful information about searching the database. We still increase our common knowledge about networks. Again, thanks for this opportunity. Manuel M. Martinez. Department of Chemistry. Faculty of Science. Universidad de Santiago de CHILE. e-mail: mmartine@usachvm1.usach.cl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 08:18:19 GMT+2 From: Dr Zeno Apostolides Organization: University of Pretoria Subject: Re: discussion - testing I agree with previous writers, "if the students want to learn the answers to the many questions in the data bank, they will probably learn some chemistry". The operative word is MANY...! Dr Z Apostolides TEL (27)-(012)-420-2486 Department Of Biochemistry FAX (27)-(012)-43-2185 or 342-1449 University of Pretoria e-mail InterNet:bio0@navi.up.ac.za Pretoria 0002 South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 07:53:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: Re: Moving Files As a matter of fact, I use (and like) Pine myself. It is a UNIX host-based system, accessed via vt100 terminal session, but it does have a built-in editor and several nice features. > Are these attachments "standardized" so that they could be > read by other e-mail software? Certainly text attachments can be read by other software. But if a Pine message with a binary attachment is received by a non-MIME-compliant mail program, it just lists the binary attachment as "BASE64" encoded text after the main body of the message. I have not yet learned what to do with this BASE64 encoded text. The other problem is that if you want to attach a file from your local file system, you must first upload the file to the file syustem of the host, then attach it to an outgoing Pine message. Pine, like most host software, has no knowledge of your local file system. For that, you need client software that is smarter than a vt100 terminal emulator. Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 09:23:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: End of Conference Message MEMORANDUM To: Tom O'Haver and Participants in the Computer Conference on "Applications of Technology in Teaching Chemistry" From: Donald Rosenthal Box 5810 Department of Chemistry Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699-5810 315-265-9242 ROSEN@CLVM.BITNET Date: August 20, 1993 On behalf of the ACS Division of Chemical Education's Committee on Computers in Chemical Education (C.C.C.E.) I'd like to thank Tom O'Haver for doing such an excellent job in organizing and managing this conference and to thank the authors and other participants for helping to make the conference such a success. In addition, I'd like to thank the University of Maryland for providing the computing resources which made the conference possible. Many of us have been stimulated and enlightened from what transpired during the last few months. By way of background: About a year and a half ago, a conference on problem solving was announced on the Chemistry Education Discussion List. This conference was being held in a rather remote part of New York State. Tom O'Haver suggested that such meetings could instead easily be held as computer conferences. Since C.C.C.E.'s purpose is to promote and publicize the use of computers in chemical education, I wrote Tom (a member of the Committee) to suggest the C.C.C.E. sponsor a computer conference. I asked Tom if he would be willing to manage the meeting. Tom agreed to do so and the rest is history. On Tuesday, August 17 Terrell Wilson asked: > Why not use Chemconf for ALL ACS meetings? Computer conferencing will probably never totally replace regular meetings, but C.C.C.E. recently suggested the Division of Chemical Education sponsor such meetings on a regular basis. We also proposed that another chemical education computer conference be held during the summer of 1995. In addition, we proposed that the Executive Committee of the ACS Division of Chemical Education hold an open on-line meeting during the summer of 1994. This meeting would provide an opportunity for the Executive Committee to describe Division activities, accomplishments and problems and to solicit suggestions from Division members. Participants in the conference would have an opportunity to ask questions and make suggestions on-line. Both these initiatives will be considered at the ACS meeting in Chicago within a few days. The technology for computer conferencing will improve during the next few years. More chemists will learn how to use electronic mail and realize the rewards which the use of electronic mail offers. I hope many of you will assist in this effort. Donald Rosenthal Chair, C.C.C.E. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 09:49:38 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Moving Files >As a matter of fact, I use (and like) Pine myself. It is >a UNIX host-based system, accessed via vt100 terminal session, >but it does have a built-in editor and several nice features. > >> Are these attachments "standardized" so that they could be >> read by other e-mail software? > >Certainly text attachments can be read by other software. >But if a Pine message with a binary attachment is received >by a non-MIME-compliant mail program, it just lists >the binary attachment as "BASE64" encoded text after the >main body of the message. I have not yet learned what to do >with this BASE64 encoded text. That is like the case of the Microsoft mail attachments that don't work except with MS mail. > >The other problem is that if you want to attach a file from >your local file system, you must first upload the file to >the file syustem of the host, then attach it to an outgoing >Pine message. Pine, like most host software, has no knowledge >of your local file system. For that, you need client software that >is smarter than a vt100 terminal emulator. That is why I keep puching Eudora and NuPop -- you can't beat the price -- free and since they use the same protocol for attachments, Mac and PC files are readily exchanged. NuPop is DOS based so it will satisfy thenon GUI people but it can be used with windows as well, and if you attach a windows document, and are running windows you get the full GUI benefits of the material received. >Tom O'Haver Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 09:48:00 EDT From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: TOPIC PRIMARY FACILITATORS AND DISCUSSION OF TOPICS Based upon messages received the following are willing to serve as Primary Facilitators: A. New Tools vs Old Methods - Harry Pence B. The Use of Networks and Electronic Mail - Carl Snyder C. What Chemists (or Chemistry Students) Need to Know - Anthony Rosati D. The Use of Simulations - Gary L. Bertrand E. Testing - Reed Howald -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone wishing to serve as co-facilitator should contact the chair rather than the list. The discussion schedule is as follows: Week beginning August 30 - Discussion of New Tools vs Old Tools Week of September 6 - Networks and Electronic Mail Week of September 13 - What Chemists (Chemistry Students) Need to Know . . Week of September 20 - Simulations -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would suggest that the facilitators manage these sessions. Early on the first day (or even the Sunday before) transmit a statement indicating what information you'd like to have from participants -e.g. software, references, answers to specific questions, etc. The week is yours to handle in any way you deem appropriate. Ignore my suggestions, if they seem inappropriate or you wish to do it differently. Don Rosenthal ROSEN1@CLVM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 09:34:07 CDT From: William Halpern Subject: Subscribing to CHEMED-L I am enclosing information on subscribing to CHEMED-L@UWF.BITNET. CHEMED-L and CHEMCONF are two excellent examples of the need for the Chemistry Education community to communicate. The two lists complement each other, CHEMCONF for its discussion of specific topics, and CHEMED-L for its treatment of general concerns. CHEMED-L@UWF CHEMISTRY EDUCATION DISCUSSION LIST ON BITNET A computer list has been established on BITNET for discussion of current problems, ideas, and questions in Chemistry Education. If you are a member of the list, you can submit notes through INTERNET or BITNET which will be read by all other subscribers. You will also receive all items sent to CHEMED-L by the others on the list. CHEMED-L is a great place to find out information about experiments, teaching techniques, programs, and resources. The list also will give you a forum in which to share your ideas on the above topics. To join CHEMED-L, send a note to LISTSERV@UWF.BITNET. The first line should read: SUBSCRIBE CHEMED-L If your computer has the "TELL" command, send: TELL LISTSERV@UWF SUBSCRIBE CHEMED-L Please note that you must send the subscription to LISTSERV@UWF, not CHEMED-L. If you have any problems, let me know: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ WILLIAM P. HALPERN BITNET: DEPARTMENT OF CHEMISTRY INTERNET: UNIVERSITY OF WEST FLORIDA PHONE:(904)433-3846 PENSACOLA, FL 32514 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 11:38:45 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: Moving Files >As a matter of fact, I use (and like) Pine myself. It is >a UNIX host-based system, accessed via vt100 terminal session, >but it does have a built-in editor and several nice features. > >> Are these attachments "standardized" so that they could be >> read by other e-mail software? > >Certainly text attachments can be read by other software. >But if a Pine message with a binary attachment is received >by a non-MIME-compliant mail program, it just lists >the binary attachment as "BASE64" encoded text after the >main body of the message. I have not yet learned what to do >with this BASE64 encoded text. Just a confirmation -- Rory Cory sent me a Pines attached document and that's what I got and none of my utilities would make an sense of it -- diferent coding it looks like compared to Microsoft mail but if anyone is Uising microsoft Mail they and the Pines people might well do a test with each other. > Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 12:28:06 -0400 Reply-To: "Mark E. Jensen" From: "Mark E. Jensen" Subject: Re: Moving Files In-Reply-To: <9308201602.AA23070@umd5.umd.edu> On Fri, 20 Aug 1993, Jack Martin Miller wrote: > > Just a confirmation -- Rory Cory sent me a Pines attached document and > that's what I got and none of my utilities would make an sense of it -- > diferent coding it looks like compared to Microsoft mail but if anyone is > Uising microsoft Mail they and the Pines people might well do a test with > each other. Hello, Pine is "free" and available at an FTP site at the U of Washington. I haven't installed it, but I imagine one would only need Unix at the mail receiving site. If one had SLIP then it could be on the personal machine. I have discovered that the MIME encoding is not uuencoding, but it seems the Elm reader is capable of decoding Pine binary attachments, however, I have been unable to "figure-out" how to send attachments with Elm. BTW Pine means something like Pine Is Note Elm, reflective of Gnu's Gnu's Not Unix (some consider Gnu the Leader of the Freebie World). Sending ascii as attachments seems to simply "read-in" the file and is convenient, Mime compatability doesn't seem necessary. O'Reilly & Associates are publishers of a fairly extensive collection of Internet/Unix books. I just received an e-mail catalog by writing order@ora.com. However, if you email me I will forward my copy. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 13:21:57 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: NuPop and Eudora I've had several rrequests for information on where to get Eudora or NuPop so here's the information in the clear rather than burried in the middle of a discussion. NUPop is available on various internet archive sites and can be downloaded from the ftp site "ftp.acns.nwu.edu" in the /pub/nupop directory logging in as anonymous. Eudora is also available from from the popular internet sites and is also at "ftp.qualcomm.com". Both of these programs use the "attachment" or "enclosure" in order to move formatted documents. They are compatible because both programs use binhex to encode and decode the document(s). Both programs are freeware. jack Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 14:43:59 -0400 From: "Thomas C. O'Haver" Subject: Re: NuPop and Eudora In-Reply-To: <9308201818.AA03156@umd5.umd.edu> Prof. Miller, Can you tell us more about the host system requirements of Eudora and NuPop? Do they work with UNIX hosts? Do they need special host software, or do they use the standard mail file like host-based mail readers such as Pine? What about people whose accounts are on VMS or other non-UNIX hosts? Can Eudora and NuPop connect with the host via modem dial-up lines as well as over a LAN (e.g. Ethernet)? Tom O'Haver ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 15:22:15 -0400 From: Jack Martin Miller Subject: Re: NuPop and Eudora In response to Tom's questions: >Prof. Miller, >Can you tell us more about the host system requirements of >Eudora and NuPop? Do they work with UNIX hosts? Yes --- we're using Silicon Graphic Challenge, 4D340s, Iris' and Indigos as hosts. Do they >need special host software, Sorry -- I may have given people a bum steer -- I thought they worked directly with the standard UNIX mail stuff --- however on double checking I'm told they need the POPER DAEMON -- poper 3 I think is the current one. or do they use the standard >mail file like host-based mail readers such as Pine? What >about people whose accounts are on VMS or other non-UNIX >hosts? Some of our Computer Scientists maintain their e-mail acounts on a VMS VAX -- I don't know if the use Eudora and NuPop directly or with a dot-forward to the UNIX boxes. The VAX manager is back Monday -- I'll double check with him along with any other hidden wrinkles I've not told you about -- I guess I'm spoiled having a compentant system administrator in Computer science as well a good relations with the user services people in the computer center. I'llalso find out about non UNX and non VAX hosts and report back to everyone. Can Eudora and NuPop connect with the host via >modem dial-up lines as well as over a LAN (e.g. Ethernet)? I use my Mac Powerbook with modem all the time from home via Appletalk Remote Access which gives me full Mac GUI access to our UNIX network, my office Mac, on campus MacJanet networks, Internet and gopher etc via a serial internet protocol which is also available in other Mac terminal programs such as Versa-term pro. Itwas great -- I had to FAX a colleague in Australia (not yet on e-mail) I Gophered to his University, looked up his FAX number in their phonebook and then FAXED to Australia with the FAX modem in the powerbook. I checked with one of my technicians who uses a PC at home and says he uses NuPop all the time -- it has serial capabilities built in. Jack Martin Miller Professor of Chemistry ex-Chair, Computer Science Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1. Phone (416) 688 5550, ext 3402 FAX (416) 682 9020 e-mail jmiller@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 20:04:59 -0400 From: HARRY PENCE Subject: simulations John Pojman says: >Anyway, my concern is out of concern for cost, we neglect our real mission. >This is not to say simulations can not play a role, but they should >not replace experimentation. My concern is that in some fields simlulations are, indeed, used in place of experiments, because there is no way to perform the experiments. For example, many of the large-scale pollution predictions (i.e. ozone depletion, etc.) are based on simulations. The experts in the field may understand the types of simplifications made in the simulation and what levels of uncertainty this produces in the resulting predictions, but the public, including many of our students, don't clearly see that the simulations are not the same as experimental predictions. I suggest that if our students learn to use simulations, especially in cases where the simplifications cause significant errors in the predictions, they would be better able to evaluate arguments based on simulations and more likely to ask essential questions, such as, what are the simplifications involved. In modern chemistry, understanding and using simulations effectively may be just as important (sometimes even more so) than working with burets and flasks in the lab. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Harry E. Pence BITNET: PENCEHE@SNYONEVA | | Professor of Chemistry PHONE: 607-436-3179 | | SUNY Oneonta FAX: 607-436-2107 | | Oneonta, NY 13820 | ____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 10:42:06 EST From: Robert Blakeley Subject: Re: TOPIC PRIMARY FACILITATORS AND DISCUSSION OF TOPICS > >The discussion schedule is as follows: Sounds great! I'd like to suggest that you start by reminding the less network-literate among us how to post a letter to everybody as opposed to emailing a specific person. Robert L. Blakeley Tel 61-7 365 4612 Fax 61-7 365 4699 Department of Biochemistry email blakeley@biosci.uq.oz.au University of Queensland Brisbane, Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 11:06:02 EST From: Robert Blakeley Subject: Re: NuPop and Eudora >Prof. Miller, >Can you tell us more about the host system requirements of >Eudora and NuPop? Do they work with UNIX hosts? Eudora does. It works superbly on a Macintosh LC II. >Can Eudora and NuPop connect with the host via >modem dial-up lines as well as over a LAN (e.g. Ethernet)? > >Tom O'Haver MacSLIP (Serial Line IP) is reported to be a boon to Powerbook owners, because you can take Eudora home and use all your normal email address files from home via modem. To quote the supplier "Instead of running a single terminal emulator session over your serial port, MacSLIP allows you to run simultaneous Telnet, FTP, News, Mail and other MacTCP based applications" via modem. Local professional computer jockeys make the following comments: (1) It likes digital telephone networks, but will occasionally drop out when used on noisy or very busy analog exchanges. Uninterrupted usage thus far varies from 1.5 minutes to 1.5 hours or thereaboauts. (Other people claim the same problems with single serial connections via modem using Kermit.) (2) The cost of MacSLIP's versatility is a roughly 3:l overhead in terms of bandwidth (i.e., bits transmitted per second). It therefore will seem much more satisfactory on a 9600 baude modem than on a slower one. Questions and pricing are available from info@hydepark.com I have ordered one, but haven't yet tried it myself. Robert L. Blakeley Tel 61-7 365 4612 Fax 61-7 365 4699 Department of Biochemistry email blakeley@biosci.uq.oz.au University of Queensland Brisbane, Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 06:42:00 EDT From: to2 Subject: CHEMCONF '93 concluded CHEMCONF '93 is now officially concluded. I thank you all for your participation in this highly successful experiment. The CHEMCONF listserv and FTP site will remain active for the purpose of developing the special topic papers, as described by Don Rosenthal. Those of you who wish to participate in the discussion of the special topic papers may remain signed on to CHEMCONF. Those of you who wish to sign off the list should send email to LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU or LISTSERV@UMDD.BITNET containing the message SIGNOFF CHEMCONF Don't forget to send in your evaluations. If the evaluation form we provided is too complex or detailed, then simply send me a short message with your comments, observations, and suggestions for the future. Your feedback is important. After the 1994 meeting of the International Chemometrics Society, the CHEMCONF system will be available for other on-line conferences. Anyone who wished to organize a future conference should contact Don Rosenthal or myself. Have a great '93-'94 academic year. Prof. Thomas C. O'Haver Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 to2@umail.umd.edu (301) 405-1831 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 09:52:49 -0400 From: "Mark E. Jensen" Subject: Re: NuPop and Eudora In-Reply-To: <9308202033.AA02969@umd5.umd.edu> Hello, I left a message in the newsgroup comp.mail a while ago and got a message from the author of Eudora, about a pc version; I think he is the author of this program also. I never persued his information. I am not a MacIntosh user but read a review of a book about MacIntosh/Internet connectivity in the strongly personal computer oriented Monday Washington Post Business section last week. Unfortunately I did not save the section, but think subscribers here may appreciate being alerted to the fact that such a volume exists. I want to say it is from Vedanta Press but think the publisher is Ventura something. It was very favorably reviewed. -Mark recent MS grad UMAB ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 10:12:17 -0500 From: "Alfred J. Lata" Subject: A CHEMCONF Participant's Thanks As CHEMCONF participant, and on behalf of all of us (forgive my presumption) our sincere thanks to Tom O'Haver for his organization and coordination Don Rosenthal for his able assistance and encouragement The Authors for their submissions, expertise, and time All you conferees for your time, input, and responses The University of Maryland for being our host You all have made us pioneers: We salute you. Alfred Lata lata@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 09:28:35 MDT From: Ransirimal Fernando Subject: Re: A CHEMCONF Participant's Thanks In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 21 Aug 1993 10:12:17 -0500 from I like to join Dr. Lata in thanking CHEMCONF organizers. As I found out earlier during the trial session, I was a "luker" than an active participant. At a time there is not enough money for many Grad Students to attend conferences, this mode of conferencing will fill a much needed gap. Though it is not the same as listning to a speaker on a podium, in a way an Email message read on a terminal has a more pronounced personality(?). It is like reading a letter addressed to you, while the talk at the conference may not be far from a TV newscast. This is strictly a luker's point of view. I like to stress the chance for Graduate Students, PDF's etc. to talk with leaders of the pack at a one to one basis. Overall I learned a lot. It has changed many of my preceptions about teaching. Also it has generated an interest in me to pursue a teaching career. Thank You. Angelo R. Fernando. "One of the lurkers" ************************************************************************* ANGELO RANSIRIMAL FERNANDO DEPT. OF CHEMISTRY, UOFA, EDMONTON, ALBERTA, CANADA. T6G 2G2. || || ||===++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RSM <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<++===|| || || *EVERY REACTION IS A CHAIN REACTION* ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 12:15:31 EDT From: Jim Holler Subject: Re: A CHEMCONF Participant's Thanks In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 21 Aug 1993 09:28:35 MDT from Congratulations and thanks to all persons connected with the conference. It was definitely an experience at the cutting edge. It is breathtaking to think of all we have to look forward to as the art and science of communication improves exponentially. It has been a trip. Thanks again. Jim Holler Phone: 606-257-5884 Department of Chemistry FAX: 606-258-1069 University of Kentucky Email: HOLLER@UKCC.UKY.EDU Lexington, KY 40506 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 12:33:33 -0400 From: "Frank W. Darrow" Subject: Re: A CHEMCONF Participant's Thanks I join Al Lata in saying thanks, thanks, thanks. This has been, and continues to be, just plain super. I look forward to the ongoing discusssion, and to future conferences. Colleagues around the world - wow! ---------- Frank W. Darrow, Chemistry Dept., Ithaca College, Ithaca, NY 14850 Darrow@Ithaca.BitNet (607) 274-3991 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 13:08:46 -0400 From: "Mark E. Jensen" Subject: Eudora Here is some info I found about PC Eudora. In article , you wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about Eudora? I read there is a PC version. I > have a pc, but downloaded a mac copy for a friend's mac, but got rid of it PC Eudora is a Windows sockets compliant versino of Eudora that is virtually identical to its Macintosh counterpart. For information on where to obtain it, and how to set it up, ftp netcom1.netcom.com, get /pub/mailcom/IBMTCP/ibmtcp.zip. Bernard Aboba Author of "Bulletin Boards and Beyond" Internet: aboba@world.std.com FidoNet: 1:161/445 MailCom, 5337 College Ave., Suite 326, Oakland, CA 94618 Fax: (510)540-1057 --- As the above is nonprivate, noncontroversial, public information from an author I am taking the liberty to upload it to this group without prior permission. I apologize before hand if netiquette is breached. -Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 13:42:28 -0400 From: "Mark E. Jensen" Subject: Mac Internet Tour Guide Wash Post Business August 16, 1993 page 20 book/disk The Mac Internet Tour Guide $27.95 Ventana Press 1-800-743-5369 (919) 942-0220 Sorry, I didn't post this earlier. -Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 14:59:59 EDT From: "Frank M. Lanzafame" Subject: Thanks -- an echo Alfred Lata writes: > As CHEMCONF participant, and on behalf of all of us (forgive my > presumption) our sincere thanks to > Tom O'Haver for his organization and coordination > Don Rosenthal for his able assistance and encouragement > The Authors for their submissions, expertise, and time > All you conferees for your time, input, and responses > The University of Maryland for being our host Well stated and there is no presumption here. I very much appreciate everyone's efforts and would like to echo Alfred Lata's comments. A special thanks to Tom for all his help and patience. I don't know how he has manage to do the organizing, contributing to the discussion, and still cheerfully respond to the many requests for help. It is interesting that even without the face to face contact of a "site" conference or hearing a voice, I found myself being able to identify a number of people by their writing before getting to the signature. I do have the feeling I have "met" many of you and have some new colleagues across the network. It has been thought provoking and stimulating. Thank you all. I can't wait for the next one. Regards, ----------------------------------------------------------- | Frank M. Lanzafame Department of Chemistry | | Monroe Community College 1000 East Henrietta Rd. | | Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2000 Ext. 5130 | | Internet: flanzafame@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu | -----------------------------------------------------------